Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →
↑ ↓
CEMB → Forum → News and Events → UK news and issues → Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts

Do humans have needed kno...
Today at 07:25 AM
New Britain
Today at 12:05 AM
Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 09:56 PM
عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 04:01 PM
Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:06 PM
What's happened to the fo...
April 11, 2024, 01:00 AM
Lights on the way
by akay
February 01, 2024, 12:10 PM
Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 10:44 AM
Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 01:53 PM
Pakistan: The Nation.....
January 28, 2024, 02:12 PM
Gaza assault
January 27, 2024, 01:08 PM
Nawal El Saadawi: Egypt's...
January 27, 2024, 12:24 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed

 (Read 25331 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #60 - July 23, 2011, 10:13 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 11:59 AM
    I have nothing against Tareq Ramadan. I mean he is just a regular Muslim doing his best to make Islam as digestible as he can. (to himself as well as others)

    I really hate all this right-wing neocon/Christian fundie bullshit of: "Oh he's just Taqiyya Tacticians who says nice things to your face but is actually working with the extremists to create a Taliban/Al-Qaeda type state blah blah blah..."

    Like all modern Muslim personalities, Tareq, Ramadan, Hamza Yusuf, and the rest do genuinely believe what they say and they are not in league with extremists - they are just Muslims - and they believe in Islam.

    Now unless one considers that ALL Muslims are secretly in league with the terrorists, then I honestly don't know why anyone would be surprised that a Muslim who believes in Islam tries to defend, justify and offer apologetics.

    I mean that's what believers of all faiths do!  Doesn't mean they are sneaky lying, slippery, Taqiyya Tactician FFS


    I agree with you about the rhetoric of pointing the finger and yelling 'taqiyya'

    In fact the truth is that without engaging with the nittty-gritty of what people like Tariq Ramadan says, they get let off the hook. Because it just becomes a kind of slander, similar to how some simply yell 'Islamophobia' whenever a reasoned critique of Islam or Islamism is made.

    My sense is that Ramadan's beliefs are rooted in very classical understanding of Islam as being the whole 'destiny of mankind' thing, and that he is concerned with leveraging prevailing academic and cultural, political and social theories into this. The idea is to assert that 'western', liberal secular democracy are in some ways deficient, and that it has a responsibility to not 'judge' Islam, and that Islam is enagaged on an ideological, conceptual and theological level, in a 'contest of wills', with secularism, liberal democracy - although he does have the chutzpah to utilise secular, liberal democratic ideas of 'pluralism' to make his case alot.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #61 - July 23, 2011, 10:55 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 07:21 PM
    Yes, this is Islam's greatest problem. It is so resistant to change. The modernists have to scrape the bottom of the barrel and bend over backwards and look through their legs to get any sort of evidence to support them - while the traditionalists have all the weapons they need to blow the modernists out of the water with ease.


    Hassan, this is a good post. But it is a disturbing one too, because it has very difficult to face up to implications.

    Because if you accept a causative relationship between religious ideology and social, real world implications (not an exact correlation but a general one), its difficult to see how far there will be a harmonisation between 'Islam' as an abstract ideology and secular, liberal ideals, and by implication, between those literalist Muslims who view secular, liberal, pluralist society as innately different and hostile.

    And that really is one of the most depressing thoughts to have.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #62 - July 23, 2011, 06:36 PM
    You know what really amazes me about Ramadan?

    How the hell is it possible that somebody who is intellectually so barefoot and shallow gets so much attention.
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #63 - July 23, 2011, 06:42 PM
    Quote
    You know what really amazes me about Ramadan?

    How the hell is it possible that somebody who is intellectually so barefoot and shallow gets so much attention.


    He fills a certain niche.


    You'll like this review of his latest book, by Frank Furedi. He pretty much nails it.

