Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed

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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #30 - July 18, 2011, 11:03 PM

Quote from: Fara7 on July 18, 2011, 10:53 PM
I didn't want less, I wanted an equal chance to be given to both Islamic and Jewish experts, during that part I believe most of the talking was done by Jewish experts filmed in from synagogues. Am not defending, but wanted to hear the Muslims explanation, true the presenter stated the Islamic explanation, but it would have been good to hear it from the Muslim historians.

Here's the thing. Mohammad is described as insaan al-kamil. His name cannot be uttered without blessings being said afterwards. Muslims are enjoined to follow his sunnah, non Muslims are 'invited' to submit to it too. He is protected by a taboo against criticism so strong that death threats are normative whenever he is criticised, people are killed for 'blaspheming' against him.

Therefore, it is those who make the extraordinary assertions for Mo and his religion, upon whom the stress must fall in 'explaining' an act of collective punishment, like these killings. Because if that is his sunnah that Muslims must follow.......well, you get the picture now when its said, that Mohammad is Islam's achilles heel.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #31 - July 18, 2011, 11:04 PM

Anyway, I'll catch up with the episode later on in the week. As long as it doesn't do my head in and I switch it off after ten minutes.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #32 - July 19, 2011, 10:29 AM

Quote from: billy on July 18, 2011, 08:12 PM
Thanks pal

Did you see the first episode Hassan? Was pretty much standard narrative stuff on the life of Muhammad, as seen by Muslim narratives.

Yeah saw it and last nights - standard apologetics - found it boring and only watched out of interest as to how they would present it - though I needn't have bothered as it was presented just as I expected it would be.
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #33 - July 19, 2011, 11:24 AM

Quote from: ChinaDoll on July 18, 2011, 09:11 PM
is it me or is Tariq Ramadhan sexy :O

i thought he looked really sinister. like a Bond villain. Maybe that's what floats your boat
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #34 - July 19, 2011, 11:59 AM

I have nothing against Tareq Ramadan. I mean he is just a regular Muslim doing his best to make Islam as digestible as he can. (to himself as well as others)

I really hate all this right-wing neocon/Christian fundie bullshit of: "Oh he's just Taqiyya Tacticians who says nice things to your face but is actually working with the extremists to create a Taliban/Al-Qaeda type state blah blah blah..."

Like all modern Muslim personalities, Tareq, Ramadan, Hamza Yusuf, and the rest do genuinely believe what they say and they are not in league with extremists - they are just Muslims - and they believe in Islam.

Now unless one considers that ALL Muslims are secretly in league with the terrorists, then I honestly don't know why anyone would be surprised that a Muslim who believes in Islam tries to defend, justify and offer apologetics.

I mean that's what believers of all faiths do! Doesn't mean they are sneaky lying, slippery, Taqiyya Tactician FFS
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #35 - July 19, 2011, 12:19 PM

I don't think it's quite that simple Hassan.

Have you seen this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGA94E-FqD4&feature=player_embedded

Tariq Ramadan is hailed as Martin Luther King of Islam, a great reformer (who btw cannot even summon enough moral fibre to condemn stoning and such), a brilliant Islamic intellectual etc.
In this sermon among other things he specifically mentions the conflict in Sudan between the predominantly Arab/Muslim North and the non-Arab/Muslim "African" South and explicitly offers his moral support to genocide that is/was happening in Sudan which is a nice example of tribalistic mentality that personalises the suffering of Palestinians (or Muslims in general) but is on the other hand completely oblivious to the suffering of non-Muslims especially when the perpetrators of a crime are Muslims.

Caroline Fourest who is a left wing French feminist writer (at any rate she is anything but 'right-wing') wrote a book on him in which she analysed Tariq Ramadan's 15 books, 1,500 pages of interviews, and approximately 100 recordings and concluded that "Tariq Ramadan is slippery. He says one thing to his faithful Muslim followers and something else entirely to his Western audience. His choice of words, the formulations he uses – even his tone of voice – vary, chameleon-like, according to his audience."

