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 Topic: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations

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  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     OP - July 09, 2011, 10:59 PM

    English Translations of Verse 51:47 prior or around the time of Edwin Hubble's discovery in the 1930's of an expanding universe:

    "...With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.... " (Surah 51:47). Yusufali
    "...We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).... " (Surah 51:47). Pickthal
    "...And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.... " (Surah 51:47). Shakir

    Late twentieth century translations of the same verse, after Hubble's discovery was established science:

    Shabbir Ahmed:
    "And it is We Who have built the Universe, and behold, We are steadily expanding it."

    Dr. Munir Munshey:
    "With Our power and prowess, We brought into being the universe. And indeed, We expand it (steadily)!"

    Progressive Muslims:
    "And We constructed the universe using matter, and We will expand it."

    Muhammad Asad:
    "And it is We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."

    Arberry:
    "And heaven -- We built it with might, and We extend it wide."

    Sarwar:
    "We have made the heavens with Our own hands and We expanded it."

    Khalifah:
    "We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it."

    Hilali/Khan:
    "With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof."

    Umm Muhammad (Sahih International):
    "And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are it's expander."

    Muhammad Ahmed & Samira:
    "And the sky/space We built/constructed it with power/support, and We are extending/spreading."

    Qaribullah:
    "We built the heaven with might, and We widely extended it."

    Ali Quli Qara'i:
    "We have built the sky with might, and indeed it is We who are its expanders."

    Ali Unal:
    "And the heaven, We have constructed it mightily, and it is surely We Who have vast power, and keep expanding it."

    Bijan Moeinian:
    "I (God) have created the universe myself and will continue to expand it."

    Hamid S. Aziz:
    "And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and it is We that expand the vastness of space (or We are the expanders of it)."

    Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali:
    "And the heaven (is also a sign). We have built it with (Our) Hands (i.e., Capability) and surely We are indeed extending (it) wide."

    Muhammad Taqi Usmani:
    "And the sky was built by Us with might; and indeed We are the expanders."

    Tahir al-Qadri:
    "And We built the heavenly universe with great might. And surely We are expanding (this universe) more and more."

    T. B. Irving:
    "The sky We have built firmly and We are extending it."

    Al-Muntakhab:
    "And the heaven with its regions, spheres and realms of space did We skillfully, powerfully and authoritatively construct and We are expanding the universe."

    Can any muslims explain this change in translation of the Arabic word "Musi'un" from vastness to expanding/widening only in modern day translations of the late twentieth century, after Hubbles discovery? It seems that modern English translations of the Quran are trying to fit in with established science.

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Re: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #1 - July 09, 2011, 11:20 PM

    In fact all translators of the Quran nowadays are 'turners and fitters' in the guise of scholars. Cheesy Cheesy
    If you believe beating your wife with a miswak makes sense then you will believe anything!
    In their strange world virgins become grapes[hot off the press!] and donkeys become your transport[if you want to imitate Insan-e-Kamil!] to heaven to enjoy those 'grapes' and many other bizarre interpretations that challenge your sanity!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #2 - July 10, 2011, 12:06 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyqkAFCaNQM
  • Re: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #3 - July 10, 2011, 08:23 PM

    Mighty Cats- Nice Video which I haven't seen before- Thanks.
    Of All the things I could possibly talk about or reveal to show that islam in not all that it seems, this expanding universe point really seems to shut muslims up or at least get them thinking. I love to sow the seeds of doubt in small minds.    Grin

    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Re: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #4 - July 10, 2011, 09:21 PM

    IMPORTANT QUESTION

    Let's assume for a second the Ijaazi people are right. Then what? Would this be a new idea or were such notions expressed before Muhammad? Could someone do some research into this?

    Anyway, this is from an earlier post I wrote:

    "And the heaven We built with Our own powers (aydin) and indeed We go on expanding it - 51:47"

    Wala habibi! Let's look at the Arabic verse in question.

    وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ

    Now, the key word in question is موسعون (moosi3oon). That is the ism al-faa3il (the "doer") of "أوسع" "awsa3a". Now "awsa3a" is the "af3ala" verb of the root. "af3ala" verbs in Arabic morphology refer to *making* the object perform the verb (Check Paradigm إفعال here: http://www.learnarabiconline.com/paradigm-connotations.shtml).

