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 Topic: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations

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  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #60 - December 03, 2013, 12:59 PM

    And the heaven We constructed with strength and surely We are it's expander. [Quran 51:47]


    There is a logical difference between "We are it's expander", and "We are expanding it" as I already explained, and as you never addressed.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #61 - December 03, 2013, 01:43 PM

    Quote
    allah is (continues to be) the one who expands


    He needs to see a doctor - very high risk of type 2 diabetes and complications like Alzheimer's.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #62 - December 03, 2013, 02:01 PM

    There is a logical difference between "We are it's expander", and "We are expanding it" as I already explained, and as you never addressed.



    The former is entirely logical with an allah that acts timelessly. The latter, not so much.

    Anyway I have my suspicions re: TMG but I'll keep quiet. The KGB are onto you!
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #63 - December 03, 2013, 02:10 PM

    Hey Quod Sum Eris

    I was referring to the Tafsir I posted. I was saying there is no official translation. Its in Arabic.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #64 - December 03, 2013, 02:11 PM

    There is a logical difference between "We are it's expander", and "We are expanding it" as I already explained, and as you never addressed.



    As explained in my response the word can be understood both ways. They both refer to a continuous expansion due to the word being an Active Participle.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #65 - December 03, 2013, 02:12 PM

    The former is entirely logical with an allah that acts timelessly. The latter, not so much.

    Anyway I have my suspicions re: TMG but I'll keep quiet. The KGB are onto you!


    Suspicions?  Huh?
  • Re: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #66 - December 03, 2013, 02:18 PM

    The issue is I can not look up these Tafsirs to see if your translation agrees with proper linguistic translations. You care what the Arabic says but you are translating Arabic to English for us. It is the same thing the authors of the translation I cited are doing...  Your translation could be wrong in sentence structure and context.


    The main part of my post is refering to what the Arabic says. I added in the classical Tafsirs just as an addition.


    Quote
    Even your own images show you are picking one of several meanings without citing any context as to why one definition is applied but not the others. Why is expand(ing) used instead of develop. Why are the other 7 or more meaning ruled out?


    Im not picking meaning if you read my post i said all of the meanings are implied. Showing the perfect word Allah used to convey so many meanings.

    Quote
    Part of the miraculous nature of the Quran is that uses word(s) that have more than one meaning and all these meanings are intended. So in conclusion after looking at classical commentaries three meanings are given for the word موسعون (mūsi’ūna):

    1. To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
    2. To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
    3. To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster.



    Quote
    Your quoted Tafsirs do nothing to support your cases as these are not about the verse in question. The few I was able to look up are indeed using the word you cite but in different verses about different things, events, abilities and people. The structure and meaning can be modified by the other words within the verse or just context in general. I also can not confirm your dictionary citation as proposed. It does mean expand but also means widen, make wide(r) or (more) spacious, broaden, enlarge, extend, expand, dilate; to amplify; to develop, elaborate (upon), to space (out).

     

    Yes the word Wasi means to expand, to widen, to enlarge, to extend. I never said otherwise. This would mean Allah is continously increasing the size of the Universe, Expanding/widening/enlarging it.

    Quote
    These words have different meaning in context and sentence structure. This is what happens when you translate one language to another. This is what happens when you piecemeal a translation. It loses context, intended meaning, phrase structure.


    How would you translate the verse. I would translate it with quite a few meanings. One being expanding it.

    Quote
    I see piecemeal translation all the time and am fully aware of the issues with your methodology. For this reason alone I am asking you for better references. This is what I, and the rest of academy, expect to see. Author, Translation Author, Book, Publication, Year, Edition, Page, Format. Ex. Leroux, Marcel. Global Warming: Myth Or Reality?: The Erring Ways of Climatology. New York: Springer, 2005. Print. Why should I consider your translations correct and Pickthall's in error? Especially considering the flawed methods you have used I stated above. I need to be able to analysis your translation before even considering the meaning of the verse and it's interpretation.


    Thats a valid point. In the future I will improve the references and sources of my article. I written it quite a while ago and needs lots of improvements.

    Why not look to the arabic? Its clear in what it means. Musioona - The Expander/Expanding it.
  • Re: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #67 - December 03, 2013, 02:25 PM

    Suspicions?  Huh?


    NVM.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #68 - December 03, 2013, 02:38 PM

    I think that perhaps you should take a step back and think about what it is that you're actually doing here.