Personally, I don't think that Tariq Ramadan is a 'Taqiyya Tactician' or anything like that and neither would I suggest that there indeed is such a thing as 'Taqiyya Tactician' at all.
But I do think that Ramadan is a double faced bastard with a tribalistic mentality espousing double standards who gets way too much (undeserved) attention. A typical product of identity politics fiasco.
And I am saying this as somebody who used to see him in a very positive light and even considered him as a true progressive.
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #36 - July 19, 2011, 12:47 PM

I just watched the video Kenan and can only think that this surprises you because you were never a Muslim.

I have sat in literally hundreds of Mosques up and down the UK and heard Du'as like this - rolling off the usual "Oh God help our brothers in Palestine, Chechnya, Kashmir, Kumbi Bolongo etc... and defeat the enemies of Islam etc..."

It's standard Du'a material.

Most Muslims try to defend the indefensible. They have to. Because Islam is full of indefensible beliefs.

But Tariq Ramadan is not a "Taqiyya Tactician" as some neocons/fundies etc.. like to call him - nor do I understand why you say he is a double faced bastard?

He is just a Muslim - defending Islam as best he can - and in many cases he is more honest than some modernists as he tries to make Islam acceptable while trying to stay within mainstream and traditional scholarship.

What's with the hatred towards him?

If you hate him then you have to hate the vast majority of Muslims.

Because most are like him. Believe the same as him. And say the same as him.
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #37 - July 19, 2011, 01:08 PM

I have a read a great deal of hysterical conspiracy theories about Tareq Ramadan and frankly I put it all in the same category that I put the "Obama is a secret Muslim" (and it is usually said by the same sort of paranoid Muslim haters).

It goes without say that we at CEMB campaign against many of the beliefs of Islam and as you obviously know I regularly criticise and dissect Islam and the Qur'an. Do I have to mention that I am a management committee member of CEMB and been on many rallies against Shari'ah Law, stoning etc…?

Of course we oppose these things.

But I don't hate Muslims or call them lying taqiyya tacticians or two faced bastards for believing what they do. On the contrary I empathise with them being born into a faith they did not invent, and their emotional attachment to it and how hard it is for them to question it etc…

People like Tariq Ramadan are just regular Muslims trying to defend the regular Islamic beliefs. I don't hate him for that.

When I was a Muslim I actually found some of his statements very useful when arguing against strict traditionalists when he argued that the Hudood punishments cannot be implemented now and there should be a re-working of Shari'ah Law to take into account the changes in society and the situation of people today. He argued that it was not the punishment themselves that were set in stone but the maqaasid - the intention or aims of what the law was trying achieve.

That may not sound very revolutionary to you - but to traditional Muslims it actually gives them some room to argue against the simple imposition of 7th century laws as more fundamentalist Muslims call for.
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #38 - July 19, 2011, 01:13 PM

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 12:47 PM
I just watched the video Kenan and can only think that this surprises you because you were never a Muslim.

If by "you were never a Muslim" you mean that I never subscribed to all too mainstream, standard, bigoted, supremacist and tribalistic version of Islam then you are quite right. I was never a Muslim, In much the same way that The Tailor likes to say for himself that he isn't a Muslim.

Btw the video doesn't surprise me at all. I am all too aware of the pathology of mainstream Islam.

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 12:47 PM
He is just a Muslim - defending Islam as best he can - and in many cases he is more honest than some modernists as he tries to make Islam acceptable while trying to stay within mainstream and traditional scholarship.

What's with the hatred towards him?

I wouldn't call it hatred. It's more of a total disillusionment with him and uneasiness with the fact that in the past I actually fell for his obvious bullshit.
The thing is if one claims universality or at least gives a perception of it - as Ramadan does - there is simply no place for such blatant particularity in one's discourse.

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 12:47 PM
If you hate him then you have to hate the vast majority of Muslims.

Because most are like him. Believe the same as him. And say the same as him.

'Hate' is a big word. I don't think that there is a single person on this planet that I hate.
But I do dislike the likes of Tariq Ramadan for being dishonest and partial while claiming the exact opposite.
He is after all hailed as 'Martin Luther King of Islam'. If he indeed is the premiere Islamic intellectual then Islam really is in deep, deep trouble.
Btw Hassan the fact that I criticize, strongly disagree and sometimes completely reject inflated claims made by Muslims does not mean that I hate them. Some Muslims are my friends after all, I simply disagree with the narrative of most. Criticizing somebody's viewpoint does not equate to hating that particular individual as a person. Surely that is pretty much a self evident fact.
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #39 - July 19, 2011, 01:17 PM

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 01:08 PM
I have a read a great deal of hysterical conspiracy theories about Tareq Ramadan and frankly I put it all in the same category that I put the "Obama is a secret Muslim" (and it is usually said by the same sort of paranoid Muslim haters).

