Back to being a Muslim

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- cosmicdancer
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Re: Back to being a Muslim
Reply #210 - July 18, 2011, 05:14 PM

Quote from: toor on July 18, 2011, 04:51 PM
Stray question: should we be held accountable for the things we believe in?

For the purposes of this life - we must have order in societies so we can all function within it - and so in general we must be held accountable for what we do and have laws, rules and codes by which we run society and deal with those who break those rules.

In a cosmic, grand or after-life sense - if there is one - holding humans accountable makes no sense imho. Since we are all products of our biology and environment and - imho - 'freewill' is an illusion.
- Homo Sapien
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Re: Back to being a Muslim
Reply #211 - July 18, 2011, 05:40 PM

Hello Hassan- I agree with you that, in a sense, belief is not voluntary. We humans tend to be pack animals & often exhibit herd behaviour. We always attempt to belong to a group or herd of some sort which can be along racial, cultural, national or religious lines. Once we become part of a herd we try to protect & strengthen our pack.
This often gave us an evolutionary advantage when our species was less evolved but we all still have these base insticts & they are powerful. Many of us will believe almost anything if our collective group demands it & this is also where confirmation bias also plays a part in affirming the validity of our pack.
The social psychology concept of 'group polarization' also describes the fact that when people form into a group, they tend to make decisions that are more extreme than its individual members would make alone.
Those of us with a higher intellect & forthrightness can of course break out of this pack/herd mentality that is instictive to us. Of course, this can sometimes lead to a more solitary existence when the herd has rejected us & sees us a threat & that is where strenghth of character is required.

When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
- yeezevee
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Re: Back to being a Muslim
Reply #212 - July 18, 2011, 06:02 PM

Quote from: Hassan on July 18, 2011, 05:14 PM
Since we are all products of our biology and environment and - imho - 'freewill' is an illusion.

I don't know about that., with same biology and with same environment from with in the same family.. one guy turns out to be rational guy and other guy turns in to Allah baboon singing jihad.. jihad songs..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Back to being a Muslim
Reply #213 - July 18, 2011, 06:05 PM

Quote from: Hassan on July 18, 2011, 05:14 PM
For the purposes of this life - we must have order in societies so we can all function within it - and so in general we must be held accountable for what we do and have laws, rules and codes by which we run society and deal with those who break those rules.

I'm parsing this as 'societies hold us responsible for breaking rules, including those on acceptable belief'. Is that fair?

I find the statement a little confusing, though; in our context - one in which open debate between believers and non-believers is easy to find - there are surely fewer taboos on what disbelief is 'acceptable'. We call upon others to explain their beliefs all the time, in the hope that they can make them understandable. What can one do when someone apprehends some truth, but can only emote by way of an explanation, as if emoting does away with the requirement to justify a belief?

Anybody can invent a poor axiom; it's when an axiom is dressed as an observation - one that magically turns back into an axiom the moment it is scrutinized - that I find dishonest, and to which my response tends to be 'prove it', bringing us all back to square one...

Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
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Re: Back to being a Muslim
Reply #214 - July 18, 2011, 06:15 PM

Quote from: Homo Sapien on July 18, 2011, 05:40 PM
Hello Hassan- I agree with you that, in a sense, belief is not voluntary. We humans tend to be pack animals & often exhibit herd behaviour. We always attempt to belong to a group or herd of some sort which can be along racial, cultural, national or religious lines. Once we become part of a herd we try to protect & strengthen our pack.
This often gave us an evolutionary advantage when our species was less evolved but we all still have these base insticts & they are powerful. Many of us will believe almost anything if our collective group demands it & this is also where confirmation bias also plays a part in affirming the validity of our pack.
The social psychology concept of 'group polarization' also describes the fact that when people form into a group, they tend to make decisions that are more extreme than its individual members would make alone.
Those of us with a higher intellect & forthrightness can of course break out of this pack/herd mentality that is instictive to us. Of course, this can sometimes lead to a more solitary existence when the herd has rejected us & sees us a threat & that is where strenghth of character is required.

I agree entirely with what you said above, though it should be pointed out that this herd, tribal mentality that causes us to believe almost anything our collective group demands or deems true is again yet another example of how we do not simply choose what to believe. What we believe or disbelieve is based on a host of factors - including cultural, social emotional etc...
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Re: Back to being a Muslim
Reply #215 - July 18, 2011, 06:22 PM

Quote from: toor on July 18, 2011, 06:05 PM
I'm parsing this as 'societies hold us responsible for breaking rules, including those on acceptable belief'. Is that fair?

I find the statement a little confusing, though; in our context - one in which open debate between believers and non-believers is easy to find - there are surely fewer taboos on what disbelief is 'acceptable'. We call upon others to explain their beliefs all the time, in the hope that they can make them understandable. What can one do when someone apprehends some truth, but can only emote by way of an explanation, as if emoting does away with the requirement to justify a belief?

Anybody can invent a poor axiom; it's when an axiom is dressed as an observation - one that magically turns back into an axiom the moment it is scrutinized - that I find dishonest, and to which my response tends to be 'prove it', bringing us all back to square one...

I think I misunderstood your original question - my fault.

I don't believe that any society has the right to punish people for their beliefs - whether they hold them responsible for them or not.

I do not think we are fully in control of what we believe - as I have said - which makes holding people accountable for them even worse.
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Re: Back to being a Muslim
Reply #216 - July 18, 2011, 06:27 PM

Quote from: Hallakuf on July 18, 2011, 03:28 PM
I don't, but I might choose to do so.

Please demonstrate.
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Re: Back to being a Muslim
Reply #217 - July 18, 2011, 06:59 PM

Quote from: Hassan on July 18, 2011, 06:15 PM
What we believe or disbelieve is based on a host of factors - including cultural, social emotional etc...

I agree with this, to a degree. Put simply input=output. Who we become is dependent on the totality of environmental input we have received throughout our lives & the influence it has in shaping us. However, this can change throughout our lives & is never static. We are prime examples of this in that we did not always hold the same position on religion as we do now & this is partially because we have received new input which questioned the validity of what we once believed to be unquestionable.
This is why I believe this site & the work & knowledge of ex muslims is important in providing additional input to many others, which may eventually shape who & what they become, whether that be for better of for worse.

When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
- cosmicdancer
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Re: Back to being a Muslim
Reply #218 - July 18, 2011, 07:08 PM

Quote from: Homo Sapien on July 18, 2011, 06:59 PM
However, this can change throughout our lives & is never static. We are prime examples of this in that we did not always hold the same position on religion as we do now & this is partially because we have received new input which questioned the validity of what we once believed to be unquestionable.

Oh, yes, absolutely! I hope I didn't give the impression that I think we can't break out of the influences that shape our beliefs.

But again that is not simply by "choosing" not to believe - but as a result of - as you say - learning new knowledge, or having the strength and courage to analyse our beliefs rationally etc... In other words our beliefs change because of new information, new perspectives, changes to our environment that make this possible and so on.

Not simply "choosing to believe something else".

My point is that one can't simply choose what to believe.

Belief comes about through many factors - yes, because of thought, rational analysis but also cultural, environmental and so on.

To say we can't simply "choose" what to believe - doesn't mean we can't choose to learn, study and take in new information - and as a consequence our beliefs may or may not change.

If a Muslim or Christian or Atheist says to someone "Believe this" - they can't simply say "Yes OK!"

If they give them information that convinces them - that's a different story. That is not simply "choosing" to believe - that is being convinced by new information. Very different.
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