    Quote


    Tariq Ramadan’s The Quest for Meaning is very much a ‘spirit of the age’ book. One of the most influential intellectual trends today is to seek refuge in nature, to search for meaning not in the human-made world but in the natural or biological world. This can be seen in the current fashion for evolutionary psychology, neuroscience, behavioural economics and environmentalism. Another powerful intellectual trend is what we might call a twenty-first-century version of perspectivism, which one-sidedly emphasises the intuitive and contingent aspects of human experience. And The Quest for Meaning tightly embraces both of these fashionable approaches to the world.
       

    Although Ramadan’s book is presented as a spiritual meditation on the problems of existence, it is actually an eclectic mixture of current intellectual prejudices and old-fashioned appeals to revelation and dogma. What is fascinating about the book is the manner in which it leaps from discussing clusters of neurons to issuing poetic homilies about the nature of meaning. Statements such as ‘We are heading for the realm of consciousness and mind where all wisdoms remind us that it is shores that make the ocean one, and that it is the plurality of human journeys that shapes the common humanity of men’ sound like first drafts of the script for Lost. However, while Ramadan’s musings are elliptical, they nonetheless convey a clear message: that truth is very relative, or, as he puts it, ‘we have to begin humbly, by admitting that we have nothing more than points of view’. The only thing we share, he says, is our difference and diversity.

    What distinguishes Ramadan from the usual posse of post-modernist or post-colonial critics of Enlightenment principles is that he writes both as an outsider and an insider. He is both an external critic of Western rationalism but also an internal advocate of the West’s rejection of its own legacy. His synthesis of Islamic particularism and European multiculturalism actually gives meaning to, and reinforces, Western self-doubt. In effect, Ramadan celebrates Western cultural elites’ own disenchantment with the principles of the Enlightenment, only he gives it an Islamic twist. Although he has gained an international reputation as an outstanding Islamic scholar, his arguments clearly bear the stamp of nineteenth-century European perspectivism and twenty-first-century Western multiculturalism.

    “Ramadan regards toleration as a form of paternalism, describing it as the ‘intellectual charity’ of the powerful”

    Outwardly, Ramadan upholds the ideal of open-mindedness. But it’s an open-mindedness that avoids critical thinking and making judgments. His call for embracing multiplicity and diversity is about avoiding the challenge of intellectual clarification and moral judgment. Yet his celebration of diversity is deceptive, too, because his cheering of difference is actually oriented only towards those whose views echo his own. His acceptance of ‘all outlooks’ certainly does not extend to classical liberal thought; indeed, it’s worth noting that the only strong argument consistently pursued through his book is a critique of the liberal virtue of tolerance.

    These days, multiculturalist thinkers frequently dismiss fundamental liberal moral principles such as freedom and tolerance as illusions, or as not being good enough. The claim that tolerance is ‘not enough’ springs from the idea that it is not a suitable principle for managing conflicts between the diverse lifestyles and groups that inhabit contemporary society. Ramadan is prepared to accept that tolerance had some value in the distant past, but he argues that it no longer possesses any positive virtues. He says tolerance has lost its positive content because it no longer involves the questioning of power. For Ramadan, calls for tolerance are really about acquiescing to prevailing power relations. ‘Calling upon powers to be tolerant once meant asking them to moderate their strength and to limit their ability to do harm’, he writes. ‘This actually implied an acceptance of a power relationship that might exist between the State and individuals, the police and citizens, or between colonisers and the colonised.’ (p47)

    Here, it is important to note that the theorists of tolerance - Locke or Mill - were not motivated by a desire to challenge relations of power but rather by the goal of restraining the state from regulating people’s views and opinions. Their impulse was to uphold the freedoms of belief, conscience and speech, because liberals took the view that it was preferable for people to find their own path to the truth than that truth should be imposed from above. It was how the power of the state was used, rather than power relations in general, which the demand for toleration sought to address. However, Ramadan’s principal motive for questioning the virtue of tolerance is less about questioning prevailing power relations, and more about objecting to making any acts of judgment, evaluation or discrimination – acts which are actually integral to the virtue of tolerance.