    I'd like to make two observations:

    Firstly, it seems to me that you've gone down the pathway of accepting that science is the authoritative domain of knowledge that the Quran MUST literally conform to; what the theological consequences of that are, well, I'll leave that up to you to decide. However, it's not a neutral or non-trivial position. You can of course avoid this entirely by accepting that the text is, amongst other things, a poetic, literary and metaphorical rendering, not a hermetically encoded set of universally objective references to the real that, disconcertingly, can only be appropriated post-hoc, after a non-islamic epistemology has revealed them.

    Secondly, you're going down the pathway of making the Quran incomprehensible, and, possibly worse, meaningless - if the text can mean anything that an extrinsic set of circumstances/state of knowledge require it to mean, then it means nothing.

  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #69 - December 03, 2013, 03:11 PM

    I think that perhaps you should take a step back and think about what it is that you're actually doing here.

    I'd like to make two observations:

    Firstly, it seems to me that you've gone down the pathway of accepting that science is the authoritative domain of knowledge that the Quran MUST literally conform to; what the theological consequences of that are, well, I'll leave that up to you to decide. However, it's not a neutral or non-trivial position. You can of course avoid this entirely by accepting that the text is, amongst other things, a poetic, literary and metaphorical rendering, not a hermetically encoded set of universally objective references to the real that, disconcertingly, can only be appropriated post-hoc, after a non-islamic epistemology has revealed them.

    Secondly, you're going down the pathway of making the Quran incomprehensible, and, possibly worse, meaningless - if the text can mean anything that an extrinsic set of circumstances/state of knowledge require it to mean, then it means nothing.

    hello josephus., Good post and good observation of CEMB folks.,  I never read any of your posts. Plenty of questions on your words., but if every Islamic preacher, Islamic king, Islamic Mullah and Islamic intellectual  think the way you presented and that is.. Quran as

    Quote
    "...a poetic, literary and metaphorical rendering, not a hermetically encoded set of universally objective references to the real that, disconcertingly."


    Then  no one will have any problems with  any religions/scriptures and there is no reason to have any discussion on Quran.,  Any way what I don't understand is,  these words from you
     
    Quote
      amongst other things,


    What "other things" you see in Quran apart from  poetic, literary and metaphorical prose/sayings??

    And welcome to CEMB..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #70 - December 03, 2013, 03:57 PM

    Thanks, Yeezevee.

    "Other things?"

    Legal proscriptions and prescriptions, moral scoldings, the theology of signs, warnings and threats. Legal texts are never that much fun - it's not like anyone reads the code civile for pleasure.

    The comment was addressed to Thatmuslimguy and his Bucaillist tendencies - I should have clarified that - although I suppose it applies to anyone getting caught up in this kind of discourse. Thanks for tipping me off to that.

    Given that prior to Ijaz-mania there'd been 1400 years of ongoing discussion, debate and argument of what the Quran means, what are the correct hermeneutic procedures to apply to it, attempts at historicizing the mythical and legendary aspects of it, historiography etc,  I rather suspect that EVERYTHING is still readily discussible.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #71 - December 03, 2013, 03:59 PM

    I think that perhaps you should take a step back and think about what it is that you're actually doing here.

    I'd like to make two observations:

    Firstly, it seems to me that you've gone down the pathway of accepting that science is the authoritative domain of knowledge that the Quran MUST literally conform to; what the theological consequences of that are, well, I'll leave that up to you to decide. However, it's not a neutral or non-trivial position. You can of course avoid this entirely by accepting that the text is, amongst other things, a poetic, literary and metaphorical rendering, not a hermetically encoded set of universally objective references to the real that, disconcertingly, can only be appropriated post-hoc, after a non-islamic epistemology has revealed them.

    Secondly, you're going down the pathway of making the Quran incomprehensible, and, possibly worse, meaningless - if the text can mean anything that an extrinsic set of circumstances/state of knowledge require it to mean, then it means nothing.




    Hey,

    Maybe you misunderstood my original post. Im not here saying the Quran is miraculous or scientific or matches science etc.

    Im simply clarifying the meanings of the words.

    Where have i made the Quran incomprehensible. The word Musioona is a very clear word.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #72 - December 03, 2013, 04:24 PM

    "Showing the perfect word Allah used to convey so many meanings"....Huh??

    Your words.

    The "many meanings" that can only be deduced post-hoc, per eisegetical manipulations and an abusive hermeneutic, that violates the plain meaning of the text and how it was understood, to make the text conform to a human epistemological standard that is, whether you understand it or not, now placed in a position of dominance over the text.