    So "awsa3a" means "ja3ala waasi3an", "to make sth. waasi3". Without doing all this morphology stuff you can get to that just by checking the entry for "awsa3a" in Al Mu3jam al Mu7ee6 (which you can do online if you wish). Now, what does "waasi3" mean? It simply means "wide" or "big". (Again, check Al Mu7ee6 if you don't believe me. Though this is a fairly commonly used adjective in Arabic. You might've already learned it.)

    So, what is the verse actually saying?

    "And the heaven, we have built it with hands (literal meaning) and we are those who make (it) big."

    The more intensive verb "wassa3a" (from fa33ala) would have meant to make something expand.

    "The تفعيل paradigm is also commonly used for expressing intensity. For example, the simple verb قطع means “to cut”, whereas the enhanced form قطّع means “to chop up”."

    That's from the site I gave you about Arabic morphology.

    Pickthall translated it best when he wrote:

    We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).

    Anyway, what's odd about the verse is that there's no object for "moosi3oon" (it should have said something like "laha lamoosi3oon". Of course, this could mean that the object has simply been omitted but the word still refers to "as-samaa2" (heaven) (something you can do in Arabic poetry). But it could also mean, as the Tafsir al Jalalayn exegesis states:

    { وإنا لموسعون } قادرون يقال: أد الرجل يئيد قوي، وأوسع الرجل: صار ذا سعة وقوة .

    that "moosi3oon" is an adjective that means "capable".

    What this shows is how flexible the Arabic language is and how a single word could mean many, many different things. But it also shows how ambiguous the Quran is (and coming from God, the last thing you want is ambiguity), and that the verse as understood by Islamic scholars before the whole "scientific miracles" craze in the 70s or so did not refer to "expansion". In Arabic, "moosi3" is a person who makes something big, and not a person who keeps on making something big (expanding it, MUWASSI3).

    tl;dr version: No miracle here. Don't take translations at face value and always consult an Arabic dictionary.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #5 - July 11, 2011, 07:07 PM

    Wow awesome translation Cheesy

    Christianity(God), Islam(Allah), Judaism(Yahweh) = Wrinkly bags of Fuzzy Bollocks, Designed by Deceivers, Followed by Fuckwits.
  • Re: Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #6 - July 11, 2011, 07:53 PM

    Very impressive analysis of Arabic morphology Harakat & totally agree with you. The fact that late twentieth century translations all had the word or implied continued expansion indicates a desire to alter the meaning to conform with modern science which is actually deception. The Quran is a great work of deception & it has fooled millions over the centuries.

    What this shows is how flexible the Arabic language is and how a single word could mean many, many different things. But it also shows how ambiguous the Quran is (and coming from God, the last thing you want is ambiguity), and that the verse as understood by Islamic scholars before the whole "scientific miracles" craze in the 70s or so did not refer to "expansion". In Arabic, "moosi3" is a person who makes something big, and not a person who keeps on making something big (expanding it, MUWASSI3).


    When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood by its nature is bound to perish.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #7 - September 19, 2013, 03:27 PM

    pretty much same as this isn't it?

    "He's the one who stretches out the heavens like a curtain"

    http://biblehub.com/isaiah/40-22.htm
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #8 - September 20, 2013, 02:33 AM

     Roll Eyes

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #9 - December 01, 2013, 01:37 AM

    How many people on this thread who posted actually know arabic?
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #10 - December 01, 2013, 02:11 AM


    How many Muslims actually know Arabic is the more pertinent question.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #11 - December 01, 2013, 02:51 AM

    How many people on this thread who posted actually know arabic?


    Harakaat thoroughly and definitely, may his body rest in peace and his memory live on.

    FreeThought Wiki is looking for translators!

    Current projects: Faraj Foda's "al-Haqiqa al Ghaib" (Arabic) and Turan Dursun's "Din Bu I" (Turkish)
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #12 - December 01, 2013, 03:33 AM

    How many Muslims actually know Arabic is the more pertinent question.


    Very true.

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #13 - December 01, 2013, 03:33 AM

    He is not alive anymore? :(
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #14 - December 01, 2013, 03:38 AM

    pretty much same as this isn't it?

    "He's the one who stretches out the heavens like a curtain"

    http://biblehub.com/isaiah/40-22.htm


    No. It's not the same. This verse actually talks about "stretching" which is more closely related to the nature of expansion. Bible : 1. Qur'aan : 0. What is a curtain made of? Fabric. What is space-time referred to as? A fabric. Bible : 2. Qur'aan : 0.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #15 - December 01, 2013, 03:57 PM

    How many people on this thread who posted actually know arabic?


    happymurtad is fluent, and Toona was raised in Saudi so probably him as well. Most of the fluent ones don't post that much.

