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Theme Changer

 Topic: Grooming of young white girls

 (Read 14937 times)
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  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #90 - March 27, 2017, 12:57 PM

    The BBC and the guardian seem to have appointed themselves the defenders of islam. That helps.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #91 - March 27, 2017, 01:14 PM

    Quod I more in agreement with you than with Unifier. I am especially concerned about that illusory alliance between the Islamists and "liberals". I don't think I have anything to add or criticize here. At least nothing I can think of at the moment.


    I'm actually more in agreement with Quod than I am with myself!!  One of my main reasons for joining this site was to educate myself ... and its happening.

    I don't want to defend the liberal regressives too much - they mean well, at least some do, and there is a little damned if you do and damned if you don't ... don't you think?   In other words the Gordon Murray, Peter Hitchens types are not palatable ... ok ... and the pandering idiot regressive liberals are not.  Struggling to find that elusive middle ground.

    Lovely to hear what you say about the average Muslim person.   I believe you and it ties with my personal experience.   That's it for now.

  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #92 - March 27, 2017, 01:36 PM

    It's also the reason I personally don't have a problem with "islam" (quotation marks intended Grin). The reason I feel it's not a threat is that islam isn't one thing. It is, as all ideologies and philosophies are, in the eye of the beholder. Muslims find ways to come to terms with the shit in the quran and hadiths in exactly the same way christians and jews do with the bible. While I criticise doctrine I'm aware that the vast majority either find alternate meanings, think it was intended for a specific time and place and is no longer relevant, or simply ignore it. I'm no more afraid of the muslim family down the street than I am a jew/christian seeing me mowing the grass on a Sunday and thinking "Working on the sabbath? I really should kill him". It's just not the mentality.

    We're already seeing western interpretations, I would say distinct western styles, of islam emerging. For example there are plenty of American muslims who are proud Americans and see the US constitution perfectly compatible with sharia. This is why so many islamic extremists are desperate to create an us vs them mentality and do whatever they can to isolate them. You can't be born into a society of mostly non muslims, people who are your friends, your teachers, your colleagues, your milkman, and have hostility towards them. You can't not notice these are real people just like you, good people, kind people, and not have it shape your religious views, which is contributing to these uniquely western flavours of the islamic religion. They deserve our support.

    Islam is no more or less a threat then any ideology, and having this anti islam/muslim narrative does nothing but leave the muslims we should be supporting feeling they have nowhere to turn and that they have to choose between being American/British/whatever and being muslim, and indeed plays directly into the hands of the villains.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #93 - March 27, 2017, 02:02 PM

    You are making me starry eyed!   A few decades ago during the David Dinkins mayoralty in New York (so around 1989 or 1990) we had a situation here in Brooklyn
    where a Korean grocery store clerk had offended a Haitian woman customer by avoiding hand contact when giving her change.  Korean culture discourages casual hand contact.

    Insult was taken, the racial arsonists got involved and the store faced a boycott by many in the community and a group of chanting demonstrators a daily nuisance.

    My Church in Brooklyn organized and interfaith, inter-racial march of peace and reconciliation that simply walked around the block.   What the Dinkins administration had failed to resolve over several weeks was brought to peaceful resolution by this simple public gesture.

    We need peace demonstrations now so badly to provide an example and reduce tensions - but need to keep the political extremes of both varieties out of it.

  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #94 - March 27, 2017, 02:16 PM

    Starry eyed in what way?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #95 - March 27, 2017, 02:18 PM

    Hopeful.  The Western perspective is very pessimistic at the moment and in some cases very dark.

  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #96 - March 27, 2017, 02:32 PM

    What annoys me is these people who scream about how wonderful western values are that seem completely oblivious to how they'd violate those same values in the aim of preserving them. Like those people who say "We'll build a mosque here when Saudi Arabia builds a church there". Seriously? You want to model this country on Saudi fucking Arabia? And since when are western citizens responsible for the action of a foreign theocratic government? Honestly if these people had their way they'd turn the western world into an autocratic shit-hole. All in the name of freedom of course.

    As someone who actually does believe in and support western values, these people do not and never will speak for me.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #97 - March 27, 2017, 02:50 PM

    I appreciate your passion and anger ... its felt on all sides of the issue.   There are only 2 ways to go forward - the hard way or the peaceful way.
    Robinson (Waxley-Lennon) claims he is doing what he is doing with Pegida in order to avoid a future of unmitigated violence.   He may or may not be
    disingenuous but I know several people in Holland and France who I consider pretty calm, collected and peaceful who have made statements predicting civil war I find shocking.