    The "Perfect words of Allah" can't be perfect if they're subject to human discipline.

  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #73 - December 03, 2013, 04:59 PM

    Quote
    The "many meanings" that can only be deduced post-hoc, per eisegetical manipulations and an abusive hermeneutic, that violates the plain meaning of the text and how it was understood, to make the text conform to a human epistemological standard that is, whether you understand it or not, now placed in a position of dominance over the text.

    The "Perfect words of Allah" can't be perfect if they're subject to human discipline.


    That is the plain meaning of the text. musioona is one who does Awsa. Awsa means to expand. Meaning God is expanding the universe.

    If you fail to appreciate a verse that says that Allah provides for the creation, that Allah encompasses the universe with his knowledge and authority and that Allah is expanding the Universe. Truly a beautiful verse for the believers to reflect upon. Subhan Allah.

    Quote
    Part of the miraculous nature of the Quran is that uses word(s) that have more than one meaning and all these meanings are intended. So in conclusion after looking at classical commentaries three meanings are given for the word:

    To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
    To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
    To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster.


    Are you proposing ive manipulated something? I havnt ive explained the clear meanings of the word.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #74 - December 03, 2013, 07:41 PM

    Wow sounds interesting. So what do you do exactly. Analyse the claims made and write rebuttals?

    Yap  that is exactly what I do.

    I do analyze claims/hypothesis.,  I try to understand those claims.  If they appear to be wrong I do write rebuttals and I also propose new hypothesis on a given subject .  And if my proposals are  proven to be wrong by others or by  me,  I propose new concepts,  do new experiments   to prove those newly proposed concepts either right or  wrong.  And... and that process of proposals and experiments will  continue    ThatMuslimGuy.

     Forget what I do but your responses here are smart very ariticulative., You say to  josephus on that Quran- Verse 51:47
    .................. Allah is expanding the Universe. Truly a beautiful verse for the believers to reflect upon. Subhan Allah.

    Off course for believers every word of Quran, every verse of Quran is beautiful., That is true for all believers of every religion. Muslims and Quran is no exception to that rule.   watch these tubes

    Quote

    watch all 5 parts of  Wayne Bent aka Michael Travesser and his followers.   See that.,  his followers(including his own son)  think Michael Travesser  is some messenger and his words and actions are beautiful... guided by some god.  Damn that Prophet Muhammad(PBUH),  Hadhrat Zaynab (ra) , Hadhrat Zayed (ra)  story repeats in  with  that guy  Michael Travesser...

    Anyway the point is  " the beauty is in the believer's/followers  eyes and mind"

      You say
    That is the plain meaning of the text. musioona is one who does Awsa. Awsa means to expand. Meaning God is expanding the universe.

    If you fail to appreciate a verse that says that Allah provides for the creation, that Allah encompasses the universe with his knowledge and authority and that Allah is expanding the Universe...


    Suppose I agree with you "that word" meaning is expanding and  51:47 verse says..
    Quote
    وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ (47)

    And (as for) the heaven, We have built it with power; and indeed, We are expanding.
    [Al Quran ; 51:47]  


    So what does that mean??  Let us try to use bit of commonsense .. So allah says " We have Heaven is built  with power and we are expanding" .,

     Does it really mean "Universe is expanding?? or is this allah heaven like the International space station where the Astronauts  every year go on building/expanding  the existing space station??

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtrVwX1ncqk

    Next question comes about other verses in Quran.,  Is every verse of Quran beautiful and meaningful?  How much of it is repetitive nonsense? And who wrote/compiled Quran?? How much quran did they copy from other sources of that time??

    Anyways  what is god  and where is god in your understanding of god??

    There are so many questions ThatMuslimGuy.  Off course you must have freedom to believe whatever you like and I have the freedom to explore and question that subject. well so many questions..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaX4iGw-b_Y

    and let me watch that Cosmic Journey  to imagine  How Large   the Universe is.   And  Please continue to read/write in to CEMB and if possible click the links to watch.,  they are educational..

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #75 - December 03, 2013, 08:01 PM

    The word samaa' doesn't even mean "universe" and is therefore ambiguous and can mean whatever the reader wants it to mean. And even if it did mean "universe", to think that allmighty god is able to continously expand the sky (or universe, whatever) isn't something no mortal had ever thaught about before or something that was "unthinkable". Especially if Muhammad or whoever wrote the Quran wanted to highlight the greatness of allah. Allahu akbar yani. As had been already been said, it's kinda opportunistic to claim "scientific miracles" in hindsight so to say...

