Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway

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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #240 - April 17, 2012, 10:08 PM

Billy

Quote

Psychiatric evaluation

Breivik underwent examination by court-appointed forensic psychiatrists in the autumn of 2011. The psychiatrists diagnosed him with paranoid schizophrenia, concluding that he had developed the disorder over time and was psychotic both when he carried out the attacks and during the observation. He was also diagnosed with abuse of non-dependence-producing substances antecedent of 22 July. The psychiatrists consequently found Breivik to be criminally insane.[78][79]

According to the report, Breivik displayed inappropriate and blunted affect and a severe lack of empathy. He spoke incoherently in neologisms and had acted compulsively based on a universe of bizarre, grandiose and delusional thoughts. Breivik alluded himself as the future regent of Norway, master of life and death, while calling himself "inordinately loving" and "Europe's most perfect knight since WWII". He was convinced that he was a warrior in a "low intensity civil war" and had been chosen to save his people. To the psychiatrists, Breivik described plans to carry out further "executions of categories A, B and C traitors" by the thousands, themselves included, and to organise Norwegians in reservations for the purpose of selective breeding. Breivik believed himself to be the "knight Justiciar grand master" of a Templar organisation. He was deemed to be suicidal and homicidal by the psychiatrists.[78]

According to his defence attorney, Breivik initially expressed surprise and felt insulted by the conclusions in the report. He later stated that "this provides new opportunities".[80]

In Norway, the outcome of Breivik's competency evaluation has been fiercely debated by mental health experts over the court-appointed psychiatrists' opinion and the country's definition of criminal insanity.[81][82] An extended panel of experts from the Norwegian Board of Forensic Medicine reviewed the submitted report and approved it "with no significant remarks",[83] whereas the psychiatric medical staff in charge of treating prisoners at Ila Prison did not make any observation that suggested he suffered from either psychosis, depression or was suicidal. Rather he appeared to have personality disorders, according to senior psychiatrist Randi Rosenquist.[82][84][85] Counsels representing families and victims have filed requests that the court orders a second opinion, while the prosecuting authority and Breivik's lawyer do not want new experts to be appointed. He initially refused to cooperate with new psychiatrists.[86] He has later changed his mind and in late February a new period of psychiatric observation, this time more encompassing than the first period, was begun.

If the original diagnosis is upheld by the court it means that Anders Behring Breivik cannot be sentenced to prison. The prosecution may instead request that he be detained in a psychiatric hospital.[87] Medical advice will then determine whether or not the courts decide to release him at some later point. If considered a perpetual danger to society, Breivik can be kept in confinement for life.[88] Shortly after the second period of psychiatric observation prior to the trial was begun the prosecution stated that they expected that Breivik would be declared legally insane.[89].[90] However, on 10 April 2012 the second psychiatric evaluation was published with the conclusion that Breivik was not psychotic during the attacks and he was not psychotic during their evaluation.[15] Breivik expressed hope at being declared sane in a recent letter to Norwegian tabloid Verdans Gang, writing on the prospect of being sent to a psychiatric ward he stated: "I must admit this is the worst thing that could have happened to me as it is the ultimate humiliation. To send a political activist to a mental hospital is more sadistic and evil than to kill him! It is a fate worse than death

Debate+defence

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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #241 - April 17, 2012, 10:13 PM

I still don't understand why the trial is proceeding if he was deemed not to be clincally responsible or able to stand trial because of his disorder. Its very strange.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #242 - April 17, 2012, 10:16 PM

I think it's because of the controversy and disagreement, and because of his defence team, I'm not quite sure how insanity usually works, but I think the psychiatric assessment concluded that he was criminally insane, not that he was unfit to stand trial. I think you can be fit to stand trial and then later found to be criminally insane. The odd thing is usually the defence team spend a lot of time trying to prove insanity to get a lighter punishment. Breivik wants the opposite, he wants to be found sane so that his ideas are not considered the ramblings of a mad man. I genuinely think he is criminally insane from what I've read, but even if I didn't, I would still hope he would get sent to a mental hospital so that no one would ever take him seriously again.

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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #243 - April 17, 2012, 10:23 PM

Quote from: billy on April 17, 2012, 10:13 PM
I still don't understand why the trial is proceeding if he was deemed not to be clincally responsible or able to stand trial because of his disorder. Its very strange.

He was reassessed by a new team of psychiatrist who found him to be not insane.