    Ramadan regards toleration as a form of paternalism; he castigates tolerance as the ‘intellectual charity’ of the powerful. From this perspective, tolerance constitutes a kind of insult, since ‘when standing on equal footing, one does not expect to be merely tolerated or grudgingly accepted’ (p47). In line with the values transmitted by the therapy culture that is currently widespread in the Western world, Ramadan wants, not toleration, but respect, validation and uncritical acceptance. That is why he, like numerous other multiculturalists, rejects tolerance on the ground that it is patronising or is ‘not enough’.

    Ramadan’s claim that people do not want to be tolerated is another way of saying that they don’t want to be judged – but they do want to be affirmed. In his own way, Ramadan gives voice to the Western therapeutic imagination’s estrangement from making value judgments. Contemporary Western culture’s refusal to judge goes hand-in-hand with its celebration of the therapeutic value of affirmation and boosting self-esteem. This sensibility inexorably leads to the affirmation of individual and group identities, an act which has become something of a sacred duty in recent years. It is this gesture of granting respect-on-demand which constitutes the real insult these days, since it does not actually take people seriously. It is about making people feel good about themselves rather than seriously engaging with them – and that is the real form that patronising ‘intellectual charity’ takes today.

    “The traditional liberal idea of tolerance also upholds the notion of respect – for people’s moral autonomy, that is”

    The obvious contradiction between toleration and affirmation means that contemporary culture and society are increasingly wary of the virtue of tolerance. Within multiculturalist doctrine, the principal strategy for overcoming this contradiction is to expand the meaning of tolerance so that it ends up encompassing the idea of acceptance and respect. And this semantic extension of tolerance, so that it takes on board the idea of uncritical recognition, transforms its very meaning; it turns a key Enlightenment virtue into an act of unconditional acceptance.

    Ramadan is at least consistent. In his desire to uphold the values of recognition and respect, he rejects the virtue of tolerance altogether rather than seeking to give it a new meaning. He consigns it to the dustbin of ‘cultural domination’, insisting that ‘when it comes to relations between free and equal human beings, autonomous and independent nations, or civilisations, religions and cultures, appeals for the tolerance of others are no longer relevant’. Why? Because ‘when we are on equal terms, it is no longer a matter of conceding tolerance, but of rising above that and educating ourselves to respect others’ (p48). It is worth noting that the traditional liberal idea of tolerance also upholds the notion of respect – not, however, the idea of unconditional affirmation, as respect is understood today, but the liberal notion of respecting people’s potential for exercising moral autonomy.

    It is precisely because Ramadan is unsympathetic to the idea of individual autonomy and moral independence that he can casually dismiss tolerance as the intellectual charity of the powerful. Tolerance is anything but charity. It refuses to suppress beliefs and views that are judged to be erroneous because it recognises that it is through the exercise of individual autonomy that greater clarity about the truth can be gained. In the end, everyone gains from toleration, since it is through exposure to conflicting views that society acquires certain insights and experiences an intellectual and moral flourishing.

    Ramadan’s rejection of tolerance is driven by hostility towards the idea of critical judgment. But how can a ‘Quest for Meaning’ proceed without a capacity to judge? It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that Ramadan’s exhortation to ‘Judge Not’ is about evading making serious choices between different ways of life. ‘Avoiding Meaning’ would perhaps have been a better title for this book.


    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/reviewofbooks_article/10034

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #64 - July 23, 2011, 06:55 PM
    Thanks! Check out Kenan Malik's review of the same book:

    http://www.kenanmalik.com/reviews/ramadan_quest.html

    Why will Ramadan not simply say that stoning is a barbaric punishment and should be banned? Because, as he explained when I interviewed him for a Radio 4 documentary, the Qur’anic text that demands stoning ‘comes from God’. But isn't that the problem, I asked him. Ramadan knows rationally that certain actions are morally wrong but is not willing to say so because of his attachment to the Revealed word of God. Simply to believe in rationality, he responded, is to accept the ‘dictatorship of intelligence’. And that is ‘a dominant, arrogant posture. It's dangerous.’

    Right. Says somebody who believes in and supports something far, far more dangerous - a dictatorship of a brutal, psychopathic nutcase.