    Furthermore, even if we say that the verse really does means "expanding the universe" without any doubt and therefore is in line with what we today know is a fact about the universe, so what??? There are numerous other verses that goes against what we today know are scientific facts. I would accept this "scientific claim" as a legitimate argument for the divinine origin of the Quran, if it actually was flawless... which it isn't...

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #76 - December 03, 2013, 11:21 PM

    ..........and that Allah is expanding the Universe. Truly a beautiful verse for the believers to reflect upon. Subhan Allah.

     
    The word samaa' doesn't even mean "universe" and is therefore ambiguous and can mean whatever the reader wants it to mean. And even if it did mean "universe", to think that allmighty god is able to continously expand the sky (or universe, whatever) isn't something no mortal had ever thaught about before or something that was "unthinkable". Especially if Muhammad or whoever wrote the Quran wanted to highlight the greatness of allah. Allahu akbar yani. As had been already been said, it's kinda opportunistic to claim "scientific miracles" in hindsight so to say...

    Furthermore, even if we say that the verse really does means "expanding the universe" without any doubt and therefore is in line with what we today know is a fact about the universe, so what??? There are numerous other verses that goes against what we today know are scientific facts. I would accept this "scientific claim" as a legitimate argument for the divinine origin of the Quran, if it actually was flawless... which it isn't...

    And I am going to say Cornflower  words are "Truly beautiful" .,  and because her words are applicable to all religious books., I would say they are Truly  beautiful verses  with logic.  and i have no hesitation to believe  that they are of divine origin    Subhan Allah ...Subhan Cornflower..


    Any way couple of points on that claim of Muslim intellectuals  who    say that   "Quran- Verse 51:47  discovered " Expanding Universe" some 1000 years before Dr.  Edwin Powell Hubble "

    1) Again let us read the verse carefully..it says  

    Quote

    وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُون      
     

    And (as for) the heaven, We have built it with power; and indeed, We are expanding. [Al Quran ; 51:47]  

     that verse  is nothing to do with Universe Expanding in every direction., ., It only says we are expanding., expanding what?? potbelly??  their heaven to make space to more momins and more houris??  Expanding hell for unbelievers??   Moreover "On the theory of expansion of Universe"  which  itself has origin in that big-bang theory.,  People are  are still questioning and still looking alternate theories for the origin of universe.

    Serious problem is After that 1930s.. everyone is claiming their religious scriptures predicted  .. Big Bang.. bang bang.,  Expansion of universe, black holes white dwarfs and neutron stars, Astrophysics  and all that.  

    The point is, Like  Muslims intellectuals,  they too  play with words of their respective scriptures to couple them to Modern Science .   Here are links for you ThatMuslimGuy

    Quote
    Does the Bible Say Anything about Astronomy?
    The Bible is the history book of the universe. It tells us how the universe began and how it came to be the way it is today. The Bible is much more than just a history book, however; it was written by inspiration of God. The Lord certainly understands how this universe works; after all, He made it. So His Word, the Bible, gives us the foundation for understanding the universe. Bible tells ..

    The Earth Is Round .,  The Earth Floats in Space., The Expansion of the Universe., The Age of the Universe.,  Recession of the Moon., Magnetic Fields of the Planets., Spiral Galaxies .da...da.d...da...

    Go read that book at that link   ThatMuslimGuy.. and here

    Big Bang—The Bible Taught It First!  July 1, 2000  By Dr. Hugh Ross

    Does the Bible really describe expansion of the universe?  by John Hartnett

    God, Genesis and the big bang  The Origin of the Universe

    Scientific Facts In The Bible by Carol Brooks

    17 verses in the Bible state that God expanded  the size of the Universe from its original size.  What affect did that have on time, and on red and blue shift?

    Any ways these so-called silly religious  books are  books of their time and logic of their times., in 21st century such books  are only good to provide heat on a cold winter day..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #77 - December 04, 2013, 12:08 AM

    The main part of my post is refering to what the Arabic says. I added in the classical Tafsirs just as an addition.


    Im not picking meaning if you read my post i said all of the meanings are implied. Showing the perfect word Allah used to convey so many meanings.

     

    Yes the word Wasi means to expand, to widen, to enlarge, to extend. I never said otherwise. This would mean Allah is continously increasing the size of the Universe, Expanding/widening/enlarging it.