While the trial goes on, 4 forensic psychiatrist will be present in the courtroom and may intervene if he starts showing signs of insanity

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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #244 - April 17, 2012, 10:27 PM

They should have proceeded with the trial only when there was a consensus on his mental state. Are they really going to halt it if he shows signs of insanity during the trial? And the initial judgment is really serious, paranoid schizo, how can one set of clinicians diagnose that and then have it repudiated? It very strange.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #245 - April 17, 2012, 10:56 PM

Quote from: Sprout on April 17, 2012, 09:43 PM
Billy, sociopathy is caused naturally by faulty wiring, this is enough to classify someone as insane-just because he's not a schizophrenic doesn't mean he can't be classified insane.

Oh, and sociopaths are adept at manipulation in many cases.

Sociopathy is not a mental illness defense in the US or UK, I'm doubting it is in Norway. The sociopath is in full capacity of his faculties, therefore mens rea (intent to commit the crime) can be formed, even if there exists an irresistible impulse to commit the crime caused by personality disorder. In general only mental disorders (psychosis, schizophrenia, etc) are enough to provide a defense whereas personality disorders (psychopathy, ASPD, etc) aren't.

Didn't you once say you were diagnosed with ODD? Just askin, if you want me to take it to PM that's fine, but you been pretty open here, generally-speaking.

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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #246 - April 17, 2012, 11:19 PM

From Jyllandsposten`s report of Breivik´s speech :

Quote
Had been given 30 minutes

The judges had accepted that he was granted 30 minutes to read a 13 page document, which he has prepared before the testimony began.

According to Breivik, it was a condensed version of his manifesto, "2083 - A European Declaration of Independence."

He began by saying that the rhetoric of the following was downplayed out of consideration for the victims and their relatives.

A historical review

But it did seem like that, and the judge had to intervene and ask him to moderate his rhetoric.

In a calm voice, and without lifting his eyes from his papers Breivik then began to give his analysis of how Western Europe has evolved since the interwar period. In his view, Hitler was the latest example of true democracy in Europe.

He particularly stressed how his deeds should be viewed in the light of the mass immigration that Western European countries have been subjected to for decades.

"I did it out of goodness'

"I sit here today as a representative of the anti-communist resistance movement and represent a great many people in Norway and Scandinavia. Those who try to bring my personality into disrepute have misunderstood my intentions," he said.

"What I have done was done out of kindness toward my culture, and not evil."

He then proceeded to criticize such journalists who, in his opinion systematically censor all who speak critically about multiculturalism and let Muslims liberals and Marxists post messages in their newspapers.

Not innocent

But the biggest criticism he directed at the Norwegian Labor Party, which he believes is responsible for the spreading of multiculturalism in Norway, and he took the opportunity to explain his actions on 22nd July.

"This was not innocent, civilian youth, but political activists who worked for multiculturalism," said Breivik.

"I would do it again," he continued, calling his attack "the most spectacular operation, carried out by a militant nationalist in this century."

Studied closely by experts

"I would do it again because the crimes against people and my culture is 1,000 times as barbaric. The carrying out of a small barbaric act is better than a great barbaric act," he said, according to VG.

He was alluding thereby to the violence that he claims that Muslims perpetrate against Norwegians.

While Breivik went through his initial presentation, he was studied closely by both the chief judge and the four forensic psychiatrist who will decide whether Anders Behring Breivik shows signs of insanity.

Many rhetorical questions
,
Without taking into account the time Breivik several times took the time to pour a glass of water, and he continued his criticism of what he called a confrontation against Western European democracy.

He asked rhetorical question several times.

"An important question to ask yourself is whether you think it is reasonable that Norway has been transformed into a multi-cultural society without being asked. My answer is no," he said.

Lost faith in democracy

"It's no secret that the opponents have not been allowed to express themselves since the Second World War. It is these injustices that created me, The Laser Man in Sweden and NSU in Germany," said Breivik.

"I have lost faith in democracy and therefore chosen to be a militant nationalist."

The chief judge had, on several occasions, to remind Anders Breivik to moderate his rhetoric and remember that he had only been awarded a half-hour talk time, but he stressed repeatedly the need that he be allowed to finish.

Not malicious, but brutal

He pointed out that it is a mistake to call him evil. For, as Breivik pointed out, it is equivalent to calling it evil that the U.S. caused 300,000 innocent deaths in order to save one million others.