    There is not a mention of contemporary disputes over abortion, divorce, adultery, the veil, or female genital mutilation, that often pit religious norms against secular ones, and are central to current debates about pluralism, nor of his own deeply conservative views on these issues. It is an extraordinary silence, but typical of Ramadan’s refusal to tackle the difficult questions.

    The Quest for Meaning reveals Ramadan as neither a bridge-builder nor a dangerous bigot, but as a shallow thinker taken far too seriously by both supporters and critics. His real strength is his ability to trade in that mixture of pseudo-intellectualism and faux-mysticism that has today become so fashionable.

    At the end of the book, Ramadan informs us that the ‘architecture of the text’ reflects his spiritual journey. There are fourteen chapters which ‘represent two cycles of seven’, seven being a ‘universal symbol’ in all faiths. ‘Twice seven’, Ramadan tells us, ‘to reflect linearity, evolution and the cyclical return of the same and the different though the universality of the symbol.’ At least The Da Vinci Code did not claim to solve the problems of pluralism.

     Cheesy
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #65 - July 23, 2011, 09:00 PM

    Yeah I'd read that review by Malik.

    This line from Furedi's review is pertinent:

    Quote
    Ramadan’s rejection of tolerance is driven by hostility towards the idea of critical judgment.


    Here's the thing - critical judgment, in Ramadan's pose, is only a 'tyranny', when it is exercised in criticising and passing judgment on Islam. Hence, his whole 'philosophy' just becomes a re-hash of taboos against questioning Islam and projecting that taboo and 'blasphemy' onto others.

    Plus Ramadan is against 'critical judgment' when it questions Islam......whilst Islam maintains its own 'critical judgment' of, well, any belief system that doesn't accord with it.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #66 - July 23, 2011, 09:59 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 05:30 PM
    @Wahabist

    Modern - and educated Muslims, especially those in the West - are shifting towards a more metaphysical understanding of Islam as it is very difficult for an intelligent person to maintain a literal view of many aspects of Islam.

    And oddly enough, Muslims in Islamic countries seem to be following the lead of intellectual or prominent Muslims in the West in this respect.

    Though the traditional views still hold sway in the major traditional centres of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere.


    i thought Aisha accounted that he had been by her side all night long?


    Also, the world of the 7th century was no stranger to the healing powers
    and "blessings" of honey.  Matter of fact, honey has been used as medicine
    for many thousands of years, as well as made into beer and wine, used for
    embalming, etc etc etc. 

    also, bees do NOT eat fruit. 
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #67 - July 25, 2011, 09:19 PM
    Last episode just finished. The programme explained how Muhammed had achieved so much mostly though peaceful negotiation and humble action. Sounds like we wasn't the ogre he's often made out to be. I'm going to try to take a new unbiased look at his life and teachings at some point, when time is available!
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #68 - July 25, 2011, 09:51 PM
    Just caught the last part of this and I have to say I was moved to tears at the heartwarming, and touching portrayal of the great Prophet's life and achievements. The program served as a useful reminder to me that the Prophet was indeed a man of peace, and that he was a force for good, specifically chosen by Allah swt, for being such an unusually virtuous and honourable man, who was eons ahead of his time. In fact, he was the best of men; a man who single-handedly lifted a barbaric and intolerant 7th century pagan society into a brave new age. This new age would be one where forgiveness, equality, tolerance and progress would be the order of the day. Slaves, women and orphans alike, would be afforded a lofty status in this new world, for Allah is nothing if he is not merciful and just in equal measure.

    In all his actions, and in all his deeds, the Prophet proved that he was the perfect example of how Allah's laws were to be applied on Earth. When given the opportunities, he would extend the hand of peace and forgiveness to even his most ardent of enemies. He would practice humility, kindness and divine wisdom at every given opportunity, in order to lead by example, and in order to reaffirm God's faith in choosing the Propehet (pbuh) as his one, final, perfect messenger.