    How would you translate the verse. I would translate it with quite a few meanings. One being expanding it.

    Thats a valid point. In the future I will improve the references and sources of my article. I written it quite a while ago and needs lots of improvements.

    Why not look to the arabic? Its clear in what it means. Musioona - The Expander/Expanding it.


    Go over your work again. Notice the highlighted and underlined expand with the complete lack of the same for other words. The word has other meanings which you ignore. You didn't say otherwise as you only pick expand as the meaning nor did you even remotely suggest all the definitions apply.

     http://www.almaany.com/home.php?language=arabic&lang_name=%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A&word=%D8%A3%D9%88%D8%B3%D8%B9&ModPagespeed=noscript. I have searched dictionaries for many of the words you have used. However I do not net the same meaning as you. أوسع for example is wider not expand. Wide(r) or broad(er) does not carry the same meaning as expand(ing). Go over your work again as you omit meaning. If you really intended to show all meanings you would have but you did not. You picked one meaning and went with it. You could of done a better job with the other definitions.

    There are a few different methods of translations. One can do the piecemeal job of word by word which results in a translation that is just a jumble of words that may or may not provide the meaning of the verse in the original Classical Arabic. You can do a phrase translation in which you take the verse itself and translate the whole meaning. Certain words are dropped in the translation in order to maintain the same phrase meaning. One could also do a meaning for meaning translation. This method includes the context of preceding and seceding verses. Also include not just tafsir usage of the word in the text itself in other contexts. Also include the definition of the Arabic and English words you are trying to link/connect. These words can have different meaning in both context, sentence structure, phrase meaning, etc. I would include all of the various translations and definitions of the words used. Not just one. It would show I acknowledge there are multiple definitions and translations of the verse. It would also be a starting point for analysis of the other definitions. I would also consult a linguist, not just someone that knows Classical Arabic. A person who is trained in understand both languages, the phonetics, semantics, pragmatics, grammar,  morphology, syntax, phonology, etc. A dictionary only will get one so far. This has happened to me in my own work.

    Show that you acknowledge other's work, challenge their work, doing something in the way of proving them wrong or point out errors. You have to do a lot more than pick one definition and roll with it.

    Now I know more about the Bible and Christian literature than the Quran and Islamic literature. I am just starting Islamic studies, which is more about history than religion, so forgive me if I use an example I am more familiar with. In Classical/Antiquity Greek Bibles the word used to describe a group of Christians was ἐκκλησία/ekklésia. However ekklésia itself mean assembly of people, not just Christians. The word applied to the government of Athens which was an assembly. So in different contexts ἐκκλησία/ekklésia means something a bit different. When it came to translation of ἐκκλησία/ekklésia to English the word congregation was used. This word has an even greater emphasis on the type and manner of the assembly. Other translations also use the word Church, which can be a reference to a building, site or even the followers. ἐκκλησία/ekklésia has changed, adapted, definitions have increased, application is different, context is different. All these factors influence a translation of one word into whichever context it is applied to.

    Granted the above example is short, I didnt want to go into a whole explanation of an otherwise off-topic word. It was just an example to show how we treat words in translation. We often insert words with greater meaning than the original word implies. We apply the context of a verse to the word itself for a greater emphasis. We also simplify language for the reader's sake. Classical Greek, just like Classical Arabic, is an academic language these days. It is not often used in everyday use. Both languages have evolved in Modern Arabic and Modern Greek. One needs to differentiate between the foundation language and the in use language. We also add definitions to words as my example with ἐκκλησία/ekklésia, definition which were not present at the time of the words use in context of time and place.

  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #78 - December 04, 2013, 02:32 AM

    Quote
    Go over your work again. Notice the highlighted and underlined expand with the complete lack of the same for other words. The word has other meanings which you ignore. You didn't say otherwise as you only pick expand as the meaning nor did you even remotely suggest all the definitions apply.


    I plan to in the future

    Quote
    http://www.almaany.com/home.php?language=arabic&lang_name=%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A&word=%D8%A3%D9%88%D8%B3%D8%B9&ModPagespeed=noscript. I have searched dictionaries for many of the words you have used. However I do not net the same meaning as you. أوسع for example is wider not expand. Wide(r) or broad(er) does not carry the same meaning as expand(ing). Go over your work again as you omit meaning. If you really intended to show all meanings you would have but you did not. You picked one meaning and went with it. You could of done a better job with the other definitions.