Caroline Fourest is by no means a hysterical conspiracy theoretician.

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 01:08 PM
When I was a Muslim I actually found some of his statements very useful when arguing against strict traditionalists when he argued that the Hudood punishments cannot be implemented now and there should be a re-working of Shari'ah Law to take into account the changes in society and the situation of people today. He argued that it was not the punishment themselves that were set in stone but the maqaasid - the intention or aims of what the law was trying achieve.

That may not sound very revolutionary to you - but to traditional Muslims it actually gives them some room to argue against the simple imposition of 7th century laws as more fundamentalist Muslims call for.

It doesn't sound very revolutionary to me at all. I used to at least partially subscribe to such narrative.
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #40 - July 19, 2011, 01:23 PM

Quote from: Kenan on July 19, 2011, 01:13 PM
If by "you were never a Muslim" you mean that I never subscribed to all too mainstream, standard, bigoted, supremacist and tribalistic version of Islam then you are quite right.

Sorry, it's been so long since I read your intro - if ever lol - I can't remember if you were a Muslim - I got the impression you were not. But if you were - I stand corrected.

Quote from: Kenan on July 19, 2011, 01:13 PM
But I do dislike the likes of Tariq Ramadan for being dishonest and partial while claiming the exact opposite.

Where has he done this? I don't mean I doubt you - only that I am not aware of him being intentionally dishonest. (Most people who defend their faith - no matter what faith - fall into a certain amount of dishonesty, but that's the sort of shifting the goal posts all believers in a sky-daddy have to do - standard stuff for believers.)
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #41 - July 19, 2011, 01:25 PM

Quote from: Kenan on July 19, 2011, 01:17 PM
Caroline Fourest is by no means a hysterical conspiracy theoretician.

Not heard of her or read what she said about him. Link?

Quote from: Kenan on July 19, 2011, 01:17 PM
It doesn't sound very revolutionary to me at all. I used to at least partially subscribe to such narrative.

So did I.

Does that make you and I two-faced bastards?
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #42 - July 19, 2011, 01:28 PM

Hassan et al;
I wonder if anyone of you noticed in last night's episode that Tariq Ramadan denied [isra wal miraj], the physical night journey of Mo?

When I heard him saying it was a metaphysical journey, my jaws dropped.

In many Muslim circles, he will find, that this is an act of kufr because it is against what the koran tells.

The koran refers to two physical places that Mo visited that night and to say it is metaphorical whilst Abu-Bakr was dubbed al-sideeq because he believed the journey was physical, it goes against the koran and the rest of islamic literature.

You need a proof to make such suggestions which Tariq didn't offer or didn't have. He simply said 'in my opinion' as if the matter were open for debate. In Islam only rullings are open for debates, not news.

Hope I hear something about this interesting bit Tariq said.
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #43 - July 19, 2011, 01:38 PM

Quote from: Kenan on July 19, 2011, 01:13 PM
If by "you were never a Muslim" you mean that I never subscribed to all too mainstream, standard, bigoted, supremacist and tribalistic version of Islam then you are quite right.

And I'm sorry, but I take exception to: "mainstream, standard, bigoted, supremacist and tribalistic version of Islam"

That's not a "version" of Islam - that's Islam. That's Islam. Have you read the Qur'an?

It doesn't mean those who follow it are bigoted, tribalistic or supremacists - and it doesn't mean Islam doesn't contain other elements too.

But if you dislike Tarek Ramadan for holding such views then as I say you must dislike the vast majority of Muslims. Because that's their religion.

Do you think there are Muslims who believe in another Qur'an? Another set of hadeeths?

This is what I don't get.

Tarek Ramadan is saying nothing other than standard stuff.

Argue against him. Criticise the beliefs. Expose the flaws and fallacies.

But why dislike or attack the person for believing what they say they believe? Why accuse him of being a two-faced bastard.