    So, a big thank you goes out to the BBC for the balanced and touching portratal of the Prophet that they have just screened. No stone was left unturned in making this portrayal as effective as possible: from the well-judged choice of scholars that helped to extrapolate aspects of the Prophets example, right down to the uplifting musical scores that were used to tug at the heartstrings, during narration of particularly poignant moments during his epic struggle.

    I have had my doubts in the past, but this programme has helped to strengthen my belief in the unlimited goodness of the holy Prophet, and more importantly, in the divine nature of Allah's message. Islam is indeed the one true religion of peace and equality and progress, and of all that can ever be good in humanity. And I, for one, will be forever grateful to the BBC for reminding me of that.
    Hi
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #69 - July 25, 2011, 09:58 PM
    Quote from: musivore on July 25, 2011, 09:51 PM
    Just caught the last part of this and I have to say I was moved to tears at the heartwarming, and touching portrayal of the great Prophet's life and achievements. The program served as a useful reminder to me that the Prophet was indeed a man of peace, and that he was a force for good, specifically chosen by Allah swt, for being such an unusually virtuous and honourable man, who was eons ahead of his time. In fact, he was the best of men; a man who single-handedly lifted a barbaric and intolerant 7th century pagan society into a brave new age. This new age would be one where forgiveness, equality, tolerance and progress would be the order of the day. Slaves, women and orphans alike, would be afforded a lofty status in this new world, for Allah is nothing if he is not merciful and just in equal measure.

    In all his actions, and in all his deeds, the Prophet proved that he was the perfect example of how Allah's laws were to be applied on Earth. When given the opportunities, he would extend the hand of peace and forgiveness to even his most ardent of enemies. He would practice humility, kindness and divine wisdom at every given opportunity, in order to lead by example, and in order to reaffirm God's faith in choosing the Propehet (pbuh) as his one, final, perfect messenger.

    So, a big thank you goes out to the BBC for the balanced and touching portratal of the Prophet that they have just screened. No stone was left unturned in making this portrayal as effective as possible: from the well-judged choice of scholars that helped to extrapolate aspects of the Prophets example, right down to the uplifting musical scores that were used to tug at the heartstrings, during narration of particularly poignant moments during his epic struggle.

    I have had my doubts in the past, but this programme has helped to strengthen my belief in the unlimited goodness of the holy Prophet, and more importantly, in the divine nature of Allah's message. Islam is indeed the one true religion of peace and equality and progress, and of all that can ever be good in humanity. And I, for one, will be forever grateful to the BBC for reminding me of that.


    Shocked Shocked Shocked

    Urrrm wtf?!
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #70 - July 25, 2011, 10:08 PM
    I think that is called ‘taking the piss’, British–style! dance
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #71 - July 25, 2011, 10:09 PM
     Grin
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #72 - July 25, 2011, 10:09 PM
    I was trying to write down how a muslim would feel after watching that...it's a roundabout way to whinge at the BBC.

    I can't believe I have to explain that to you Zaibs. You know me well enough to understand I'm stuck with you guys?
    Hi
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #73 - July 25, 2011, 10:10 PM
    @musi

    Beautifully written! You should become a politkomissar/propagandist.
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #74 - July 25, 2011, 10:16 PM
    Quote from: Zaiba on July 25, 2011, 09:58 PM
    Shocked Shocked Shocked

    Urrrm wtf?!


    +1 lol
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #75 - July 25, 2011, 10:17 PM
    Thanks kenan mate.

    Btw, you should work as a twister of heterosexual minds.
    Hi
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #76 - July 25, 2011, 10:20 PM
    Quote from: Jinn and Tonic on July 25, 2011, 10:16 PM
    +1 lol


    You too? Why is it that the people who are closest to me understand me the least?
    Hi
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #77 - July 25, 2011, 10:28 PM
    Quote from: musivore on July 25, 2011, 10:09 PM
    I was trying to write down how a muslim would feel after watching that...it's a roundabout way to whinge at the BBC.