"This was goodness and not evil, even if the methods were brutal," he said, according to NRK.

Roughly sketched it was also alleged, that the danger of a Muslim takeover of Norway and Europe is imminent, and that it will end up in a bloody civil war, unless someone prevents "the colonization". And according to Breivik it is a resistance fight comparable to the one fought in Tibet.

I acted out of NECESSITY

Breiviks terrorist attacks should be perceived as "preventive attacks in defense of ethnic Norwegians."

"I acted out of NECESSITY on behalf of my people, my culture and my country," he said according to NRK, and he therefore demanded to be released.

After nearly a one and a half hour Breivik finished his opening speech. And although he asked for time to go through some documents, his request was turned down by the judge.

http://jp.dk/udland/europa/article2752040.ece

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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #247 - April 17, 2012, 11:36 PM

Quote from: Ishina on July 27, 2011, 02:20 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVbUzbLC5GE

Wow, what a lying sack of shit that guy is. He's opposed to all violence? Bullshit. When it's a government he supports he's all fuckin for it. Ask him about Israel, he's okay with them using violence. He's a typical right-wing hypocrite. Fuck him.

Quote from: Paloma on April 17, 2012, 11:19 PM
From Jyllandsposten`s report of Breivik´s speech :

http://jp.dk/udland/europa/article2752040.ece

Sorry about ur loverboy.

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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #248 - April 18, 2012, 12:44 AM

Quote from: Sprout on April 17, 2012, 10:16 PM
I would still hope he would get sent to a mental hospital so that no one would ever take him seriously again.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it works like that. If someone is convinced by what he says, he will tell you “Look, they send people in mental hospital for resisting in the USSR” or something like that. They would just see that as an evil way of attacking him from the government they hate.
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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #249 - April 18, 2012, 01:10 AM

^^^Correct. Anyone inclined to agree with him would not be swayed by that, I don't think.

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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #250 - April 18, 2012, 06:12 AM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on April 17, 2012, 10:56 PM
Sociopathy is not a mental illness defense in the US or UK, I'm doubting it is in Norway. The sociopath is in full capacity of his faculties, therefore mens rea (intent to commit the crime) can be formed, even if there exists an irresistible impulse to commit the crime caused by personality disorder. In general only mental disorders (psychosis, schizophrenia, etc) are enough to provide a defense whereas personality disorders (psychopathy, ASPD, etc) aren't.

Didn't you once say you were diagnosed with ODD? Just askin, if you want me to take it to PM that's fine, but you been pretty open here, generally-speaking.

I don't know, I know that sociopathy isn't valid here or in the US, but generally the Norwegians have a more progressive justice system, I would hope that they recognise the limited use of prisons, their sentences certainly seem to be much shorter.

Anyway, did I mention ODD? I said a lot of things which aren't true in the distant past (which is why I'm 'open'-as you put it-now). I don't remember mentioning ODD but it seems very much like me, I'll ask my GP tomorrow. Oh, I did recently mention ADD in the chat-which is probably the case as my dad had it and I've shown symptoms of it all my life, is that what you mean?

Oh, and Yi, I'm not thinking of those loonies who think like him anyway, I'm talking the more mainstream idiots who (especially in the future) will be tempted to look back on this and 'ask questions' like 'was breivik right?' (you see this sort of fetishism amongst many youth in regards to Hitler f.ex), anyway, I may be concerned about the wrong thing here.

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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #251 - April 18, 2012, 12:25 PM

There are really people that stupid ? Hard to believe.
Not that I don't trust you, but more like… WTF ?!
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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #252 - April 18, 2012, 12:56 PM

From the main stream media sources I've been reading, I keep getting the impression that the journalists do not understand or want to understand him and want to discredit by any means necessary - not only on the basis of whether a particular point he makes is correct or not.

For example, one piece was saying his position was "contradictory" because he hated Muslims, but admired the effectiveness of Al Qaeda and Bin Laden. Personally, I don't see the contradiction there.

There is also an analysis that rubbished the "facts" he produced in his 30 minutes speech yesterday - one of the "facts" he mentioned that was rubbished was that "Oslo would soon be minority Norwegian" - the article then said "actually there is only 29% non-native or native born of non-native Norwegian".