    Suppose inter-faith peace demonstrations could be organized (inclusive of secular people of course) that attract hundreds of thousands.  Wouldn't that be a good thing in this situation?

  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #98 - March 27, 2017, 02:57 PM

    Or, you know, stop confusing religion with racism and treat everyone equally. I disagree with you that those are the only two options. Also, I wish ex-muslims were given more of a public platform. Having been once muslims themselves and going through what it's like to be muslim, and most of them still having loved ones, friends and family, who are muslim, they provide a very balanced perspective.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #99 - March 27, 2017, 03:05 PM

    Bear in mind you understand your community in a way no outsider could.  Most Westerners (myself included) are captive to media accounts.   The Muslim community doesn't help its own cause by being so inward looking.   Is there, to pick a random example anything equivalent to 'Meet The Khumars' on British tv involving a muslim family.    I'm a fan of Omid Djalili for example.  Loved his movie.    I'm not a big fan of a lot of inter-faith dialogue because it usually involves  small groups and endless talking to no particular end.

    But a demonstration of unity, shared values could make a powerful statement.  Would need careful organizing.  I do know people in UK who could possibly put something like that together.

  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #100 - March 27, 2017, 03:06 PM

    It's not my community. I'm a white never-muslim westerner.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #101 - March 27, 2017, 03:09 PM

    Why the name 'King of the Ex-Muslim'  ?

  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #102 - March 27, 2017, 03:15 PM

    Because I rule supreme. I have awoken from the past, glenfully within the shadows over England's bitter skies. I prize mine wounds in a soil sweated drink. Remember me as King when I cradle Hell to stars. Like lovers in my arms, nestled vipers to my breast. Venomous forces workthius arts of devil's and priestess. Thus I shall rule anew through the sinews of a song. played upon a storm by the ghosts of Avalon. And all in league will bow to me, from death they shall ascend. To whisper weals of war to stir the dark once in men. The principle black metal master plan.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #103 - March 27, 2017, 03:17 PM

    Got it.

  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #104 - March 27, 2017, 03:23 PM

    Also, my name here is Quod Sum Eris. King of the Ex-Muslim is my description.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #105 - March 27, 2017, 04:07 PM

    the vast majority of muslims, who are perfectly ordinary people just keeping their heads down, minding their own business, and often trying to fight oppression and live the lives so many of us take for granted without fear or shame


    Having been once muslims themselves and going through what it's like to be muslim, and most of them still having loved ones, friends and family, who are muslim


    I'm not sure if I need to point this out after my other posts, but the reason you initially received some hostility is exactly because of this. When you talk about "defeating islam", not only are you playing into the idea of islam as this monolithic body without distinction, you're talking about peoples friends, their mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters, even children. The reaction you got may have seemed unwarranted to you, but it's completely understandable. I don't say this with hostility, I say it taking you at your word you want to educate yourself. You can't tell someone you're on the same side and in the same breath demonise those they love the most. Even if ex-muslims did exist in a non islamic vacuum, the comments are a bit un-British, and indeed un-American aren't they? More in line with 1930's Germany.

    Again, genuinely not said with hostility.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #106 - March 27, 2017, 04:21 PM

    Your point is taken ... my mode of expression could have been interpreted as anti muslim, rather than anti-islam.  I apologize unreservedly to any who I offended.

    I ramain anti-islam - the doctrine, not the innocent followers.  I also acknowledge that there are many wonderful muslim people who
    have somehow found peace and enlightenment via Islam.   Yusuf Islam (former Cat Stevens) is a lovely bloke and there are millions like him.
    That fact challenges my prejudice against the doctrine and I acknowledge that - still digging into the doctrine and the cultural factors that contribute forward
    the violent and triumphalist practitioners of the faith.

    A technical / theological distinction has to be made between violent passages of Koran vs Bible.  The biblical versus are all in the Old Testament and were limited to instructions from God to the Jewish people for limited ends.   Jesus in the New Testament (and Christians refer to it as 'New' because it clarified and progressed the relationship of God to man) preached and practiced peace.  The sermons, parables and life example of a Messiah who accepted violent and painful death as opposed to any other course is what Christians absorb and reflect on.   Any chronological distinction in the Koran operates in reverse fashion.  The Medina period is later than the Mecca period, and the violent acts and instructions come from the later Warlord part of Mohamed's life.

    So, yes ordinary Muslims find ways to ignore those violent admonitions, but clearly there are millions who do not.   And that is one of the main reasons I consider the doctrine pernicious and false.