    I can't believe I have to explain that to you Zaibs. You know me well enough to understand I'm stuck with you guys?


     mysmilie_977

    Sorry I don't know what made me think that you had finally turned back. Cry But a part of me thought that your account was hacked or something. I am so embarrassed now.  lipsrsealed
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #78 - July 25, 2011, 10:29 PM
    Quote from: musivore on July 25, 2011, 09:51 PM
    Just caught the last part of this and I have to say I was moved to tears at the heartwarming, and touching portrayal of the great Prophet's life and achievements. The program served as a useful reminder to me that the Prophet was indeed a man of peace, and that he was a force for good, specifically chosen by Allah swt, for being such an unusually virtuous and honourable man, who was eons ahead of his time. In fact, he was the best of men; a man who single-handedly lifted a barbaric and intolerant 7th century pagan society into a brave new age. This new age would be one where forgiveness, equality, tolerance and progress would be the order of the day. Slaves, women and orphans alike, would be afforded a lofty status in this new world, for Allah is nothing if he is not merciful and just in equal measure.

    In all his actions, and in all his deeds, the Prophet proved that he was the perfect example of how Allah's laws were to be applied on Earth. When given the opportunities, he would extend the hand of peace and forgiveness to even his most ardent of enemies. He would practice humility, kindness and divine wisdom at every given opportunity, in order to lead by example, and in order to reaffirm God's faith in choosing the Propehet (pbuh) as his one, final, perfect messenger.

    So, a big thank you goes out to the BBC for the balanced and touching portratal of the Prophet that they have just screened. No stone was left unturned in making this portrayal as effective as possible: from the well-judged choice of scholars that helped to extrapolate aspects of the Prophets example, right down to the uplifting musical scores that were used to tug at the heartstrings, during narration of particularly poignant moments during his epic struggle.

    I have had my doubts in the past, but this programme has helped to strengthen my belief in the unlimited goodness of the holy Prophet, and more importantly, in the divine nature of Allah's message. Islam is indeed the one true religion of peace and equality and progress, and of all that can ever be good in humanity. And I, for one, will be forever grateful to the BBC for reminding me of that.

    So it was as dire as the first episode then?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #79 - July 25, 2011, 10:36 PM
    Worse...the best, most apologetic, and most uplifting moments were left for the last 20 minutes...designed so that that's the bit that Muslims (and anti-Islamists) take away with them.
    Hi
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #80 - July 25, 2011, 10:51 PM
    Musivore, or anyone else for that matter...could you mention which parts of the program you disagreed with, what errors or oversights were made, what was presented unfairly? I get that everyone thinks this is biased, but for me, or anyone else with little knowledge on this, it sounds like you're all crying foul without explaining why or giving any argument to counter the program writers' assertions. The comments above don't sound too dissimilar from those at another forum:

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?298982-BBC-2-The-Life-of-Prophet-Muhammad(pbuh)-Holy-Peace-(3RD-AND-FINAL-PART!)
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #81 - July 25, 2011, 10:54 PM
    Quote from: musivore on July 25, 2011, 10:09 PM
    I was trying to write down how a muslim would feel after watching that...it's a roundabout way to whinge at the BBC.

    I can't believe I have to explain that to you Zaibs. You know me well enough to understand I'm stuck with you guys?


    Dude you should have no problem convincing your wife of your deen at all.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #82 - July 25, 2011, 10:56 PM
     Cheesy Cheesy
    Hi
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #83 - July 25, 2011, 10:58 PM

    That was a great false-flag operation by musivore  Afro
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #84 - July 25, 2011, 11:03 PM
    musivore:

    MashaAllah! Splendid!  Cheesy
    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #85 - July 25, 2011, 11:10 PM
    I didn't catch much of it but I got some laughs out of what I did see:

    - The women in that Islamic clothes shop describing wearing the Niqab as being a "spiritual experience"

    - The imam justifying the shariah practice of stoning by saying that the proviso of 4 witnesses is an improvement of the stoning practices in Judaism and Christianity--making Islam more humane and just, all while having a a huge smile on his face.

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #86 - July 25, 2011, 11:15 PM
    Iran attacks BBC for documentary series on life of prophet Muhammad

    Iran's minister of cultural and Islamic guidance has attacked an upcoming BBC2 documentary series on the life of the founder of Islam, the prophet Muhammad, saying the "enemy" was attempting to "ruin Muslims' sanctity".