My view: he is clearly a sociopath and not insane. A sociopath should not be declared not guilty by reason of insanity - because the insanity defence in law should cover only those who do not understand what they are doing is wrong/illegal. A sociopath does understand what they are doing is illegal - even if they personally have no right/wrong dimension. I think he has been quite effective in using the leniency of the Norwegian criminal system. He does not want to die a martyr. I think he wants to survive prison, write some books, develop his organisation and come out of it when his organisation becomes a stronger political force - which he forsees happening by 2030 [i.e. the time he expects to get out of prison].
Sociopaths are able to think quite clearly and logically - and their lack of attachment makes them better investors in markets for example [they have no emotional attachments to mistakes they've made, unlike ordinary people, and so will dump badly performing stocks where ordinary people don't]. What I mean by this is that underestimating him is a bad idea.
Understanding his position is the best way to thwart his goals.
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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #253 - April 19, 2012, 06:36 AM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on April 17, 2012, 11:36 PM
Sorry about ur loverboy.

This has been making me chuckle all day, Daffi Duck. Deeply unfair and funny as fuck.

But when you lob as many hand grenades as you do, the odd one is bound to land in the ammunition store.
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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #254 - April 19, 2012, 06:39 AM

*Bows*

fuck you
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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #255 - April 19, 2012, 03:36 PM

The Guardian

Breivik's ideology is all too familiar: that's our big problem

It's comforting to view the killer's horror of multiculturalism as deranged – but it is just an extreme example of what many feel

by Suzanne Moore

I know well the line on Anders Breivik and his incoherent ramblings: a mass murderer enjoying the oxygen of publicity for his vile ideas. He should have been shot. He is, in fact, mad. His trial should not be reported. Liberals have said all these things and more. The quiet, almost sterile way in which the Norwegians are listening to him personifies the "muscular liberalism" that David Cameron once spoke of.

Breivik's ideology may be difficult to listen to, but not because it is incoherent. Precisely the opposite: it is familiar. This is a problem for all of us, right or left. I wish I lived in a world where I didn't have to hear gross generalisations about Islam and creeping sharia or see an increase in antisemitism, hear fantasies about feminism going too far, and where people didn't feel their own culture to be "swamped". I wish the word "war" wasn't thrown around all the time – the war on terror, the war on drugs, the war on red tape. I wish that everything really was run by "cultural Marxists". I wish my neighbour, who has lived here for 50 years and whose grandchildren tell me she prays for me, had learned English and left the house sometimes.

I see what fuelled Breivik's crusader fantasy, his absolute fear of difference. It is not uncommon and it needs to be met head on. Still, any questioning of "multiculturalism" as it functions produces accusations of racism. The left closes in and closes down this debate. The middle class pretend Eid cakes, Diwali lights and a bit of jerk chicken will do. It won't.

Get on a bus and you will hear many a robust exchange about "ethnicity" which polite and political conversation is afraid of. Not everyone who expresses a less than rosy view of how we all rub along is a fascist. That far-right extremists stalk Europe during a recession is not novel; that this tragedy should erupt in the richest country in the world is a shock.

What does Breivik mean by "multiculturalism"? It is clear that there are many definitions in play. It is surely a response to the model of assimilation, though there have always been communities that deliberately refuse to assimilate. Instead, we are encouraged to see various and different cultural communities as having equal rights. A dialogue is presumed to exist between said communities. But it often doesn't. Grudging tolerance does. For some time, though, institutionalised multiculturalism has been experienced by some as special pleading. Certainly, in practice, in education it amounts to a mush where children are told that all religions are benign. I never want to sit through another nativity play with no mention of Jesus. Or a dire Kwanzaa in "African". Historical amnesia does not "empower" any group.

Indeed, as Trevor Phillips pointed out years ago, well-intentioned multicultural dogma has not pushed more ethnic minorities into the upper echelons of politics, media or business. It changes nothing structurally. The desire for a monoculture may well be nostalgic but it can be heard from Folkestone to Bradford. The flight from state schools of many middle-class parents is a flight from "diversity", the fear that dare not speak its name.

At its extreme, it incorporates a desire for a kind of re-masculation via the destruction of women's rights and a simplistic nationalism. The collision of Breivik's thinking with al-Qaida's is a circle of hell. Such thinking is driven by an urge for purity and an absolute certainty. The cultural relativism of liberals crumbles away here. We cannot "respect" those who would gun down our children.

