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Theme Changer

 Topic: Do some parents really love their children?

 (Read 12123 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Do some parents really love their children?
     OP - July 30, 2011, 10:48 PM

    I used to notice a trend amongst some very authoritative parents where they stress obedience far too much from the child. I am wondering because I read a PDF document on why not to reproduce where it mentioned some of the common arguments. But I really can't help but wonder if some parents actually love their children at all or just use them as some sort of 'trophy in production' rather than actually give them a gift of life. Now I know there can be a reason for it, which is that some want the best for their children but sometimes I wonder if that really is the case for a few people.

    "I measured the skies, now the shadows I measure,
    Sky-bound was the mind, earth-bound the body rests."
    [Kepler's epitaph]
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #1 - July 30, 2011, 10:57 PM

    You can never really tell what goes on in some peoples heads

    I would still say most controlling parents love their kids

    But there will no doubt be soem pshycos who just like being control freaks.
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #2 - July 30, 2011, 11:52 PM

    If I'm honest, I never really had the urge to have any children. I think I was always too scared of the responsibility of being a parent. But now I do have a child, I can fully understand what all the fuss is about..it's magical... it feels so right...and for me, it's what life is all about.

    Anyways, on topic: I wish the best for my kid. I don't want him to miss out on the things that I missed out on. I don't want him to ever feel the pain, the heartache, the loss, the suffering, or the loneliness that I have felt in my life on occasion. I don't want him to ever fail, or fall, or hurt, or cry, or long for anything or anyone... Does all of this mean that I am trying to reproduce the perfect life that I never had, in my child instead? Does it mean that I am using my child as a trophy child? I try not to look at it that way. Instead, I simply see it as wanting the best for my child, and doing all I can to make that happen.

    I could easily try to break down what I said above in purely biological and genetic terms. But thinking and talking like that detracts from some of the wonderful beauty and romance that life has to offer, so I wont go there on this occasion. What I will say is that maybe you can't be too harsh on seemingly controlling and driven parents? Maybe they are trying to achieve the exact same things for their child as I am for mine, as almost every parent is for their own child? Although their methods may be cruder, they are perhaps driven by the same urges as every other parent?

    That pdf file made me laugh btw MC.

    Hi
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #3 - July 31, 2011, 12:18 AM

    I wonder that too sometimes. I think they do love their kids but are pretty messed up and that means their 'love' is messed up too.
    I really don't know. I have always wondered about my parents' love since I was a child. But I guess now that I am older, I realise many people have psychological issues and unfortunately when they have children, it is the kids that bear the brunt of it.

  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #4 - July 31, 2011, 12:36 AM

    But I guess now that I am older, I realise many people have psychological issues and unfortunately when they have children, it is the kids that bear the brunt of it.


    Yep.

    I am sure my father loved me (not my mum cos she left when I was 4), but I know he had some serious psychological issues of his own.  I know a lot of people say that if someone is violent to you they can not love you, but I don't believe that.  I just think they have serious issues that need to be addressed.

    In turn I see a cycle developing with my kids that comes from my own issues, different issues, but then everyone, every parent, we all have different dramas inside to deal with.

    Having a child is sooooo easy most of the time, to make it, to give birth to it.  It can happen from so young aswell, long before people have even become self aware enough to realise that they are not ready to have kids.

    Anyway I think I'm off on a tangeant there.

    My main point is that i do believe they love their children, but love is always expressed differently.

    My sister is a control freak with her kids, they have no say, no voice, no opinion.  She is lord/lady,ruling monarch in her house, but I know she loves them.  She just has a very bad way of showing it.

    Love is a feeling, it is not a rational process most of the time.  It's just a feeling.  She can love them, feel that thing for them, but she can't rationalise that her behaviour doesn't match it.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #5 - July 31, 2011, 08:31 AM

    That pdf file made me laugh btw MC.


    What did you find funny?

    "I measured the skies, now the shadows I measure,
    Sky-bound was the mind, earth-bound the body rests."
    [Kepler's epitaph]
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #6 - July 31, 2011, 09:05 AM

    I am wondering because I read a PDF document on why not to reproduce...


    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #7 - July 31, 2011, 09:47 AM

    I'm rather reluctant to have children because of the way I was treated by my parents.