    The three-part series, The Life of Muhammad, presented by Rageh Omaar, a Somali-born British Middle East correspondent for Al Jazeera English, is scheduled to be broadcast on BBC2 in mid-July and has been drawing increasing criticism from senior figures in Iran.

    The documentary makers say it seeks to "retrace the actual footsteps of the prophet" from his birthplace in the Saudi Arabian city of Mecca, his struggles with his prophetic role and divine revelations, his migration to Medina and establishment of the first Islamic constitution before his final return to Mecca following armed conflicts.

    But the Iranian culture minister, Mohammad Hosseini, who has not seen the programme, said in an interview on Monday that he was worried about the BBC film.

    Speaking to Iran's semi-official Fars news agency, he said: "The BBC's decision to make a documentary on the life of [the] prophet Muhammad seems dubious and if our suspicions are proved to be correct, we will certainly take serious action."

    Hosseini added: "What the enemy is trying to do in ruining the Muslims' sanctity is definitely much more than causing us to react and unfortunately, some Islamic countries are not taking this issue seriously. One way to show objections is to express condemnation of the West over their despicable actions."

    Iran and the West have previously clashed, famously, over publication of Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses in 1988 and more recently in the row over threats to burn the Qur'an by a US pastor.

    It is thought officials in Iran, where the population is predominantly Shia, could be worried that the BBC2 documentary might only be limited to a Sunni interpretation of Muhammad's life. But Aaqil Ahmed, the BBC's commissioning editor for religion and ethics, told the Guardian that they had consulted a Shia scholar for the programme.

    "We had a number of consultants for the series including a Shia academic but what is important is that we wanted to tell a history of Muhammad and more specifically a general history of that period," said Ahmed.

    In reaction to Hosseini's remarks, Ahmed added: "The series has not gone out yet and no one in Iran has actually seen any of it. I expect that it is hard to judge a programme before watching it but I understand, at the same time, that there are always people who will have very strong opinions about a film even before its broadcast."

    The BBC has stressed that its films are "a presenter-led documentary series" which "draw on the expertise and comments from the world's leading academics and commentators on Islam."

    Tariq Ramadan of St Anthony's College, Oxford, Ziauddin Sardar, a London-based scholar, Tom Holland, a historian and Princess Badiya El Hassan of the Jordanian royal family are among those who appear in the documentary, which was filmed in various locations including Saudi Arabia, Jerusalem, Syria and Jordan.

    The BBC has also made clear that its series is "in line with Islamic tradition" and "it does not depict any images of the face of Muhammad, or feature dramatic reconstructions of Muhammad's life".

    Hosseini's remarks come only a month after Iranian authorities gave permission for the production of a home-made drama based on the life of the prophet, which is going to be directed by film-maker Majid Majidi.

    A Crescent Films production for BBC2, The Life of Muhammad is directed by the British-Pakistani film-maker Faris Kermani who has previously made a number of Islam-related films, such as Channel 4's Seven Wonders Of The Muslim World.

    Rageh Omaar has previously worked on at least two Iranian projects, a TV documentary for Al Jazeera, Iran Season, and Rageh Inside Iran which was broadcast by BBC4.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jun/28/iran-bbc-documentary-prophet-muhammad

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------


    Let us hope they do not do anything stupid as usual.
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #87 - July 25, 2011, 11:20 PM
    Whabbist   in other words, a world spectacular dawa fest? lol

    musi... sorry luv!  But I agree with billy, i think it was, that
    you should have no problem convincing your wife of your
    deen and iman LMAOOOOO
    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #88 - July 25, 2011, 11:24 PM
    Quote from: chris on July 25, 2011, 10:51 PM
    Musivore, or anyone else for that matter...could you mention which parts of the program you disagreed with, what errors or oversights were made, what was presented unfairly? I get that everyone thinks this is biased, but for me, or anyone else with little knowledge on this, it sounds like you're all crying foul without explaining why or giving any argument to counter the program writers' assertions. The comments above don't sound too dissimilar from those at another forum:

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?298982-BBC-2-The-Life-of-Prophet-Muhammad(pbuh)-Holy-Peace-(3RD-AND-FINAL-PART!)