  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #107 - March 27, 2017, 04:44 PM

    Your comments prove my point. Take a trip to the middle east or Africa and you'll find christians as militant as any islamist. If western christians can do this why can't western muslims? And again, you're saying islam. Which islam? The peaceful, 100% compatible with the western world islam my plumber believes in? The humanitarian pro-charity islam my neighbour believes in? The live and let live, to you your religion to me mine a friend of mine believes in? The pro-woman, anti-sexist islam muslim feminists believe in? The religion of tolerance and justice American muslims believe in who see the US Constitution as perfectly inline with the islam they believe in?

    Why? What's wrong with these islams?

    I don't like the KKK or the Westboro Baptist Church. I assume you'll join me in the fight to tear down that church in Brooklyn you mentioned?

    Also, forgot to respond to this.

    Is there, to pick a random example anything equivalent to 'Meet The Khumars' on British tv involving a muslim family.


    Citizen Khan.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #108 - March 27, 2017, 05:32 PM

    I don't know if you are deliberately missing my point because I'm feeling I've already answered your questions.  And I'm not sure what point of yours you believe I am proving.   I have tried to answer your questions as honestly as I can   If you are asking me whether Christians have behaved in violent and depraved acts the answer is of course yes.  But you seem to derive a symmetry that  renders any further thought or discussion redundant, and I am not in agreement.

    It is not a question of moral equivalence or my looking down on one group while excusing another.  We are not currently experiencing the
    number and type of acts of depraved violence against the innocent being perpetrated by extremist jihadis acting in the name of Islam from
    any other group - religious or secular.   The forum where we are conducting this exchange exists because of the peculiar difficulties and dangers
    for a person leaving Islam.  Are there similar national sites to provide assistance people leaving any Chrisitian, Jewish, Hindu or Buddist sect?  And if you
    happen to know of one, it doesn't alter the fact that Muslim sites are needed across continents.   The scale of the problem is greater at the moment within
    Islam.

    As I've already stated I believe the doctrines: Koran, Hadith and derived legal codes are of questionable origin and value - yet they are deemed sacred and one criticizes them at the risk of losing one's life - Charlie Hebdo.   I don't know if you have read any of the recent historical analysis of Islam and its origins:  Holland, Hoyland, Puig and others?  There are no definitive conclusions yet - but the foundations of traditional Islamic understanding about the origins of the Koran, the Hadiths and the life of Mohamed are being shaken by the roots.   I am for truth plain and simple and am just stating my understanding.   

  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #109 - March 27, 2017, 06:26 PM

    For every vile sura or hadith you can show me I can show you one of peace and love. I'm also pretty sure I could hold an argument with you on your claim the old testament no longer applies, or maybe we can talk about why jews aren't doing what the OT commands as they have no NT.

    I'm not sure of your current religious beliefs or lack thereof, but you really do come across as a life long atheist who has no experience in understanding the nuances of religious belief. As a believer/former believer you know perfectly well how people shape religion through their own eyes. My point with the KKK and Westboro (I won't go into the crimes against humanity christians are currently committing in the middle east and Africa and holding up a bible in justification) was to point out that, just as there is no such thing as christianity (singular) there are christianities (plural), there is no such thing as islam (singular), there are islams (plural). I've tried to communicate why being against "islam" isn't the way to go, and is indeed counter productive.

    They lump all muslims into a catagory the same way islamists do "the kaffirs". Islam is a threat to the west no matter what and are absolutly no ally


    Any muslim who stands up to islamists, insists on freedom of religion. the right to live your life as you see fit so long as you're not harming anyone and inside the law, is someone worth supporting.


    It's also the reason I personally don't have a problem with "islam" (quotation marks intended Grin). The reason I feel it's not a threat is that islam isn't one thing. It is, as all ideologies and philosophies are, in the eye of the beholder.


    Islam is no more or less a threat then any ideology, and having this anti islam/muslim narrative does nothing but leave the muslims we should be supporting feeling they have nowhere to turn and that they have to choose between being American/British/whatever and being muslim, and indeed plays directly into the hands of the villains.


    And of course you yourself agreed with me that islam isn't something to worry about.

    I also acknowledge that there are many wonderful muslim people who
    have somehow found peace and enlightenment via Islam.   Yusuf Islam (former Cat Stevens) is a lovely bloke and there are millions like him.


    I really don't understand why someone from a christian background, especially one in America who lives with some very twisted people, justifying their perversions through the exact same book you have, is struggling with the idea that islam isn't a concern, and certainly not something to rally against, but that specific extreme discriminatory interpretations of islam are.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #110 - March 27, 2017, 10:04 PM

    I think the larger issue here is that the position I want to take, or some other ex-Muslims want to take on Islam, always gets lumped together with what Tommy Robinson has to say. However, that doesn't mean that I find his positions to be completely nonsensical. Our positions diverge from the mainstream in similar directions and that may be one reason why some of my ex-Muslim friends agree with a small part of what he has to say. In the current climate people who take reasonable positions on Islam, like Maajid Nawaz, or I will argue Douglas Murray, are vilified for expressing ideas that I believe have merit.


    As I have stated in an earlier thread; I am mostly in agreement with Maajid Nawaz. My criticism of him is that he is not standing up to these far-right extremists the way he stands up to Islamist ones. Why does he feel the need to cosy up to and baby them, when they are just as bad? Is it any surprise that he is not winning support in the communities he wants to change? Murray is a separate issue, which I cba to go into right now.

    That is my main gripe; the fact that we end up getting associated with Yaxley-Lennon and his ilk. That is why I have no time for supporters of his who shove the likes of him down our throats and insist that we be friends. One of the main issues ex-Muslims seem to face is being alienated by their communities and losing families and friends. In most cases they are abandoned for the mere fact that they have let go of their childhood indoctrination, which is unacceptable, but these far-right idiots just make things worse. When they attempt to use us for their agenda, they reinforce the false claim that ex-Muslims turn anti-Muslim after leaving Islam.

    I know I would distance myself from a family member or "friend" who followed a guy who claimed that I was no different from an Islamist terrorist. Not only that, but he makes a career spreading these poisonous lies to my fellow countrymen/women, inciting hatred and bigotry towards me. So associating with the likes of him would do me no good, only harm.

    Even the most despicable of people will have made a few statements which you agree with. But you can still acknowledge that they are despicable.
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #111 - March 27, 2017, 10:10 PM

    I think we're now talking past each other, or the words are bouncing off.  I was enjoying our exchange for a while but
    honestly its become a bit tiresome.

    Yes there are nice verses in the 'holy' texts of Islam.  But the principle of abrogation accepted by senior Islamic
    scholars and evidently all jihadis states the later (chronologically) verse abrogates the earlier.   How many times are we told that
    jihad means 'inner spiritual struggle'.   Well of the approximately 100 hadiths discussing jihad it means overcoming an enemy in war.

    Your point about nice muslims ignoring the bad bits is redundant - I get that.  Most Muslims like most Christians are not well versed
    in their holy texts or have made a decision that archaic directions no longer apply.  How many times must I say I am not opposed to
    Muslims, I am opposed to the warlike, intolerant and widely held doctrines of the Koran and Hadith.

    Tomorrow I'll look up again the work of an Australian Anglican minister who has tracked the work of the IOC - who object to things like
    the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and have re-worked such threatening edicts to accommodate triumphalist Islam.  I'm done for the day.

    PS I do believe in God btw.  Never been an atheist.

  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #112 - March 28, 2017, 02:36 AM

    Technical details about abrogation of verses and all that doesn't really fly with those of us who read Quran as guidance. Because they never take those bits out, no one really ignores them.
    Those who have been formally educated by sheikhs here can step in and correct me, but did they really get told anything like "skip that verse"? My understanding is that you learn everything about the verse and the fact that it might be abrogated does not necessarily negate it, but that it IS applicable in rulings of fiqh. Surely a verse in a Divine book is still Divine and thus still worth consideration.
    Those who live severely strict and technical lives under layers of fiqh have a really rough time of it and usually come out into the light again eventually, like Yusuf Islam did. Following the strictest interpretation sucks your soul right out of you after a while.
    You can read Quran with tafsir, but that is not really reading Quran in my opinion. That is reading someone's interpretation of Quran. You can get some great historical context this way but you also lose sight of the entirety.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #113 - March 30, 2017, 07:47 AM

    Some people always got stupid shit to say at a wrong place expecting an agreement from a wrong audience. Nothing can be more stewpid than that.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #114 - April 04, 2017, 12:26 AM

    Tommy Robinson left EDL and joined Pegida, I see no difference. Hate is still there.
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #115 - August 10, 2017, 11:39 AM

    Another mass arrest has happened, this time in Newcastle. I used to live there and a friend says she recognised two of them as taxi drivers.

    I'm not sure if all of their victims were White, but it was this time it was "our people" who did the crime again. These men make me sick to my stomach.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/09/newcastle-sex-grooming-network-operation-shelter
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #116 - August 10, 2017, 07:12 PM

    AGWD says something with the word "Men"  :
      And  I see this picture at that link



    but i don't see any men in that picture dear GAWD ...AGWD...  AGirlWithDoubts...   you are mistaken....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Grooming of young white girls
     Reply #117 - August 11, 2017, 04:17 AM

    Found Waldo.
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