Sorry - but I was a Muslim once - just like him.

And I kinda take that personally.
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #44 - July 19, 2011, 01:48 PM

btw read what they say about Tareq Ramadan on ummah.com - they hate his guts and call him all sorts of names - simply because he has tried to tweak Islam a little for the modern age!
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #45 - July 19, 2011, 01:59 PM

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 01:23 PM
... only that I am not aware of him being intentionally dishonest.

Neither am I.

That's the thing - he is not intentionally dishonest. He is simply unprincipled when it comes to judging Islam by the standards he uses to judge other systems because of his beliefs. Have you ever seen him criticizing Islamic imperialism? Have you ever seen Zia Sardad criticizing it? Me neither.
Such dichotomy is understandable when it comes to your average grandam in Kazakhstan but much less so when prominent intellectual such as Tariq Ramdan are concerned. I simply hold him to a much higher standards then I would an ordinary person.

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 01:38 PM
And I'm sorry, but I take exception to: "mainstream, standard, bigoted, supremacist and tribalistic version of Islam"
That's not a "version" of Islam - that's Islam. That's Islam. Have you read the Qur'an?

It is a 'version' of Islam. A literalist one. My 'Islam' was completely different. And yeah, of course I have read the Quran.

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 01:38 PM
It doesn't mean those who follow it are bigoted, tribalistic or supremacists - and it doesn't mean Islam doesn't contain other elements too.

Precisely!

That's why I wrote that criticizing somebody's viewpoint does not equate to hating that particular individual as a person. Individuals are sometimes compelled into doing stupid things and subscribing to dangerous ideas because of societal in-group pressures regardless of the fact that such ideas do not really reflect who they are.

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 01:38 PM
But if you dislike Tarek Ramadan for holding such views then as I say you must dislike the vast majority of Muslims. Because that's their religion.

Again, I hold him to a much higher standards then I would an ordinary believer. He is an extremely prominent public intellectual.

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 01:38 PM
Do you think there are Muslims who believe in another Qur'an? Another set of hadeeths?

There are those who interpret them in a truly progressive manner, yes. Like The tailor. Or my former me.

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 01:38 PM
But why dislike or attack the person for believing what they say they believe? Why accuse him of being a two-faced bastard.

Okay, he is a snake oil salesman. But like I said the analysis Caroline Fourest did on him shows him in a light that is incompatible with a position of 'Martin Luther King of Islam'.

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 01:25 PM
Not heard of her or read what she said about him. Link?

There is lots of stuff on youtube. Most of it is unfortunately in French.

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 01:25 PM

So did I.

Does that make you and I two-faced bastards?

I strictly separate ordinary individuals who hold personal beliefs from prominent public ideologues and intellectuals who should have know better and apply the same rigorous standard of inquiry to all ideologies.
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #46 - July 19, 2011, 02:03 PM

Quote from: Whabbist on July 19, 2011, 01:28 PM
I wonder if anyone of you noticed in last night's episode that Tariq Ramadan denied [isra wal miraj], the physical night journey of Mo?

When I heard him saying it was a metaphysical journey, my jaws dropped.

This is exactly the position Zia Sardar takes. You will find that a lot of Muslim intellectuals subscribe to such non-literalistic views.
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #47 - July 19, 2011, 02:05 PM

Quote from: Kenan on July 19, 2011, 01:59 PM
That's the thing - he is not intentionally dishonest. He is simply unprincipled when it comes to judging Islam by the standards he uses to judge other systems because of his beliefs. Have you ever seen him criticizing Islamic imperialism? Have you ever seen Zia Sardad criticizing it?

Standard stuff for almost all Muslims - public figures or not - why single out Tarek Ramadan - I have seen a truck load of Muslim speakers who deserve to be attacked much more than him.

As for Muslims like Tailor and yourself in a former life - I love these types but they are like snowflakes on a desert.

Tareq Ramadan is like the vast majority of Muslims - I criticise his beliefs - but have nothing against him personally just as I have nothing against most Muslims.
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #48 - July 19, 2011, 02:18 PM

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 01:48 PM
btw read what they say about Tareq Ramadan on ummah.com - they hate his guts and call him all sorts of names - simply because he has tried to tweak Islam a little for the modern age!

Most religions have already been tweaked for the modern age and have to be. Islam is being dragged into the modern-era kicking and screaming. In fairness it must be scary for conservatives of any religion (Muslims, Jews, Christians etc.) since the whole world is evolving an old ideas are being thrown out.

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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #49 - July 19, 2011, 02:40 PM

Quote from: Kenan on July 19, 2011, 02:03 PM
This is exactly the position Zia Sardar takes. You will find that a lot of Muslim intellectuals subscribe to such non-literalistic views.

On what grounds can a scholar base his or her non-literalistic views?

Surely not when it seems against reason because if this is allowed, anything in Islam can be explained away as non-literal - even though lingusitic rules do not allow it always. This why traditional scholars came up with Usool Al-fiqh with in which matters of jurisprudence are settled.

More importantly, they came up with Usool Al-tafseer to deal with the interpretation of the Koran and I assure you that accoriding to this Islamic science, the journey cannot be explained metaphysically. Those who are generally with non-literalistic views are not thus taken seriously by mainstream well-established scholars of Islam, in the past and our courrent time.

If the journey were non-literal, why distinguish it from the rest of communications between Allah and Mo? Why do Muslims consider the holiness of the thrid mosque, Al-Aqsa, if it were not for the actual physical visitation of Mo and specifically praying two rakat as well as the reward re praying in it?

Do you seriously think that Mo and the rest of prophets prayed two rakat in Al-Aqsa metaphorically?
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #50 - July 19, 2011, 03:23 PM

Islamic emirate Dua..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9YVLx5JZHo
Quote

Oh Allah! You have revealed The Book...You control the clouds and dominate their path
You defeat the armies of Your enemiesOh Allah, All Mighty are You, All Powerful are You,
Oh Allah, defeat your enemies, defeat the Russians!

Oh Allah! Scatter their aim, shake the earth beneath their feet, strike fear into their hearts.
Oh Allah! Cripple their limbs and blind their sight, and send upon them epidemics and calamities.
Oh Allah! Disperse their gatherings and shatter their unity; Make their condition severe amongst themselves,
and make their plots turn against them - show us the glory of your Power
and make their destruction a lesson for those who do not learn lessons.
Oh Allah! Hasten their destruction, and make their wealth a bounty for the Muslims.

Oh Allah! Aid our Mujahideen brothers in Chechnya.
Oh Allah! Unify their ranks, and gather them on the word of truth.
Oh Allah! Make accurate the aim of their weapons; strengthen their determination
and make them steadfast, and bestow upon them tranquillity.
Oh Allah, put their hearts at peace and guide them to that which is all-good.
Oh Allah! Give them authority in Your Glorified Name, and give glory to them with your
infinite armies in the heavens and the earth.

Oh Lord of the Worlds! May the Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon the
Messenger of Allah and upon all his followers and companions.

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #51 - July 19, 2011, 05:22 PM

Quote from: Whabbist on July 19, 2011, 01:28 PM
Hassan et al;
I wonder if anyone of you noticed in last night's episode that Tariq Ramadan denied [isra wal miraj], the physical night journey of Mo?

When I heard him saying it was a metaphysical journey, my jaws dropped.

In many Muslim circles, he will find, that this is an act of kufr because it is against what the koran tells.

The koran refers to two physical places that Mo visited that night and to say it is metaphorical whilst Abu-Bakr was dubbed al-sideeq because he believed the journey was physical, it goes against the koran and the rest of islamic literature.

You need a proof to make such suggestions which Tariq didn't offer or didn't have. He simply said 'in my opinion' as if the matter were open for debate. In Islam only rullings are open for debates, not news.

Hope I hear something about this interesting bit Tariq said.

Actually that didn't surprise me as I and quite a few other Muslims I knew took it as a 'spiritual' journey rather than a physical journey and although you are quite correct that majority view is that it was a physical journey - there are some scholars who argue it was a spiritual journey بالروح ولا بالجسد and even some who say it happened within a dream.

http://dorar.net/enc/aqadia/1949

http://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?idfrom=388&idto=388&bk_no=127&ID=336
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #52 - July 19, 2011, 05:30 PM

@Wahabist

Modern - and educated Muslims, especially those in the West - are shifting towards a more metaphysical understanding of Islam as it is very difficult for an intelligent person to maintain a literal view of many aspects of Islam.

And oddly enough, Muslims in Islamic countries seem to be following the lead of intellectual or prominent Muslims in the West in this respect.

Though the traditional views still hold sway in the major traditional centres of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere.
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #53 - July 19, 2011, 06:08 PM

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 05:30 PM
@Wahabist

Modern - and educated Muslims, especially those in the West - are shifting towards a more metaphysical understanding of Islam as it is very difficult for an intelligent person to maintain a literal view of many aspects of Islam.

And oddly enough, Muslims in Islamic countries seem to be following the lead of intellectual or prominent Muslims in the West in this respect.

Though the traditional views still hold sway in the major traditional centres of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere.

That is very true.

I have been repeatedly taught that any departure from the traditional view in this sort of matters and any attempt to modernising Islam necessarily implies that Islam, in its original unmodernised form, is incomplete as well as being not timelessly true and compatible with humanity.

This implication puts the fear of God into anybody's heart because it is on a collision course with ( الْيَوْمَ أَكْمَلْتُ لَكُمْ دِينَكُمْ وَأَتْمَمْتُ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعْمَتِي وَرَضِيتُ لَكُمُ الإِسْلامَ دِيناً ) ergo plain kufr.

It is the very thing that Muslims hold against Christains; why there have been two seemingly contradicting testimonies? Wasn't the Old Testimony sufficient?

I'm aware of it being mentioned in Zad al-madd, thanks for drawing my atention to it, but it is not accepted/ widely held by the majority of scholars as well as it is not accepted/widely held view that Isra Wal Miraj joureny took place more than once either.

It is only in Islam that the old generations of scholars know more than the new ones because of context and the resistance of Islam to modernity.
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #54 - July 19, 2011, 07:21 PM

Yes, this is Islam's greatest problem. It is so resistant to change. The modernists have to scrape the bottom of the barrel and bend over backwards and look through their legs to get any sort of evidence to support them - while the traditionalists have all the weapons they need to blow the modernists out of the water with ease.
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #55 - July 19, 2011, 07:59 PM

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 07:21 PM
Yes, this is Islam's greatest problem. It is so resistant to change. The modernists have to scrape the bottom of the barrel and bend over backwards and look through their legs to get any sort of evidence to support them - while the traditionalists have all the weapons they need to blow the modernists out of the water with ease.

Thank you for that Hass, I finally have an appropriate siggy. But it's too long. Great.
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #56 - July 19, 2011, 08:05 PM

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 05:30 PM
@Wahabist

Modern - and educated Muslims, especially those in the West

I don't know who is educated and who is NOT ., and what Eastern Muslim think about Jannah heaven and what western Muslim think about Jannah and Islamic Heaven ,,,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8lhuMG1fbQ

yap.. in Allah heaven .. women are so pure so bright skin so wide eyed.. no vaginal bleeding, no disease. unblemished , mensuration free , free feces, urine, shit, Allah cleaned them all.. they are beautiful whit young women, No black, no Asian, No Indian, no Chinese .. Only white women., Yes we need to convert all white women in to Islam..

and you find them in east and west...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLAwG3J423c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU1qtqSD5js

Well when you have 1000s of preachers making noise 7 days week., what can an young guy high hormones can do... LOOK FOR JANNAH.. And that is the reason why Christians beat the hell out of these idiots who shout in mosques..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B4hkNmi4u4

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #57 - July 19, 2011, 08:53 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 19, 2011, 08:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B4hkNmi4u4

That guy is such a joke - I've seen a few of his vids. He begins every video with "Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ to Everyone", then launches into a sneering, vulgar, uncivilised tirade which only makes him appear to be a mean-spirited little man full of resentment and hatred towards Muslims making a joke out his: "Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ to Everyone".

And to make matters worse his knowledge of classical Arabic - and thus the very subject he is criticising - the Qur'an - is appalling. He is clearly an Arabic speaker (probably an Egyptian Copt) - but only knows modern or colloquial well - which I'm afraid is typical of Christian Arabs, who (understandably) generally don't bother to learn classical Arabic deeply.

I came across his videos on the honey bees while making my own - and frankly it's probably the worst debunk ever! He totally misses the real points that undermine the miracle claim - and spends 3 boring vids talking utter nonsense.

Don't believe me?

See for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8wDsZ1Pm08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ly8DMW5fN0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYGCLtpz7Tw
- Wahhabist
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #58 - July 19, 2011, 09:21 PM

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 07:21 PM
Yes, this is Islam's greatest problem. It is so resistant to change. The modernists have to scrape the bottom of the barrel and bend over backwards and look through their legs to get any sort of evidence to support them - while the traditionalists have all the weapons they need to blow the modernists out of the water with ease.

Absolutely so. Pure Islam is the very definition of regression. Mo said ' the best of the centuries is mine and the one after it and then the one after it' and it is mentioned innumerably that the later centuies are the wrost of time -- I think because by then his lies would have been exposed.

The funny thing is Mo said that a time will come where people wonder about saying what is Allah? We do not know what it means but we heard our grandparents saying it so we repeat this word like them. In other words, Islam, the final deen and the one preserved by Allah, will be completely forgotten by people. By this, the exposation of his claim too is seen as one of his miracles; how can you ever be able to win with such a claimant?

Believe me that Al-Qaeda in theory is true Islam whilst people differ on their aplication of the theory. I have watched and closely read their literature for over a year and found their argument, in theory, as very compelling and firmly based on Al-Kitab wa Sunnah.

Namely, Nasir Al-Fahd (who gave fatwa that biological and toxin weapons are islamically allowed to be used on non-Muslims) and Sulayman Al-Alwan (who wrote one very powerful and evidently backed account of Taliban), both of whom are currently impresioned in Suadi Arabia for over 5 years without trial, have yet to have their literature refutted by anyone ( the books are only banned) and their books go unchallenged because they used traditionalist methods.

Al-Alwan was said to be offered freedom if he went on TV and said he was wrong, imagine!!, and he refused and said he would be following the lead of the prophet Yosof. Why couldn't they do that by another committee of scholars? Well because this man is very very knowledgeable** and I myself was flabbergasted when I first listened to him a few years back because of his prodigious and flawless memory as well as breathtaking arguments.

He seemed to remember everything he read and does not need references when arguing, like his opponents do. More crucially, he is a Muhadith; a very rare trade in Islamic scholarly those days and many Muslims believe him to be the successor of Al-albani. Because it is the case in Islam that a Fagieeh needs a Muhadith, not the other way around, that at end the traditionalists win.

**listen to this live lecture in Arabic to find out yourself : http://www.islamway.com/?iw_s=Lesson&iw_a=view&lesson_id=13802
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Re: Tonight's BBC2 documentary on muhammed
Reply #59 - July 20, 2011, 07:49 PM

Quote from: Hassan on July 19, 2011, 08:53 PM
That guy is such a joke - I've seen a few of his vids. He begins every video with "Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ to Everyone", then launches into a sneering, vulgar, uncivilised tirade which only makes him appear to be a mean-spirited little man full of resentment and hatred towards Muslims making a joke out his: "Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ to Everyone".

And to make matters worse his knowledge of classical Arabic - and thus the very subject he is criticising - the Qur'an - is appalling. He is clearly an Arabic speaker (probably an Egyptian Copt) - but only knows modern or colloquial well - which I'm afraid is typical of Christian Arabs, who (understandably) generally don't bother to learn classical Arabic deeply.

I came across his videos on the honey bees while making my own - and frankly it's probably the worst debunk ever! He totally misses the real points that undermine the miracle claim - and spends 3 boring vids talking utter nonsense.

Don't believe me?

See for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8wDsZ1Pm08

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ly8DMW5fN0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYGCLtpz7Tw

No ..no., I believe you Hassan., He is NOT a real priestly Christian but a Christian atheist that collects money & support from western Christians to Insult Islam & Muslims mullahs and enrage educed Muslim guys on internet . He often takes things out of hadith and verses from quran that may support hadith nonsense. As far as Arabic his Arabic expertise is concerned I trust you and Ahmad Baghat few others.

forget that guy how about this guy??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8tvcAeVp1k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KepxQ7yvJXc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDMyfF5xCpM

He is done 100s of tube videos..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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