    Too much cherry-picking for a start Chris. For example, a full 5 minutes was spent tonight on highlighting Mo's act of forgiveness to the people of Mecca. But another 10 examples could easily have been dwelled upon, when Mo did in fact behave like a vengeful ogre, when people either stood in the way of his quest, or when they committed the capital offence of insulting his ego.

    Another major problem was that apologetics were used throughout, to stifle harsh aspects of Islam and Mo, that even most Muslim scholars and chroniclers do not dispute. This included Aisha's age at her rape, and the claim in the program that Mo married all his wives before the revelation that there was a restriction of 4 to all Muslims.

    Throughout, good aspects of islam were stressed, such as the equality afforded to all, and the gains made by women and slaves, for example. What was skipped over during these moments were specific verses of the Qu'ran and acts of a Mo that contradicted these precise view completely (for example, the right muslims were given to rape their slaves).

    I'd carry on Chris, but talking of Islam too deeply does bring out feelings in me that are just not cool. And I like to pretend I'm cool, so I'll stop. What I will say though is that I accept that the Beeb had a difficult tightrope to walk (since they did not want to fuel Muslim extremists on the one hand, or right-wing haters on the other). Anything too controversial therefore had to be necessarily cushioned, I suppose.
    Hi
  • Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
     Reply #89 - July 25, 2011, 11:42 PM
    Musivore, thank you for your reply Smiley

    Quote from: musivore on July 25, 2011, 11:24 PM
    Too much cherry-picking for a start Chris. For example, a full 5 minutes was spent tonight on highlighting Mo's act of forgiveness to the people of Mecca. But another 10 examples could easily have been dwelled upon, when Mo did in fact behave like a vengeful ogre, when people either stood in the way of his quest, or when they committed the capital offence of insulting his ego.

    Could anyone give examples of such events, other than the Banu Qurayza, which was covered in episode two.

    Quote
    Another major problem was that apologetics were used throughout, to stifle harsh aspects of Islam and Mo, that even most Muslim scholars and chroniclers do not dispute. This included Aisha's age at her rape, and the claim in the program that Mo married all his wives before the revelation that there was a restriction of 4 to all Muslims.

    Yes, the commentators did all seem rather...enthusiastic in their praise. I did not know that there was contention as to when the revelation about numbers of wives was supposed to have happened. Is there any consensus on this? Tariq Ramadan expressed his view that Aisha was in her late teens at the time of the marriage and consummation; what do you suppose he bases this view on and why do you (presumably) consider that he is wrong?

    Quote
    Throughout, good aspects of islam were stressed, such as the equality afforded to all, and the gains made by women and slaves, for example. What was skipped over during these moments were specific verses of the Qu'ran and acts of a Mo that contradicted these precise view completely (for example, the right muslims were given to rape their slaves).

    I was surprised this wasn't mentioned as I know a few Muslims who find this uncomfortable, so I would have thought it wouldn't have been too controversial (no more so than Aisha's age).

    Quote
    I'd carry on Chris, but talking of Islam too deeply does bring out feelings in me that are just not cool. And I like to pretend I'm cool, so I'll stop. What I will say though is that I accept that the Beeb had a difficult tightrope to walk (since they did not want to fuel Muslim extremists on the one hand, or right-wing haters on the other). Anything too controversial therefore had to be necessarily cushioned, I suppose.

    I appreciate you replying with some particulars. Yes, the BBC did have a sensitive topic to cover here, but a documentary is a documentary, and I don't think it should be heavily biased one way or another for fear of upsetting the sensitivities of an audience group, but then presented as a neutral piece of educational programming. With that said, if anyone did find fault with the program, it would be really helpful for both the ignorant among us and open-minded Muslims if criticisms were stated and not just emotively implied.
  • Previous page 1 2 34 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »