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Theme Changer

 Topic: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations

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  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #90 - December 08, 2013, 04:53 PM

    Hey yeezee. I will respond tommorrow its late. But i think your misunderstanding my post. I simply explained the meanings of the words. Im not claiming miracle or Quran matches science. Opening post wanted to know the arabic and where expanding came from. Ive simply explained that.

    Hello   ThatMuslimGuy., It is possible that I misunderstood your response and  I am glad you are going to clarify my misunderstandings. Please take your time..

    Al-Zaryat (The Scatterers)

    with best wishes
    yeezevee  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #91 - December 08, 2013, 05:16 PM

    ThatMuslimGuy, it's customary for new members to introdence themselves, which you can do here: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?board=2.0

    Just click new topic. Smiley

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #92 - December 09, 2013, 07:26 AM

    Thatmuslimguy

    There's no discipline in your approach - you can't just take a word or phrase in isolation from its context within the Sura, its context within the wider Quran itself ( after all, there are other passages that have a 'cosmological' content as well, and you need to cross-reference with those too, AND with the understandings of these passages given by later commentators, to determine whether the interpretation that you're giving is coherent and consistent  - which it isn't ), and it's place within the wider cultural/historical and traditional context. Otherwise it's just an arbitrary and scattershot exercise in re-defining the meaings of words to suit your own purposes.

    Broadly speaking, it seems to me that you're pursuing the kind of interpretive strategy that results from a revelation gone stale - you can't interpret at the level of the Sura any longer, as, per context of 51, we understand "natural evil" as a physical feature of the universe rather than the result of divine wrath at sinful disobedience - hence your Enochian approach towards an encoded hermetic knowledge immanent within an angelic, rather than natural, language.

    Muslim astronomers didn't use the Quran as a cosmological text - the astronomical/cosmological paradigm that they worked in was largely derived from Ptolemy, Aristotle and other pre-Islamic antecedents. You should consider why that was the case.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #93 - December 09, 2013, 07:33 AM

    .........Muslim astronomers didn't use the Quran as a cosmological text - ......

    Well josephus, they were astronomers  in-spite of Islam and in-spite of Quran and   NOT BECAUSE OF ISLAM AND NOT BECAUSE OF QURAN.   So I certainly give more credit, bit more respect  to those astronomers and those  folks who work/worked in science fields  but happened to be Muslims for no fault of theirs.

    Anyways  I am glad Thatmuslimguy is interested in sciences and he says " Im not claiming miracle or Quran matches science." ., And that is a good thing.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #94 - December 09, 2013, 08:22 AM

    Well josephus, they were astronomers  in-spite of Islam and in-spite of Quran and   NOT BECAUSE OF ISLAM AND NOT BECAUSE OF QURAN.


    Not quite right. I don't think quran in itself was the reason, but a lot of ideas derived from it ecouraged searching for knowledge. Muslims obsession with time (lunar calender, prayer times etc) was also an encouragment. It's not black and white and Islam is not 100% bad or negative. Islamic culture is not just shaoed by religious texts, but its many interpretations, integration with other ideas etc etc etc. Mu'tazilah sect and ahl al kalam are an example of that...

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #95 - December 09, 2013, 08:47 AM

    Not quite right. 

     I don't think quran in itself was the reason, but a lot of ideas derived from it ecouraged searching for knowledge. Muslims obsession with time (lunar calender, prayer times etc) was also an encouragment. It's not black and white and Islam is not 100% bad or negative. Islamic culture is not just shaoed by religious texts, but its many interpretations, integration with other ideas etc etc etc. Mu'tazilah sect and ahl al kalam are an example of that...

    I would agree with all that you said Cornflower., but what is NOT quite right?

     True .. it is not black and white ., to call spade as spade we have to carefully  sieve through the life and works of all those alleged Muslim Astronomers

    And I would say that word "Muslim Astronomers"  is nonsense..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #96 - December 09, 2013, 11:05 AM

    What is not right is that they became astronomers IN SPITE of Islam. And I don't understand why Muslim astronomers is nonsense. A person is never just one thing.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #97 - December 09, 2013, 03:28 PM

    What is not right is that they became astronomers IN SPITE of Islam. And I don't understand why Muslim astronomers is nonsense. A person is never just one thing.

    Ohooff... you got that right Cornflower.,  I didn't choose proper words there..

    well when I wrote that I was reading through Tortilla Quran linguistic miracle  and reading through some A. Q. Khan's Article.

     In other words If any one  spends  enormous amount of his/her  time in religions/religious books and think  all the time about spreading his/her religion and  after life ..before life around the religious nonsense you read in those ancient/medieval silly religious books  then one  will end up being some preacher, some sufi,  or  some  religious nut case  or some politician  who take advantages these religious believers.,  but he/she will  not be able to    do  cutting edge work in Astronomy ot other science fields.  My point was those guys who  became Astronomers happened to  born in Islam and  must have spend very little of their time thinking about allah/Islam/quran.   Off course there are plenty of Scientists, mathematicians, Chemists, Physicists from Muslim families but their use of Islam in their life must be minimal or close to nothing..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #98 - December 09, 2013, 05:02 PM

    Well. That isn't completely true either. A lot of the Islamic worlds scientists were also lesser or greater fuqaha, some were distinguished in both secular and religious fields. Of course not ALL of them, but many. Just like in Europe, religious education was always a part of an educated man (or womans) academia. The thing is that "we" (muslims, ex muslims kuffar etc) often think about the past as some ideal khalifat where everyone werpious... I am typing on my phone so I don't have the patience to write everything down, but there was never NEVER a majority "pure" Islam as salafis and like-minded believe.  A lot if muslim scientists and scholars/intelectuals of the past would be deemed heretics/mubtadi' or even a murtad according to our modern standard of "real Idlam". Al andalus is oneinteresting example...  those who have been tullaab know that every other scholar had "mistakes" or were commiting "bidah"... problem is, Muslims especially salafis would have No scholars left if the rejected them, so most often it is either ignored or down played...

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #99 - December 09, 2013, 05:16 PM

    Well. That isn't completely true either. A lot of the Islamic worlds scientists were also lesser or greater fuqaha, some were distinguished in both secular and religious fields.

    I don't know what secular means here with reference to Astronomy but Cornflower  I would love to see some names here. Life /works of those guys  who were in Science  as well as in religious fields specially from Middle East, Iran and Indian subcontinent
    Quote
    ............. I am typing on my phone so I don't have the patience to write everything down, but there was never NEVER a majority "pure" Islam as salafis and like-minded believe.

     well let us discuss a bit more detail  when you are on key board
    Quote
    A lot if muslim scientists and scholars/intelectuals of the past would be deemed heretics/mubtadi' or even a murtad according to our modern standard of "real Idlam".

     that is an interesting point. Now  forget Salafi fools  of present times or after starting of that Afghan war but how about during their time., Were those guys considered as  heretics/mubtadi  by the rulers or Imams/Islamic preachers??
    Quote
    Al andalus is oneinteresting example...  those who have been tullaab know that every other scholar had "mistakes" or were commiting "bidah"... problem is, Muslims especially salafis would have No scholars left if the rejected them, so most often it is either ignored or down played...

    well Spanish Islam is a specific case which differs a lot from  Islam of Middle east and South east Asia..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #100 - December 09, 2013, 05:42 PM

    I don't know what secular means here with reference to Astronomy but Cornflower  I would love to see some names here. Life /works of those guys  who were in Science  as well as in religious fields specially from Middle East, Iran and Indian subcontinent 


    On top of my head we have ibn al Haytham, ibn Sina, ibn Rushd as well as al Ghazali who wrote both in the field of theology as well aslogic and philosophy. All of them wrote works within the field of Islamic theology as well as other fields. Google them and learn more.

    Secular: not within the field of theology


    Quote
    that is an interesting point. Now  forget Salafi fools  of present times or after starting of that Afghan war but how about during their time., Were those guys considered as  heretics/mubtadi  by the rulers or Imams/Islamic preachers??


    Yes, by some. There was always a smaller fraction "purist" who attacked others for being heretics especially scholars from ahl al kalam and Mu'tazila groups[/quote]


    Quote
    well Spanish Islam is a specific case which differs a lot from  Islam of Middle east and South east Asia..


    Yes, it does. But it is not the only example. In Europe the very first scientists were also priests and monks. It does not differ in the Islamic world.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #101 - December 09, 2013, 07:57 PM

    How many people on this thread who posted actually know arabic?


    And so it begins.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #102 - December 09, 2013, 08:30 PM

    The universe is not expanding, it is in fact retracting.

    I am from the future, and future scientists have made this incredible discovery.


    Genius.

    Ultimately, the problem with the Qur'an isn't the factual accuracy of its scientific claims, but rather the dishonesty with which it arrives at them. The most an Islamic apologist is going to offer as "miracles" in the Quran are that it has passages which conform to the current understanding of scientific advancement (which of course is arguable for the text as a whole).

    However, this does not meet the criteria of a "miracle" in any sense of the word because this scientific knowledge is never actually discovered through studying of the Qur'an. That's left to the boring job of scientists creating models that fit empirical data, ho hum.

    If however, there is something in the Qur'an that is discovered which contradicts currently established scientific consensus, and then is later proven to be true, then this would qualify as a miracle. Honestly, this should not be so difficult to accomplish, and really in a book of "guidance", "without doubt" this should have been accomplished many years ago and all such previously unknown scientific discoveries, such as an expanding universe, of the last century would have been previously discovered in the Qur'an. Instead we are left with the fundamentally dishonest practice of apologists claiming that these verses fit the scientific consensus after the discovery was made.

    All one needs to do is examine the number of discoveries made by such quranic analysis in the muslim world, and compare it to the actual accomplishments of the scientific method to see how bunk and dishonest this whole affair really is.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #103 - December 10, 2013, 10:20 PM

    ......Yes the word Wasi means to expand, to widen, to enlarge, to extend. I never said otherwise. This would mean Allah is continously increasing the size of the Universe, Expanding/widening/enlarging it.

    huh! fascinating  statement.   Out of a single word "warsi".. It means "to expand" that means Universe is continuously expanding  in all directions   and all that comes out single word of Quran??    Well believing ThatMuslimGuy,  I decided to read whole chapter from Quran to find out  whether I could  get enlightenment and unknown science out of it. 

    I closed my eyes and Opened Quran.  My luck took me to chapter-66 At- Tahrim. My goal is to see whether I could pick  up a word from those verses either already discovered or new laws of Modern Physics, Biologic or Physical Laws that controls universe.. such As   "Law" of Gravity.,  Conservation of Mass-Energy, Laws of Thermodynamics., Electrostatic Laws., Invariance of the Speed of Light   or Amino acid encoding genetic code  etc..etc..

    Here is whole chapter all words  from  At- Tahrim.  
    Quote
    مَرْضَاتَ أَزْوَاجِكَ ۚ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ
       O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    2     قَدْ فَرَضَ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ تَحِلَّةَ أَيْمَانِكُمْ ۚ وَاللَّهُ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ وَهُوَ الْعَلِيمُ الْحَكِيمُ
       Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise.

    3     وَإِذْ أَسَرَّ النَّبِيُّ إِلَىٰ بَعْضِ أَزْوَاجِهِ حَدِيثًا فَلَمَّا نَبَّأَتْ بِهِ وَأَظْهَرَهُ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ عَرَّفَ بَعْضَهُ وَأَعْرَضَ عَن بَعْضٍ ۖ فَلَمَّا نَبَّأَهَا بِهِ قَالَتْ مَنْ أَنبَأَكَ هَـٰذَا ۖ قَالَ نَبَّأَنِيَ الْعَلِيمُ الْخَبِيرُ
    And when the prophet secretly communicated a piece of information to one of his wives-- but when she informed (others) of it, and Allah made him to know it, he made known part of it and avoided part; so when he informed her of it, she said: Who informed you of this? He said: The Knowing, the one Aware, informed me.

    4     إِن تَتُوبَا إِلَى اللَّهِ فَقَدْ صَغَتْ قُلُوبُكُمَا ۖ وَإِن تَظَاهَرَا عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ۖ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَ‌ٰلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ
    If you both turn to Allah, then indeed your hearts are already inclined (to this); and if you back up each other against him, then surely Allah it is Who is his Guardian, and Jibreel and -the believers that do good, and the angels after that are the aiders.

    5     عَسَىٰ رَبُّهُ إِن طَلَّقَكُنَّ أَن يُبْدِلَهُ أَزْوَاجًا خَيْرًا مِّنكُنَّ مُسْلِمَاتٍ مُّؤْمِنَاتٍ قَانِتَاتٍ تَائِبَاتٍ عَابِدَاتٍ سَائِحَاتٍ ثَيِّبَاتٍ وَأَبْكَارًا
    Shakir 5:    Maybe, his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins.

    6     يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا قُوا أَنفُسَكُمْ وَأَهْلِيكُمْ نَارًا وَقُودُهَا النَّاسُ وَالْحِجَارَةُ عَلَيْهَا مَلَائِكَةٌ غِلَاظٌ شِدَادٌ لَّا يَعْصُونَ اللَّهَ مَا أَمَرَهُمْ وَيَفْعَلُونَ مَا يُؤْمَرُونَ
    O you who believe! save yourselves and your families from a fire whose fuel is men and stones; over it are angels stern and strong, they do not disobey Allah in what He commands them, and do as they are commanded.

    7     يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَا تَعْتَذِرُوا الْيَوْمَ ۖ إِنَّمَا تُجْزَوْنَ مَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ
    O you who disbelieve! do not urge excuses today; you shall be rewarded only according to what you did.

    8     يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا تُوبُوا إِلَى اللَّهِ تَوْبَةً نَّصُوحًا عَسَىٰ رَبُّكُمْ أَن يُكَفِّرَ عَنكُمْ سَيِّئَاتِكُمْ وَيُدْخِلَكُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ يَوْمَ لَا يُخْزِي اللَّهُ النَّبِيَّ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا مَعَهُ ۖ نُورُهُمْ يَسْعَىٰ بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَبِأَيْمَانِهِمْ يَقُولُونَ رَبَّنَا أَتْمِمْ لَنَا نُورَنَا وَاغْفِرْ لَنَا ۖ إِنَّكَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ
    O you who believe! turn to Allah a sincere turning; maybe your Lord will remove from you your evil and cause you to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, on the day on which Allah will not abase the Prophet and those who believe with him; their light shall run on before them and on their right hands; they shall say: Our Lord! make perfect for us our light, and grant us protection, surely Thou hast power over all things.

    9     يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ جَاهِدِ الْكُفَّارَ وَالْمُنَافِقِينَ وَاغْلُظْ عَلَيْهِمْ ۚ وَمَأْوَاهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ ۖ وَبِئْسَ الْمَصِيرُ
    O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be hard against them; and their abode is hell; and evil is the resort.

    10     ضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا امْرَأَتَ نُوحٍ وَامْرَأَتَ لُوطٍ ۖ كَانَتَا تَحْتَ عَبْدَيْنِ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا صَالِحَيْنِ فَخَانَتَاهُمَا فَلَمْ يُغْنِيَا عَنْهُمَا مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئًا وَقِيلَ ادْخُلَا النَّارَ مَعَ الدَّاخِلِينَ
    Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut: they were both under two of Our righteous servants, but they acted treacherously towards them so they availed them naught against Allah, and it was said: Enter both the fire with those who enter.

    11     وَضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلًا لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا امْرَأَتَ فِرْعَوْنَ إِذْ قَالَتْ رَبِّ ابْنِ لِي عِندَكَ بَيْتًا فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَنَجِّنِي مِن فِرْعَوْنَ وَعَمَلِهِ وَنَجِّنِي مِنَ الْقَوْمِ الظَّالِمِينَ
    And Allah sets forth an example to those who believe the wife of Firon when she said: My Lord! build for me a house with Thee in the garden and deliver me from Firon and his doing, and deliver me from the unjust people:

    12     وَمَرْيَمَ ابْنَتَ عِمْرَانَ الَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِنَا وَصَدَّقَتْ بِكَلِمَاتِ رَبِّهَا وَكُتُبِهِ وَكَانَتْ مِنَ الْقَانِتِينَ
    And Marium, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our inspiration and she accepted the truth of the words of her Lord and His books, and she was of, the obedient ones.


    That is whole chapter from ALLAH......God.. The God that controls this whole universe., billions and billions of planets.,   Well Now let me pick up and  high light some words from that chapter  that may have some secret science ..

    Oh my goodness gracious.,   I do see  some words that have full of science and profound meaning 
    Quote
    "breathed.,  fire.,  light., Power., lawful for you...

      My goodness so many words and so much science in them..  

     So.,   Breathed  Means??   It must be breathing Air., that means  all those gases, N2, O2, Argon, CO2 are entering  in to your respiratory system.,  And It also must mean., Lung function,   Oxygen transport and oxygen delivery., Oxygen consumption and ATP production..  So Much science behind that word in that verse.  

    Fire, Light, Power., .... Oh boy.,  These words have everything in them. Fire probably means Sun., That means Nuclear fusion., Light must mean   speed of light  which is constant and it is fundamental to origin of Quantum mechanics  and origin of universe  

    Now I wonder what Power means here?? could it be "Strength"?  ??  
    Quote
    Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 5, Number 268:  Narrated Qatada:

    Anas bin Malik said, “The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number.” I asked Anas, “Had the Prophet the strength for it?” Anas replied, “We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men).” And Sa’id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).

    power of  thirty  men??    does it mean  it is like  30 HP motor??   well so much to think .,

     let me watch some  tubes..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X-EQ8FcOJo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDaFQsdNNgU

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #104 - December 12, 2013, 03:21 PM



    I always understood his usage in the way:

     Extremely bad or unpleasant; terrible

    not in:

    Commanding awe

    Will make that change. Thankyou

    Quote


    Yes there are various interpretations. I detailed a few in my post. I wasnt debating this at all. The verse contains so many various meanings and messages to reflect upon.

    Quote
    The rest of the "quoted" Tafsir I can not find at all. Without proper reference I can neither confirm nor deny. The work is incomplete therefore I can dismiss it as such. Unfortunately most of the work is copy/pasted all over the net. I can not even confirm this is your work. Many of the verses switch between heaven or sky. You can not change a translation to fit your meaning. If a verse is talking about sky it is about the sky not universe. Like-wise with Heaven. If you do this then you begin to distort the intending meaning in context to fit your context.


    And I accept that. I need to reference it more.

    My main point was not regarding the Tafsirs. My main point was regarding what the Arabic word means.

    Regarding the use of Sammaa I also need to add a section discussing what it is refering to in this Ayat. thankyou.

    Quote
    I found more of these copy/pasted work as results than anything creditable. Some of the words you use are either misspelled or simply do not have the same meaning you imply. Again you need to clean up your work, provide proper references in English, as this is the language you are using, so English speakers such as myself can research your findings.


     Afro
  • Re: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #105 - December 12, 2013, 03:26 PM

    And I am going to say Cornflower  words are "Truly beautiful" .,  and because her words are applicable to all religious books., I would say they are Truly  beautiful verses  with logic.  and i have no hesitation to believe  that they are of divine origin    Subhan Allah ...Subhan Cornflower..


    Lol haha I was refering to if Muslim looks at this verse beleiving it is from God and reflects upon its message alot of benefits can be taken.


    Quote
    Any way couple of points on that claim of Muslim intellectuals  who    say that   "Quran- Verse 51:47  discovered " Expanding Universe" some 1000 years before Dr.  Edwin Powell Hubble "

    1) Again let us read the verse carefully..it says  
     that verse  is nothing to do with Universe Expanding in every direction., ., It only says we are expanding., expanding what?? potbelly??  their heaven to make space to more momins and more houris??  Expanding hell for unbelievers??   Moreover "On the theory of expansion of Universe"  which  itself has origin in that big-bang theory.,  People are  are still questioning and still looking alternate theories for the origin of universe.


    I think you misunderstood the word used here. It is not Heaven in the sense of jannah or Paradise. But Heaven in the sense of the wider Universe.

    It simple says God built it and he is expanding it.

    Quote
    Serious problem is After that 1930s.. everyone is claiming their religious scriptures predicted  .. Big Bang.. bang bang.,  Expansion of universe, black holes white dwarfs and neutron stars, Astrophysics  and all that.  


    Like I said im not sat here claim science in the Quran miracle etc etc.

    Quote
    The point is, Like  Muslims intellectuals,  they too  play with words of their respective scriptures to couple them to Modern Science .   Here are links for you ThatMuslimGuy


    Any ways these so-called silly religious  books are  books of their time and logic of their times., in 21st century such books  are only good to provide heat on a cold winter day..


    Yes ive read things like that before.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #106 - December 12, 2013, 03:30 PM

    Thatmuslimguy

    There's no discipline in your approach - you can't just take a word or phrase in isolation from its context within the Sura, its context within the wider Quran itself ( after all, there are other passages that have a 'cosmological' content as well, and you need to cross-reference with those too, AND with the understandings of these passages given by later commentators, to determine whether the interpretation that you're giving is coherent and consistent  - which it isn't ), and it's place within the wider cultural/historical and traditional context. Otherwise it's just an arbitrary and scattershot exercise in re-defining the meaings of words to suit your own purposes.


    Hello  Smiley I simple provided the linguistic understand of the word used. If you believe what i said is Linguistically incorrect present how and why.

    Quote
    Broadly speaking, it seems to me that you're pursuing the kind of interpretive strategy that results from a revelation gone stale - you can't interpret at the level of the Sura any longer, as, per context of 51, we understand "natural evil" as a physical feature of the universe rather than the result of divine wrath at sinful disobedience - hence your Enochian approach towards an encoded hermetic knowledge immanent within an angelic, rather than natural, language.

    Muslim astronomers didn't use the Quran as a cosmological text - the astronomical/cosmological paradigm that they worked in was largely derived from Ptolemy, Aristotle and other pre-Islamic antecedents. You should consider why that was the case.


    And im not using the Quran either. The Quran isnt a science text book or scientific. I simply detailed the meanings of the word.

    I have found it interesting how previously someone "explained" the linguistic meaning and everyone just nodded away. But not i cite some Dictionaries and Tafsirs and suddenly everyone questions.
  • Re: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #107 - December 12, 2013, 03:35 PM

    huh! fascinating  statement.   Out of a single word "warsi".. It means "to expand" that means Universe is continuously expanding  in all directions   and all that comes out single word of Quran??    Well believing ThatMuslimGuy,  I decided to read whole chapter from Quran to find out  whether I could  get enlightenment and unknown science out of it. 


     Cheesy Dude im not claiming you will find scientific truths in the Quran. The Quran is far from scientific and is vague. The usage of any passage regarding natural phenonomon is used to make the reader reflect on the creation around him. They are not scientific statements or claims.

    Quote
    I closed my eyes and Opened Quran.  My luck took me to chapter-66 At- Tahrim. My goal is to see whether I could pick  up a word from those verses either already discovered or new laws of Modern Physics, Biologic or Physical Laws that controls universe.. such As   "Law" of Gravity.,  Conservation of Mass-Energy, Laws of Thermodynamics., Electrostatic Laws., Invariance of the Speed of Light   or Amino acid encoding genetic code  etc..etc..

    Here is whole chapter all words  from  At- Tahrim.  
    That is whole chapter from ALLAH......God.. The God that controls this whole universe., billions and billions of planets.,   Well Now let me pick up and  high light some words from that chapter  that may have some secret science ..

    Oh my goodness gracious.,   I do see  some words that have full of science and profound meaning   My goodness so many words and so much science in them..  

     So.,   Breathed  Means??   It must be breathing Air., that means  all those gases, N2, O2, Argon, CO2 are entering  in to your respiratory system.,  And It also must mean., Lung function,   Oxygen transport and oxygen delivery., Oxygen consumption and ATP production..  So Much science behind that word in that verse.  

    Fire, Light, Power., .... Oh boy.,  These words have everything in them. Fire probably means Sun., That means Nuclear fusion., Light must mean   speed of light  which is constant and it is fundamental to origin of Quantum mechanics  and origin of universe  

    Now I wonder what Power means here?? could it be "Strength"?  ??  power of  thirty  men??    does it mean  it is like  30 HP motor??   well so much to think .,


     Takbir! Its a miracle!!!  Cheesy

     Tongue
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #108 - December 12, 2013, 03:36 PM

    The Quran is a science text book or scientific.

    Now I blame my teacher for not teaching me science from the Quran.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #109 - December 12, 2013, 03:37 PM

    ThatMuslimGuy, it's customary for new members to introdence themselves, which you can do here: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?board=2.0

    Just click new topic. Smiley


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #110 - December 12, 2013, 03:43 PM

    Cheesy Dude im not claiming you will find scientific truths in the Quran. The Quran is far from scientific and is vague.

     



    And im not using the Quran either. The Quran is a science text book or scientific.

  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #111 - December 12, 2013, 03:50 PM

    Any reasons for the quote inception?
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #112 - December 12, 2013, 03:58 PM

    I think it was meant to highlight the contradiction.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #113 - December 12, 2013, 03:59 PM

    ^that
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #114 - December 12, 2013, 03:59 PM

    Oh typo. Thats mena be "isnt". I will change that.  Afro
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #115 - December 12, 2013, 05:08 PM

    Cheesy Dude   ...  Takbir! Its a miracle!!!  Cheesy

     Tongue

    Yap.. Takebeer.,  and   Jazakallah ..Jazakallah... Jazakallah  .,  indeed it is a miracle ThatMuslimGuy.  but you are 17  .. wait for some time for that "Take beer". Well i was stupid not to realize that you  are 17..

    Age for  drinking beer may be >17 but there is nothing wrong in watching   explicit movie

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ40_LxDDt4

    Hmm That is interesting .. Prof.  Steven Weinberg  talk about his colleague  Prof. Adbus Salaam

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_mYiqHbL6A#t=89

    watch it what  Prof.  Steven Weinberg  says  about his colleague  Prof. Adbus Salaam...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #116 - December 13, 2013, 06:47 AM

    Cheesy Dude im not claiming you will find scientific truths in the Quran. The Quran is far from scientific and is vague. The usage of any passage regarding natural phenonomon is used to make the reader reflect on the creation around him. They are not scientific statements or claims.

     

     Tongue


    And this differs how from the dizzying array of texts - secular and sacred - that pre-date the Quran, in some cases by 1500+ years, that deal with the same things, use the same kinds of poetic expression ( and in other cases far superior modes of clear prose composition ), and are often considerably more lucid, unambiguious and accurate?
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #117 - December 13, 2013, 07:02 AM

    Hello  Smiley I simple provided the linguistic understand of the word used. If you believe what i said is Linguistically incorrect present how and why.

    .


    "the linguistic understanding" - firstly, meanings aren't fixed entities, as language is dynamic and there are semantic shifts over time and space.

    The "linguistic" understanding that you're retailing in the context of Sura 51 is a modern gloss, and if you want to argue that the translation is valid, you actually have to go and do the REAL work, which involves trawling through the universe of astronomical, cosmological and philosophical texts written in Arabic from the 8th century onwards to validate whether this corresponds to reality. It's called scholarship - people spend years doing PhD's on this kind of thing.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #118 - December 13, 2013, 07:21 AM

    ^THANK you. People discuss linguistics as if their experts, but most haven"t even taken an introductory course on the subject. This is especially true for those who like to dwell on the qurans "linguistic miracles".

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #119 - December 13, 2013, 08:52 AM


    Yes there are various interpretations. I detailed a few in my post. I wasnt debating this at all. The verse contains so many various meanings and messages to reflect upon.


     

    The linked Tafsir are the ones I could find. The rest I can not find using a reliable source. That was my point on linking these not anything else. However you do raise another point, one which you seem it admit to ignoring. If Tafsirs have multiple meanings, which do not always support your claim, why use any of these as evidence backing your translation. Only 1 of the linked Tafsirs even suggests what you said in the claim, which was extending not expanding. Two of the others do not contain any of these words or even the words in Arabic. Now this could be due to typeface used by your or the site I am referencing. This is part of the issue with a lack of references.


    My main point was not regarding the Tafsirs. My main point was regarding what the Arabic word means.


     

    Yes but if you use Tafsir as evidence yet can not provide references to these sources it undermines your claims. Also the Tafsirs do not agree with what you said in your paper. This is my point

    What I am trying to say without being meaning is your paper would be rejected in an academic setting. To be honest your paper would be rejected in a grade 12 English Literature class due to many of the issues I raised. You have established your claim but failed to establish clear references to support your claims. Your works cited do not support your claim, for the three I was able to find. Sorry to harp on this issue but I think you fail to understand that shoddy work invalidates your claim, you can not back it up. We (I) do not need to prove you wrong as you have failed to prove yourself correct to begin with.

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