In life, though there may be "passive tolerance", there is often aggressive confrontation between all kinds of people about who has priority. It is rough. And tumble. The excitement of difference. Edgy, if you are young.

And frightening sometimes, too. Breivik's fear of being taken over was out of all proportion, obviously, but how are people to express their fear of change? Is voicing concerns about the modern world not part of multicultural discourse?

For to express such a fear is to be labelled racist, uptight, intolerant. Parts of the left are still arguing for a multiculturalism that superficially placates but never involves deep and actual change. Breivik's "crusade" meant murdering children yet he still sees himself as a victim. He is indeed part of the modern world, after all, where the language of victimhood is paramount.

Surely not everyone who feels unheard or uncomfortable is an EDL headcase or will engage in a Breivik-style jihad. But we do need to listen to our fellow citizens instead of preaching this tired doctrine of cultures all fitting together in a beautiful mosaic. Multiculturalism too often means a kind of sampling, both musically and gastronomically, which is lovely for the bourgeoisie but leaves behind a huge and indeed ethnically diverse underclass who do not yearn for modernity and indeed oppose it. This is why we all keep talking about culture because we will not talk about class in a globalised economy. Modernity means we live without illusions but do not become disillusioned. Let's discuss these illusions instead of wishing them away. This is cultural Marxism for you. This is the very thing Breivik feared.
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Re: Giant blast hits government buildings in Oslo, Norway
Reply #256 - April 26, 2012, 03:51 PM

Thousands defy Norway mass killer Breivik in song
Bombing survivor testifies at Oslo trial
The Associated Press Posted: Apr 26, 2012 7:54 AM ET

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhDDAkV62IM

Facing terror with music, tens of thousands gathered in squares across Norway to sing a children's song that gunman Anders Behring Breivik claimed is being used to brainwash young Norwegians.

The defiant Facebook protest against the right-wing fanatic took place as survivors gave tearful testimony Thursday in his trial for the July 22 bombing-and-shooting rampage that killed 77 people, mostly teenagers.

Some 40,000 people converged at a central square in Oslo in the pouring rain to sing the 1970's song Children of the Rainbow — a Norwegian version of American folk music singer Pete Seeger's Rainbow Race.

Later they were to lay roses on the steps of the courthouse in memory of those killed in the massacre.

In testimony last week, Breivik mentioned the song as an example of how he believes "cultural Marxists" have infiltrated Norwegian schools, triggering a Facebook intiative for Thursday's protests.

Shocked by Breivik's lack of remorse for his massacre, Norwegians by and large have decided the best way to confront him is by demonstrating their commitment to everything he loathes.

Survivors testify
In court Thursday, people who survived Breivik's car bomb in Olso's government district gave emotional testimony as he listened expressionless.

Anne Helene Lund, 24, was just 7 metres from the explosion. She was in a coma for a month, and when she woke up she had lost her memory, unable to even remember the names of parents.

Her father, Jan Henrik Lund, also took the stand. Fighting tears, he described his mixed emotions at seeing his daughter with severe life-threatening brain injuries in the hospital.

"It was like experiencing the worst and the best in the same moment," he said. "It was fantastic that she was alive, horrible that she was as injured as she was."

Breivik says he was targeting the governing Labor Party, which he claims has betrayed the country by opening its borders to Muslim immigrants. He has shown no remorse for the attacks, which he coldly described last week in gruesome detail.

Since he has admitted to the attacks, Breivik's mental state is the key issue for the trial to resolve.

If found guilty and sane, Breivik would face 21 years in prison, though he can be held longer if deemed a danger to society. If declared insane, he would be committed to compulsory psychiatric care.

Breivik said Wednesday that being declared insane would be the worst thing that could happen to him because it would "delegitimize" his views.

Source

Pete Seeger- "Rainbow Race" 1971

One blue sky above us
One ocean lapping all our shore
One earth so green and round
Who could ask for more
And because I love you
I'll give it one more try
To show my rainbow race
It's too soon to die.

Some folks want to be like an ostrich,
Bury their heads in the sand.
Some hope that plastic dreams
Can unclench all those greedy hands.
Some hope to take the easy way:
Poisons, bombs. They think we need 'em.
Don't you know you can't kill all the unbelievers?
There's no shortcut to freedom.

Go tell, go tell all the little children.
Tell all the mothers and fathers too.
Now's our last chance to learn to share
What's been given to me and you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxXzD0eQQBg

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