    My parents wanted me to be the best. By 'the best' they meant everything they missed out on, not me.
    Just because we shared genes, they thought only about what makes them happy and feel proud within their generation and community. Not me and mine.

    They wanted me to be an Imam and never allowed me to plough my way around life; I couldn't pick my own fucking hobbies!

    Throughout my childhood I felt that my parents really wanted me to not make their mistakes. But they also didn't let me make my own mistakes. I feel I had been instrumentalised and with all the things they gave me they were making their case for obedience stronger. Does that remind you of Allah?

    I also was incessantly made aware of the sacrifices they made and were making for me to have a good life. But I never asked for 'good life' nor were I consulted on the sacrifices. How can I be mean for not appreciating things that I wasn't asked about? Sorry but how do I know that I wasn't concieved accidentally?

    I know now that parenthood is about unconditional love and my parents' was a sort of self-enlargment. I think to myself 'if you are unable to love unconditionally, do not father".

    Chirstopher says: "To be the father of growing daughters is to understand something of what Yeats evokes with his imperishable phrase “terrible beauty. ”Nothing can make one so happily exhilarated or so frightened: it’s a solid lesson in the limitations of self to realize that your heart is running around inside someone else’s body." Hitch22 A memoir

  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #8 - July 31, 2011, 10:21 AM

    I think (a rather depressing thought) that there is no such thing as 'unconditional love'. All forms of love have strings attached and are motivated by personal and emotional and selfish reasons. Most of the time, it doesn't really matter since even though the motivations are a tad selfish, it all works out well in the end.

    One of the questions that always puzzles me - Would most people love a child that was not their own?
    I asked a friend once, why do people think of having their own kids when they think about parenthood... why isn't the first thought about adoption... the urge to procreate is natural, but surely rational thinking should take over and decide that there are already so many children on this planet dying (literally sometimes) for love and a parent, so adoption should seem like an effortless conclusion?
    But she said something along the lines of most people don't think they could love someone that wasn't that wasn't their flesh and blood in the same way ... is that true?  Huh?

    If that is true, then the 'unconditional' love instantly becomes 'conditional' because a child must share your genes before you will offer it your care and protection.

    I don't relate to human emotions in the same way as most people so it genuinely baffles me...

  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #9 - July 31, 2011, 10:24 AM



    Chirstopher says: "To be the father of growing daughters is to understand something of what Yeats evokes with his imperishable phrase “terrible beauty. ”Nothing can make one so happily exhilarated or so frightened: it’s a solid lesson in the limitations of self to realize that your heart is running around inside someone else’s body." Hitch22 A memoir




    This is so true.  I have never been more afraid as I have been since I became a mother.  I worry all the time.  I do feel like my heart is in danger all the time.  My nightmares are around not being able to save them, or losing them in some way.  This is what I hate about being a mother,  that at any moment something beyond my control could take one of them away from me.  It kills me.

    Quote
    I know now that parenthood is about unconditional love and my parents' was a sort of self-enlargment. I think to myself 'if you are unable to love unconditionally, do not father".


    I kind of disagree with this, there is no such thing as unconditional love.

    I want my children to be whatever they want to be, and even if they became muslims, as long as they still wanted me, they have me.  I wouldn't turn them away for those sort of choices.  I genuinely do love my kids, and I want to best for them. 

    I struggle at times with my wishes for them, and their choices for themselves, and the really hard choices have yet to begin.  Like how would I cope if my little girl grew up and said she wanted to be a porn star.  Could I handle that knowing that I wouldn't want that for her because I love her?  and yet my love for her means I would accept her choice much as I loathe it.

    However, my love IS conditional.  I know that if my children grew into psychopaths who raped, killed, or behaved in brutal cruel ways, I know my love would end.  Slowly my heart would break and yes, I would actively disown and walk away from them.

    I could not bear to see that in my children when they grow.

    Does that mean I shouldn't have had kids?  personally I don't think so.  I love my children, but there are somethings I can't love in this world.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #10 - July 31, 2011, 11:31 AM

    Since most of what constitutes love, IMHO, is acceptance, would it be okay if I said unconditional acceptance instead of love?
    Would it be too much to be accepted no matter what you turned out to be i.e. gay, atheist, don't want to be a doctor but an engineer or fisherman, vegan etc?

    Love, one sided love as in the case of a parent to a child, has nothing to do with approval, Ella. Your love for your children isn't errected on mutuality ( if that even a word) or agreement. You can be upset with your children if they do something wrong, but it does not mean you hate them or that your love is conditional. It appears to me that your approval is conditional and approval, an unfixed rational entity, isn't love.

    Your love for your children is particularistic, as Parson talcott might have said, and not universalistic. You didn't choose to love them, you just do because they're your flesh/children. An anthropologist might see it as part of self-love, which's again not an act of will.

    This also answers the question posed by Poopycock as to why don't people randomly love other people's children in principle or as much as their own. Other people's children lack the particularity of their own. There's no logical reason for this because fatherly love in particular is an illogical entity.

    However, when people bring up un-biological children, they tend to love them as their own, I don't know, maybe because they've put in the effort that they would put if they were raising their own, so they might as well do it full heartedly. But at the end, biology is certain and it wins.
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #11 - July 31, 2011, 11:48 AM

    One more thing.

    There are many parents, especially in the West, that do love their children for them. They negociate their relationship with their children and agree that there're no fixed hierarchies between two fallible beings. These parents love is hardly possessive; they might limit their kindness but they will never throw their children out in the middle of the night as it happened to me once or twice.

    These parents say 'I love you' meaning for your sake whilst mine said it meaning for their own sakes. This is because they used to tell me it and be very happy when I did what they wanted, not what I wanted.

    What I wanted isn't always necessarily wrong or 'perverted' but if I were a female and didn't agree to marry the husband they picked for me they would be livid and, yes you guessed it rightly, would disown me for it. This is indeed emotional blackmailing and the purest form of private despotism.

    To ensure my absolute obedience, my parents never apologised to me for the things they said they weren't right at, but they said that to other people. Apologies, my parents told me, were made by those who made mistakes and those who made mistakes were weak and lacking in strong will.

    They were essentially advocating for totalitarianism and I've always remembered verse 23 in sorat The Prophets. I sometimes find it extremely hard to apologise and would really like to be a biological determinist and say I took after them lol.

    Disownment isn't only a parental weapon, Ella. Children too can deploy it when they're old and independant and both parties would suffer equally. Those parents, who fail in communicating with their children that there are limits for their behaviours, are the only who pull the ' i will disown you' card every now and then ignoring it can be used against them too.  

    My Parents made themselves a 'reputation' for generosity and since I'm part of them, they reasoned, they wanted me to live up to it.  Why was my individuality taken away so that I fulfil 'the dreams of the past'? Love means to me that I do not chain my children or spouse with my dreams only or cheifly because that is self-enlragment and isn't remotely like what the selfish gene allows.

    Children and elderly people are social minorities and those who 'look after them' tend to foist their own individualities on them. It is imperative, at least, to be aware of that.
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #12 - July 31, 2011, 04:45 PM

    Okay, is this sort of psycho-analysis in the PDF just absolutely terrible?

    "I measured the skies, now the shadows I measure,
    Sky-bound was the mind, earth-bound the body rests."
    [Kepler's epitaph]
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #13 - July 31, 2011, 04:52 PM


    Disownment isn't only a parental weapon, Ella. Children too can deploy it when they're old and independant and both parties would suffer equally. Those parents, who fail in communicating with their children that there are limits for their behaviours, are the only who pull the ' i will disown you' card every now and then ignoring it can be used against them too.  




    I won't pull and I don't pull it, as in its not threat, its just the way things will be.  I will endeavour my hardest to raise children who do not rape, pillage and murder.  I won't raise them saying if you do this you're not my child anymore.  Empty threats are voiced more often than not with minimal effect so I won't waste time with that.

    As to children being able to do it, I have rejected my parents for not being the parents I believe they should have been.  If my children disown my then I know its my fault, and I have failed.  I think that's fair.

    I still don't accept that there is any such thing as unconditonal love or acceptance.  You need Jesus for that.  Grin

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #14 - July 31, 2011, 06:03 PM

    So you don't threat them, you just go ahead and disown them.
    Very interesting also that you talk about the matter as if nurture is only what makes us who we are, and not nature too.

    How we turn out isn't always an indicative of how well or badly our parents brought us up. Therefore, measuring one's parenthood through one's children is unreliable. Our children are the judge of our parenthood skills, wether they are successful in education, work and social life or they aren't.  

    It is very interesting when a child does really well in anything that some parents line up to take credit for it and when the child does something stupid or bad is it his own fault. Again, it is the duality of Allah and Satan in Islam when it comes to actions.

    I don't want to make personal to you, dear Ella, but I'd really really like to understand why would you or anyone disown their children?
    Is it a protestation and showing them that what they did is horrible, so it is a disciplinary action OR you will be disowning them becuase you don't want to be associted with, lets say, a murderer? Or is it a bit of both?

    Only if i were certian or absolute like you, I wouldn't asked. If I bring them to this life I believe i'm responsible for looking after them till they're adults and during that time I will be trying to find out what makes each and everyone of them happy and then try to achieve that. That is an integral part of what I mean by unconditional love.

    If a child of mine killed someone or raped them, I will definitely report them to the authority and get them properly punished, I don't see that as a reflection on my parenthood or that I failed and thereafter I need to disown them. That partly comes within what I call, self-enlargment.

    The same is the case when they do something extremely good or moral in their lives, I won't always be able to trace my personal contribution in it, apart from the gene, and thereafter love them more than the others (the oppsite of disownment).

    I reiterate; our children are the judge on us and what they say about us (not at times of fight or elation but normally) is what should count and not what they do.
     
    I still don't accept that there is any such thing as unconditonal love or acceptance.  You need Jesus for that.  Grin

    Astaghfuruallah and la hawla wala quwwata illa billah !! how could you say that in such a blissed night of Ramadan?
     And you say you don't accept it. Okay fine. I keel you.
     Cheesy
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #15 - July 31, 2011, 06:32 PM

    So you don't threat them, you just go ahead and disown them.
    Very interesting also that you talk about the matter as if nurture is only what makes us who we are, and not nature too.

    How we turn out isn't always an indicative of how well or badly our parents brought us up. Therefore, measuring one's parenthood through one's children is unreliable. Our children are the judge of our parenthood skills, wether they are successful in education, work and social life or they aren't.  


    Do you mean to say are NOT?  or have you gone from saying that I am wrong to say nurture counts, to saying that nurture does count?   wacko

    I think nature and nurture both play a part.  I am certainly not going to kick back defeated as nature deals every blow.  For each different nature in my children is a different nurture to offer.  Parenting is not one set a rules, it is a flexible, keep you on your toes, changeable thing, as you test one method and discard it or keep it depending on the result.

    Ie if my son swears at me and I revoke his xbox, he won't care, but if I revoke the pc, he will defintely get upset.  On the other hand my little girl could care less about pc time, and doesn't enjoy cinema trips as a reward but prefers to do arts and crafts.

    Its all different, but nature and nurture often go hand in hand as it is neither, or.

    Quote



    It is very interesting when a child does really well in anything that some parents line up to take credit for it and when the child does something stupid or bad is it his own fault. Again, it is the duality of Allah and Satan in Islam when it comes to actions.


    Why shouldn't they?  some gifts are innate no doubt and no one gets to take credit, but why shouldn't my dad take credit for teaching me to read before I went to school and thus setting me up to do better in school?

    Little things matter.  I could sit back and let nature take its course, let them learn at school and school alone and just see who does well and who doesn't, and really not give a fuck about my children's future.

    or better yet, I can proactively work to improve their chances by ensuring they have access to stuff they need, long before I really have to.

    If my boy is great at art, that has nothing to do with me, that is natural, but there are times in which cfredit is due and in actual fact there are times when children become adults and credit is given.

    As to blame, shift of onus, no.  I don't do that either.  When they behave bad, I will look and see what I am doing wrong.

    or do you put no stock in ideas like children being beaten will display behaviour problems, or a child growing up watching domestic violence occur daily, is not being nurtured to behave a specific way?

    because I do.  Therefore I will look to me first.  No dual nature nothing.  

    Quote

    I don't want to make personal to you, dear Ella, but I'd really really like to understand why would you or anyone disown their children?
    Is it a protestation and showing them that what they did is horrible, so it is a disciplinary action OR you will be disowning them becuase you don't want to be associted with, lets say, a murderer? Or is it a bit of both?


    If you mean go through the active process of disowning, or saying I disown you, I am not saying that.  I am saying that i would effectively stop trying, stop being there, stop filling a role of support and acceptance since I do not accept said behaviour.

    The door is open somewhere down the line should they change, serve out their time etc, but I am a bit sick of being told that as a mum I have a duty to accept and love another person simply because I gave birth to them, no matter what they do.

    You think it would be easy?  hell no.

    But it is nothing like rejecting my child for being gay, being an atheist, or living how they want, its about rejecting someone, irregardless of what relation they are, who is cruel to others and destroys lives.  

    If that makes me a fail mum who shouldn't have bred at all, simply because I won't sit here and spew expected words of unconditional love and acceptance, then so be it.  I honestly don't see it that way.  

    Quote

    Only if i were certian or absolute like you, I wouldn't asked. If I bring them to this life I believe i'm responsible for looking after them till they're adults and during that time I will be trying to find out what makes each and everyone of them happy and then try to achieve that. That is an integral part of what I mean by unconditional love.


    I said the same thing in regards to finding out what was important to them, but maybe you missed it.

    Quote

    If a child of mine killed someone or raped them, I will definitely report them to the authority and get them properly punished, I don't see that as a reflection on my parenthood or that I failed and thereafter I need to disown them. That partly comes within what I call, self-enlargment.  


    So the father who beats the crap out of his son, who then goes on to beat the crap out of his own son, is not to blame, infact if he sees blame in himself he is simply self enlarging?

    Yeah, I totally disagree with that.  Parenting DOES have an effect, it is not all nature.  Sure some things are nature, but by its very defintiion, nurture plays a massive part.

    What is social and cultural conditioning if not the end result of nurture and peer pressure?

    Quote

    The same is the case when they do something extremely good or moral in their lives, I won't always be able to trace my personal contribution in it, apart from the gene, and thereafter love them more than the others (the oppsite of disownment).

    I reiterate; our children are the judge on us and what they say about us (not at times of fight or elation but normally) is what should count and not what they do.


    Still disagree, even pedophilia can be often traced back to childhood rape of the pedo's own, ergo what they go on to do can often be found in what they have been taught.

    I think its a cop out to say you contributed nothing.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #16 - July 31, 2011, 06:50 PM

    I'm rather reluctant to have children because of the way I was treated by my parents.

    My parents wanted me to be the best. By 'the best' they meant everything they missed out on, not me.
    Just because we shared genes, they thought only about what makes them happy and feel proud within their generation and community. Not me and mine.

    They wanted me to be an Imam and never allowed me to plough my way around life; I couldn't pick my own fucking hobbies!

    Throughout my childhood I felt that my parents really wanted me to not make their mistakes. But they also didn't let me make my own mistakes. I feel I had been instrumentalised and with all the things they gave me they were making their case for obedience stronger. Does that remind you of Allah?

    I also was incessantly made aware of the sacrifices they made and were making for me to have a good life. But I never asked for 'good life' nor were I consulted on the sacrifices. How can I be mean for not appreciating things that I wasn't asked about? Sorry but how do I know that I wasn't concieved accidentally?  


    I know now that parenthood is about unconditional love and my parents' was a sort of self-enlargment. I think to myself 'if you are unable to love unconditionally, do not father".

    Chirstopher says: "To be the father of growing daughters is to understand something of what Yeats evokes with his imperishable phrase “terrible beauty. ”Nothing can make one so happily exhilarated or so frightened: it’s a solid lesson in the limitations of self to realize that your heart is running around inside someone else’s body." Hitch22 A memoir




    I could have sworn that was me you were talking about apart from being Imam, they wanted me to be a Military officer or an engineer.


    I think (a rather depressing thought) that there is no such thing as 'unconditional love'. All forms of love have strings attached and are motivated by personal and emotional and selfish reasons. Most of the time, it doesn't really matter since even though the motivations are a tad selfish, it all works out well in the end.

    One of the questions that always puzzles me - Would most people love a child that was not their own?
    I asked a friend once, why do people think of having their own kids when they think about parenthood... why isn't the first thought about adoption... the urge to procreate is natural, but surely rational thinking should take over and decide that there are already so many children on this planet dying (literally sometimes) for love and a parent, so adoption should seem like an effortless conclusion?
    But she said something along the lines of most people don't think they could love someone that wasn't that wasn't their flesh and blood in the same way ... is that true?  Huh?

    If that is true, then the 'unconditional' love instantly becomes 'conditional' because a child must share your genes before you will offer it your care and protection.

    I don't relate to human emotions in the same way as most people so it genuinely baffles me...



    I have come across that line of thinking as well. I have witness a common problem in a Hausa/Fulani Community(My ethnic group) that most men dont marry a barren women . It does make wonder why does it have to be a childbearing mother, i mean they are many orphans and homeless kids everywhere in Nigeria.

    Also i have seen some of my uncle and aunties from my paternal side not given the same treatment to their nephews and nieces (who lost their parents at their early age) as they give to their biological children, worse i have seen people treating orphans that are placed on their care turning them into a househelps and house maids. It pisses me off to see them doing that, i mean FFS its their nephews and nieces and it also makes me sad because it would have been me.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #17 - July 31, 2011, 07:28 PM

    Ella, I think you need to re-read what I typed. However, If you think you've fathomed what I said, then I say there's no need to go over the same ground and ,at least, we agree to disagree. A flower is for your heart, Ella.

    I struggle at times with my wishes for them, and their choices for themselves, and the really hard choices have yet to begin.  Like how would I cope if my little girl grew up and said she wanted to be a porn star. 

    For me this isn't even a question of coping. But that's the striking difference between me and you.
    If a daughter of mine decided to be a porn star, I'd definitely support her, wholeheartedly and unconditionally. I hate it and will tell her I don't like it but if that makes her happy and it is legal, I will tame my heart for her. Of that there's no doubt. Her porn work represents but herself and her desires. It doesn't represent me anymore than it would should she turned out to be a paragon of virtue - thats why I won't disown my children.

    My fatherly love and acceptance are unconditioned and unconditional. And as the German proverb goes 'blood is thicker than water'. I view children as individuals and independant of me and my wishes, I can only see myself as the centre of their universe when I think of them largely and mainly as extended parts of me in every sense.


    Let me quote you of John Stuart Mill's first paragarph in On Liberty :
    That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinions of others, to do so would be wise, or even right. These are good reasons for remonstrating with him, or reasoning with him, or persuading him, or entreating him, but not for compelling him, or visiting him with any evil in case he do otherwise. To justify that, the conduct from which it is desired to deter him must be calculated to produce evil to someone else. The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #18 - July 31, 2011, 08:53 PM

    Okay, is this sort of psycho-analysis in the PDF just absolutely terrible?


    I just assumed that it was a cynical and light-hearted attempt to make fun of some people's reasons for having children. Some of the humour within it made me smile, but obviously you seemed to have taken it more seriously than I did? The author himself concedes, in the blurb at the end, that perhaps he isn't the best person to judge on this topic.

    Even if the author had been more serious in his attempt to dissuade us from having children, and even if his reasoning had been more comprehensive, his argument wouldn't have washed with me. To try to stifle the urge to reproduce would be equivalent to stifling a fundamental human characteristic. It is part of what defines us as a species, and it is literally what makes us alive. I personally see it as being akin to arguing that life is futile, and that it should be discontinued, even in those that are currently alive. And I think I've seen this debate on another thread recently, so thankfully there is no need to depress ourselves by covering the same ground here?

    Fair enough, the author makes some valid points on some of the silly reasons given for wanting children. But IMO, these particular views are held by a minority of would-be parents. And I suspect many of these seemingly irresponsible parents are guilty only of being unable to justify, or sum-up succinctly enough, their primal need and desire to have children.



    MC: forgive me for talking shit on your thread...what's your opinion on the pdf? Can you relate any of it to your personal experiences?


    Hi
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #19 - July 31, 2011, 09:24 PM


    For me this isn't even a question of coping. But that's the striking difference between me and you.
    If a daughter of mine decided to be a porn star, I'd definitely support her, wholeheartedly and unconditionally. I hate it and will tell her I don't like it but if that makes her happy and it is legal, I will tame my heart for her. Of that there's no doubt. Her porn work represents but herself and her desires. It doesn't represent me anymore than it would should she turned out to be a paragon of virtue - thats why I won't disown my children.

    My fatherly love and acceptance are unconditioned and unconditional. And as the German proverb goes 'blood is thicker than water'. I view children as individuals and independant of me and my wishes, I can only see myself as the centre of their universe when I think of them largely and mainly as extended parts of me in every sense.


    Let me quote you of John Stuart Mill's first paragarph in On Liberty :
    That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinions of others, to do so would be wise, or even right. These are good reasons for remonstrating with him, or reasoning with him, or persuading him, or entreating him, but not for compelling him, or visiting him with any evil in case he do otherwise. To justify that, the conduct from which it is desired to deter him must be calculated to produce evil to someone else. The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.


    You know, re-read this:

    Quote
    Ella, I think you need to re-read what I typed. However, If you think you've fathomed what I said, then I say there's no need to go over the same ground and ,at least, we agree to disagree. A flower is for your heart, Ella.


    Its not even a case of we agree to disagree, its simply that you actually are not understanding what I am saying anymore.

    You misread me at every turn and I'm finding it tiring to be quite frank.

    I give up.

    Thanks for making me feel like a shitty parent.   Afro

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #20 - July 31, 2011, 09:34 PM

    what's your opinion on the pdf? Can you relate any of it to your personal experiences?


    I only read some of the really horrible reasons where I thought the author gave perfectly good counter-arguments like the case where parents think that children are property and that is quite reflective of what I feel and how my parents have been towards me as I'm concerned only about a few argumenets (i.e the treating children like property ones). I really don't know about the rest, I just want to serve humanity for some reason having a partner is too much, let alone bringing up an entire family. I just seem to be part apathetic and part presumptuous so I guess I have to give careful consideration some other time when I am more comfortable. The last sentence does not mean that you do not comment however you want.

    "I measured the skies, now the shadows I measure,
    Sky-bound was the mind, earth-bound the body rests."
    [Kepler's epitaph]
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #21 - July 31, 2011, 09:48 PM

    You know, re-read this:

    Its not even a case of we agree to disagree, its simply that you actually are not understanding what I am saying anymore.
    You misread me at every turn and I'm finding it tiring to be quite frank.
    I give up.
    Thanks for making me feel like a shitty parent.   Afro


    I'm sorry you feel that way, though I didn't intend it. Making it personal wasn't the wisest move on my part.
    I re-read your replies again before my last reply and nothing appeared to me which didn't previously.
    But probably I misread you as you said and I need more time to understand you.

    And yes if you read the first paragraph of the post with the 'I reiterate' bit at the end, where I said only what children say about us counts and not what they do in their own lives, your confusion is understandable. But I will leave my replies here unedited so that others, whom I hope I won't misread, might correct me.

    Sorry again.
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #22 - August 01, 2011, 05:33 AM

    Okay, is this sort of psycho-analysis in the PDF just absolutely terrible?

    I thought it was satire.

    Voluntary Human Extinction Movement (VHEMT) founded by Les U. Knight? Sounds like a really shit supervillain alliance straight out of a dodgy comic book.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #23 - August 01, 2011, 12:23 PM

     Cheesy
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #24 - August 01, 2011, 10:34 PM

    I imagine there are some people who don't love their children the way they should. But when I had my children, I remember that time when I fell in love with each one in the first few days of life, and that love has never waned, even though they are all adults and don't need me anymore. I believe that first love is called bonding and it a natural human reaction. I believe they love me too.
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #25 - August 03, 2011, 12:02 PM

    This Be The Verse:
     
    They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
    They may not mean to, but they do.
    They fill you with the faults they had
    And add some extra, just for you.

    But they were fucked up in their turn
    By fools in old-style hats and coats,
    Who half the time were soppy-stern
    And half at one another's throats.

    Man hands on misery to man.
    It deepens like a coastal shelf.
    Get out as early as you can,
    And don't have any kids yourself.

    -Philip Larkin
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #26 - August 03, 2011, 02:54 PM

    If unconditional love exists, it must be unconditional love for everyone.
  • Re: Do some parents really love their children?
     Reply #27 - August 05, 2011, 05:32 PM

    You need Jesus for that.  Grin


    I'm always here for ya.

    Formerly known as Iblis
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