    I will add it to my article god willing and quote more dictionaries where it means expand, widen, enlarging etc

    Quote
    There are a few different methods of translations. One can do the piecemeal job of word by word which results in a translation that is just a jumble of words that may or may not provide the meaning of the verse in the original Classical Arabic. You can do a phrase translation in which you take the verse itself and translate the whole meaning. Certain words are dropped in the translation in order to maintain the same phrase meaning. One could also do a meaning for meaning translation. This method includes the context of preceding and seceding verses. Also include not just tafsir usage of the word in the text itself in other contexts. Also include the definition of the Arabic and English words you are trying to link/connect. These words can have different meaning in both context, sentence structure, phrase meaning, etc. I would include all of the various translations and definitions of the words used. Not just one. It would show I acknowledge there are multiple definitions and translations of the verse. It would also be a starting point for analysis of the other definitions. I would also consult a linguist, not just someone that knows Classical Arabic. A person who is trained in understand both languages, the phonetics, semantics, pragmatics, grammar,  morphology, syntax, phonology, etc. A dictionary only will get one so far. This has happened to me in my own work.


    Thankyou for the advice will do in the future.  Afro

    Quote
    Show that you acknowledge other's work, challenge their work, doing something in the way of proving them wrong or point out errors. You have to do a lot more than pick one definition and roll with it.

    Now I know more about the Bible and Christian literature than the Quran and Islamic literature. I am just starting Islamic studies, which is more about history than religion, so forgive me if I use an example I am more familiar with. In Classical/Antiquity Greek Bibles the word used to describe a group of Christians was ἐκκλησία/ekklésia. However ekklésia itself mean assembly of people, not just Christians. The word applied to the government of Athens which was an assembly. So in different contexts ἐκκλησία/ekklésia means something a bit different. When it came to translation of ἐκκλησία/ekklésia to English the word congregation was used. This word has an even greater emphasis on the type and manner of the assembly. Other translations also use the word Church, which can be a reference to a building, site or even the followers. ἐκκλησία/ekklésia has changed, adapted, definitions have increased, application is different, context is different. All these factors influence a translation of one word into whichever context it is applied to.

    Granted the above example is short, I didnt want to go into a whole explanation of an otherwise off-topic word. It was just an example to show how we treat words in translation. We often insert words with greater meaning than the original word implies. We apply the context of a verse to the word itself for a greater emphasis. We also simplify language for the reader's sake. Classical Greek, just like Classical Arabic, is an academic language these days. It is not often used in everyday use. Both languages have evolved in Modern Arabic and Modern Greek. One needs to differentiate between the foundation language and the in use language. We also add definitions to words as my example with ἐκκλησία/ekklésia, definition which were not present at the time of the words use in context of time and place.


    Thats interesting thankyou for the advice and examples.
  • Re: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #79 - December 04, 2013, 02:36 AM

    The word samaa' doesn't even mean "universe" and is therefore ambiguous and can mean whatever the reader wants it to mean. And even if it did mean "universe", to think that allmighty god is able to continously expand the sky (or universe, whatever) isn't something no mortal had ever thaught about before or something that was "unthinkable". Especially if Muhammad or whoever wrote the Quran wanted to highlight the greatness of allah. Allahu akbar yani. As had been already been said, it's kinda opportunistic to claim "scientific miracles" in hindsight so to say...

    Furthermore, even if we say that the verse really does means "expanding the universe" without any doubt and therefore is in line with what we today know is a fact about the universe, so what??? There are numerous other verses that goes against what we today know are scientific facts. I would accept this "scientific claim" as a legitimate argument for the divinine origin of the Quran, if it actually was flawless... which it isn't...



    My post isnt claiming a miracle or science in the Quran. I was simply detailing the meanings of the words adding to the discussion.

    I would be interested in hearing some if you could post them.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #80 - December 04, 2013, 02:38 AM

    xxx


    Hey yeezee. I will respond tommorrow its late. But i think your misunderstanding my post. I simply explained the meanings of the words. Im not claiming miracle or Quran matches science. Opening post wanted to know the arabic and where expanding came from. Ive simply explained that.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #81 - December 04, 2013, 09:33 AM

    My post isnt claiming a miracle or science in the Quran. I was simply detailing the meanings of the words adding to the discussion.


    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you have an agenda. I have seen your website, I have seen numerous posts made by you on other forums and I have seen the claims you have made on those sites. Your spelling errors give you away.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #82 - December 04, 2013, 10:53 AM

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you have an agenda. ....................

    Hello bogart.,  I am sure you agree that  having an agenda/goals in life is not a wrong thing.,   We all have some agendas and   ThatMuslimGuy  may have his own agenda. That is Ok., His agenda appears to be quite clear., In many of his responses he says "  But i think your misunderstanding my post. " He thinks many CEMB folks are unable to understand  his posts

    Clearly one of his agenda is to clear those  Misunderstandings from his posts.  I am really glad he is reading and writing in to  CEMB.,  Any ways I have other problems with CEMB.,  It appears some one deliberately removing CEMB links from Google search Engine ., CEMB forum disappeared from Google search I am not sure why.,    well those who remove CEMB from Google search they have their own agenda.

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #83 - December 04, 2013, 11:58 AM

    Hello bogart.,  I am sure you agree that  having an agenda/goals in life is not a wrong thing.,   We all have some agendas and   ThatMuslimGuy  may have his own agenda. That is Ok., His agenda appears to be quite clear., In many of his responses he says "  But i think your misunderstanding my post. " He thinks many CEMB folks are unable to understand  his posts

    Clearly one of his agenda is to clear those  Misunderstandings from his posts.  I am really glad he is reading and writing in to  CEMB.,  Any ways I have other problems with CEMB.,  It appears some one deliberately removing CEMB links from Google search Engine ., CEMB forum disappeared from Google search I am not sure why.,    well those who remove CEMB from Google search they have their own agenda.

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Yes everyone has an agenda in some respect be it major or minor. However not everyone hides this agenda or denies it. Most of the work he has cited is from work attempting to prove the verse is a miracle. See http://expanding-universe-quran.blogspot.ca/2013_07_01_archive.html All I am doing is pointing this out. Just as I pointed out errors in his methodology for his translations. Granted my comments on his methodology were more constructive than my last comment.

    Yes most of his comments here are about the use of language and translations. However these comments are merely part of his deductive methodology for the greater purpose which is on his blog. Nothing is wrong with this. Plenty of people do this from many approaches be it philosophy, archaeology, physics, etc. One should just be honest. In fact the work he has omitted here from his blog should have been included. It displays more of the methods he used, some of it is superior in quality than what he has posted here.

    Im having issues with CEMB on Google as well. I assumed it was due to the changes with the DNS. However it could be gremlins  Wink

    @ThatMuslimGuy

    I was reading your blog, I noticed a few errors in your use of English words. I will cite an example.

    Pickthall:
    [078:001]  Whereof do they question one another ?
    [078:002]  (It is) of the awful tidings,

    In this verse you are confusing awful with it's definition in modern English; bad, negative. The use of awful in this context means inspiring reverential wonder or fear, filled with awe, filled with or displaying great reverence. This is archaic English. It is the language you see in Old English; thee, thou. Shakespeare's work for example. Pickthall has done this throughout his whole translation. It was common to do this with the OT and NT. It adds a sense of poetic meaning and flow especially due to English translations losing all poetic meaning from Arabic. Pickthall's translation implies an even greater emphasis of how "great" this news is than other translations. Only Khan and Maulana translation even come close to this emphasis.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #84 - December 04, 2013, 03:40 PM

    Thatmuslimguy

    The plain meaning is extend, spread or stretch - and given that God is all-powerful he can extend, spread or stretch the earth and the heavens as much as he pleases; Sura 51 is a meditation/warning on the limitless power of God to damn those who fail to heed his messengers, and it would be better to pay attention if you don't want to go the same way. The metaphors in 47-48 are familiar from antecedent texts such as Job or Isaiah, and reflect the common inheritance of Mesopotamian cosmologies. All you're doing is abusively re-defining a word to conform to a modern cosmological understanding, but without really grasping what the implications are.

    The language of the Quran isn't hermetically sealed, it's also the common language of life and scholarship, and Quranic verses aren't isolated units of meaning that can be ripped from their broader context and the history of their continuing reception - you have to go and do the same exercise in all the islamic astronomical and philosophical texts as well, none of which, as far as I can tell, disclose any conception of a continuously expanding cosmos, as opposed to the fixed heavens that revolve around the earth. How do you account for this misunderstanding for the best part of 1400 years? And you have to account for it in such a way that avoids the trap that you're now in.
  • Re: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #85 - December 08, 2013, 08:24 PM

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you have an agenda. I have seen your website, I have seen numerous posts made by you on other forums and I have seen the claims you have made on those sites. Your spelling errors give you away.


    On other websites and blog yes i have an agenda. Here though i was simply adding to the discussion on the word Musioona. I didnt join this thread to start claiming quran miracles etc etc. I was simply explaining the word to the opening poster.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #86 - December 08, 2013, 08:27 PM


    @ThatMuslimGuy

    I was reading your blog, I noticed a few errors in your use of English words. I will cite an example.

    Pickthall:
    [078:001]  Whereof do they question one another ?
    [078:002]  (It is) of the awful tidings,

    In this verse you are confusing awful with it's definition in modern English; bad, negative. The use of awful in this context means inspiring reverential wonder or fear, filled with awe, filled with or displaying great reverence. This is archaic English. It is the language you see in Old English; thee, thou. Shakespeare's work for example. Pickthall has done this throughout his whole translation. It was common to do this with the OT and NT. It adds a sense of poetic meaning and flow especially due to English translations losing all poetic meaning from Arabic. Pickthall's translation implies an even greater emphasis of how "great" this news is than other translations. Only Khan and Maulana translation even come close to this emphasis.



    Thankyou. Thats interesting. Can you reference me to some archaic english where it means this. As after researching for some definitions all I can find is it to mean something bad.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #87 - December 08, 2013, 08:29 PM

    Thatmuslimguy

    The plain meaning is extend, spread or stretch


    The plain meaning of what? Musioona or 'Awsa or Wasi?

    Quote
    The language of the Quran isn't hermetically sealed, it's also the common language of life and scholarship, and Quranic verses aren't isolated units of meaning that can be ripped from their broader context and the history of their continuing reception - you have to go and do the same exercise in all the islamic astronomical and philosophical texts as well, none of which, as far as I can tell, disclose any conception of a continuously expanding cosmos, as opposed to the fixed heavens that revolve around the earth. How do you account for this misunderstanding for the best part of 1400 years? And you have to account for it in such a way that avoids the trap that you're now in.


    Misunderstand what. Ive provided just a handfull of Tafsirs that match with what im saying. Expanding.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #88 - December 08, 2013, 09:44 PM

    Thankyou. Thats interesting. Can you reference me to some archaic english where it means this. As after researching for some definitions all I can find is it to mean something bad.


    Any English dictionary will show my definitions. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/awful http://thesaurus.com/browse/awful http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/awful http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/awful

    Misunderstand what. Ive provided just a handfull of Tafsirs that match with what im saying. Expanding.


    Not all use the word expanding. Some use the word expanded. Some do not even use the word expanded or anything close to the meaning

    http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=91&tSoraNo=36&tAyahNo=14&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1
    http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=2&tTafsirNo=10&tSoraNo=1&tAyahNo=4&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1
    http://www.al-eman.com/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A8/%D8%AA%D9%81%D8%B3%D9%8A%D8%B1%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%85%D8%B1%D9%82%D9%86%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%8C%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%85%D9%89%20%C2%AB%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%B1%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%88%D9%85%C2%BB%20***/%D8%AA%D9%81%D8%B3%D9%8A%D8%B1%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A2%D9%8A%D8%A7%D8%AA%20%D8%B1%D9%82%D9%85%20(43-%2058)/i367&d301155&c&p1 (copy/paste link didnt work)

    The rest of the "quoted" Tafsir I can not find at all. Without proper reference I can neither confirm nor deny. The work is incomplete therefore I can dismiss it as such. Unfortunately most of the work is copy/pasted all over the net. I can not even confirm this is your work. Many of the verses switch between heaven or sky. You can not change a translation to fit your meaning. If a verse is talking about sky it is about the sky not universe. Like-wise with Heaven. If you do this then you begin to distort the intending meaning in context to fit your context.

    I found more of these copy/pasted work as results than anything creditable. Some of the words you use are either misspelled or simply do not have the same meaning you imply. Again you need to clean up your work, provide proper references in English, as this is the language you are using, so English speakers such as myself can research your findings.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #89 - December 08, 2013, 09:50 PM

    The plain meaning of what? Musioona or 'Awsa or Wasi?

    Misunderstand what. Ive provided just a handfull of Tafsirs that match with what im saying. Expanding.



    josephus is pointing out regardless of what your translation say there is a history of Islamic astronomy which is geocentric and fixed earth. This suggests that you verse was not applied or view in the manner which you support. In fact for centuries views contradict your own. You have to account for this other than post hoc rationalizations and dismissing centuries of astronomy.
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