    Better question: how many people can read the translations?.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #16 - December 01, 2013, 09:27 PM

    I ask because this whole thread bemused me.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #17 - December 01, 2013, 09:54 PM

    Can you argue your case regarding your contentions, instead of just pulling out the old you-don't-know-Arabic card?

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #18 - December 02, 2013, 08:28 PM

    Ok i will if your interested.

    The Quran says in Surah Adh-Dhariyat Verse 47:

    وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ


    Waalssamaa banaynaha bi-aydin wa-inna lamoosiAAoona

    والسماء (wal-samāa) means - And the heaven
    Source: http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%2851:47:1%29

    بنيناها (banaynāhā) means - We constructed/built it
    Source: http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%2851:47:2%29

    بايد (bi-aydin) means – Literally with hands. However correct translation is with strength/power.
    Source: http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%2851:47:3%29

    وانا (wa-innā) means - and indeed, We
    Source: http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%2851:47:4%29

    So far the verse in question would translate to as the following:

    And the heaven We constructed/built it with strength/power and indeed, We lamūsi’ūna

    لموسعون (lamūsi’ūna) What does it mean?

    لموسعون (lamūsi’ūna) contains the emphatic prefix lām. The prefixed particle lām is usually translated as "surely" or "indeed" and is used to add emphasis. So the word in question really is موسعون (mūsi’ūna).

    Now the “ūna” or “oona” in the Arabic language represents a plural. The plural aspect is to denote the majesty and power of god. So the plurality is not in question. What is in question is the word موسع (mūsi)

    موسع (mūsi). So what does this mean? Well موسع (mūsi) is one who is engaged in the act of أوسع (Awsa'). So what does أوسع(Awsa') mean?

    The classical dictionary Lisan Al-Arab (13th century) says the following:




    In the explanation of the word it is interesting to note that the author actually quotes the verse in question in his explanation. In the section highlighted the author states that the form 2 verb (Red Line) has the same meaning as the verb used in the verse (Blue Line)- to expand something.

    In short the author states that the verb وسع (to expand something) has the same meaning as the verb أوسع.

    According to Al-Mawrid Arabic-English Dictionary p.1223  وسع means expand.

    This can be simply verified by using Google translator:







    (7th Meaning)

    So from Lisan Al-Arab we have come to learn that the verb أوسع (Awsa') means to expand. And موسع (mūsi) is the one who is engaged in أوسع (Awsa') – The Expander. The one who engages in expanding.

    موسع (mūsi) is an active participle rather than a verb. So what does this mean? The active participle indicates either a state or one who engages in an act continuously. Now a verb is an action that has a beginning and an end. Whereas an active participle is an act that is done continuously.

    So it is clear from classical Arabic that موسع (mūsi) can be translated two ways:

    1. Expander- One who causes continual expansion.
    2. Expanding.

    Does Tafsir and Opinions of Classical Scholars support this understanding?

    Tafsir Al-Zamakhshari (Died in the 11 Century A.D)



    In the commentary of this verse the Scholar gives the following three meanings for the wordموسعون (mūsi’ūna):

    The Encomposer of the Heavens (Physical and Knowledge)
    The Provider (from the Heavens)
    The Expander

    Tafsir Muqatel ibn Solaiman (767 A.D)

    means: we are able to expand it as we want.

     تفسير مقاتل بن سليمان/ مقاتل بن سليمان (ت 150 هـ
    { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } [آية: 47] يعني نحن قادرون على أن نوسعها كما نريد

    Tafsir Al Tabarani (970 A.D)

    means :we expand the heaven in every direction.

     تفسير التفسير الكبير / للإمام الطبراني (ت 360 ـ)

     { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ }؛ في السَّماء على الأرضِ في كلِّ جهاتٍ

    Tafsir Bahr Alolum (985 A.D)

    means: we are able to expand it as we will.

    (فسير بحر العلوم/ السمرقندي

    { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } يعني نحن قادرون على أن نوسعها كما نريد

    Tafsir Alnukat Waloyon (1058 A.D)

    means : we are able to make the heaven expanding more that it is already expanded.

     تفسير النكت والعيون/ الماوردي (ت 450 ه)الثاني: لموسعون السماء، قاله ابن زيد.الثالث: لقادرون على الاتساع بأكثر من اتساع السماء.

    Tafsir Al-Baidawi (Died 1286)

    وَٱلسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَـٰهَا بِأَيْدٍ, بقوة. { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لقادرون من الوسع بمعنى الطاقة والموسع القادر على الإنفاق. أو { لَمُوسِعُونَ } السماء أو ما بينها وبين الأرض أو الرزق

    The translation of the part highlighted in blue reads,

    "{lamūsi’ūna } means (expanding) the heavens or what is between it and the earth or the (expanding of) sustenance."

    Tafsir alfayruz abadi (1414 A.D)

    means : we are expanding it as we will.

    { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لها ما نشاء

     تفسير القرآن/ الفيروز آبادي (ت817

    Tafsir Alqasemy (1913 A.D)

    means: we are able to expand it, more than it is already expanded.
     تفسير محاسن التأويل / محمد جمال الدين القاسمي (ت 1332هـ
     { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } أي: لقادرون على الإيساع، كما أوسعنا بناءها

    And many more.

    Part of the miraculous nature of the Quran is that uses word(s) that have more than one meaning and all these meanings are intended. So in conclusion after looking at classical commentaries three meanings are given for the word موسعون (mūsi’ūna):

    1. To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
    2. To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
    3. To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster.

    Now as explained earlier these acts are represented by a noun (active participle) and not a verb. So these acts are encompassing, providing sustenance and expanding are not conformed to a particular time. They are on going. As a noun (active participle) indicates:

    A perpetual state

    Or

    One who engages in act continually.

    After looking at classical commentaries and classical Arabic dictionaries the word موسعون(mūsi’ūna) can be translated into English two ways:

    Expander

    This would translate the verse as following:

    And the heaven We built it with strength and indeed, We are [its] expander.

    This means that god is the one who is expanding the universe continually. This is the clear and literal meaning of the Arabic and is highly supported by classical Tafsirs. It is how Quranic Arabic Corpus have translated the word لموسعون (lamūsi’ūna):

     - (are) surely (its) Expanders.

    [Source]

    It is further supported by the following translations of the Qur’an:

    And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander. [Saheeh International]

    And the sky was built by Us with might; and indeed We are the expanders. [Muhammad Taqi Usmani]

    We have built the sky with might, and indeed it is We who are its expanders. [Ali Quli Qara'i]

    And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and it is We that expand the vastness of space (or We are the expanders of it). [Hamid S. Aziz]

    Expanding

    This would translate the verse as following:

    And the heaven We built it with strength and indeed, We are expanding it.

    The translation of expanding comes from the fact that the word is an active participle meaning one is continually doing the action. Is this case continually expanding. This translation is clearly supported by the Arabic and supported by classical Tafsirs.

    Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips - who studied at the Islamic University of  Madeenah University and King Saud University and studied B.A. Islamic Studies ,M.A. Aqeedah, & PhD Islamic Theology - in his book Usool At-Tafseer, page 71, talks about  موسعون (mūsi’ūna) and how it means expanding and is an active participle.

    “The heaven I created by might, and, verily, I am expanding it.

    The Arabic word moos’ioon is an active participle. It indicates an ongoing action that is occurring at the present time and will continue into the future. It was not until the invention of the spectrograph and the development of a huge (100 in. diameter) reflecting telecope that Edward Hubble was able to discover other galaxies in 1926 and to document in 1927 the red shift of their spectra that indicates they are moving away from ours…”
    [Source]

    Abul Ala Maududi in Tafhim al-Qur'an (The Meaning of the Quran) writes the following in the footnotes of Surah 51:47:

    “The word must' (pl. musi'un) may mean the one who possesses power and means, and also the one who can extend and expand something. According to the first meaning, the verse would mean: "We have built this heaven by Our own might and not with somebody else's help, and its erection was in no way beyond Us. Then how can you ever conceive that We shall not be able to recreate it ?" According to the second meaning, it would mean: "This huge universe that We have created, is not a finished work, but We are expanding it continuously, and new and ever new manifestations of Our creation are appearing in it every moment. How do you then think that such a marvelous Creator would not be able to repeat His creation.”

    It is further supported by the following translations of the Qur’an:

    AND IT IS We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. [Muhammad Asad]

    And the heaven with its regions, spheres and realms of space did We skillfully, powerfully and authoritatively construct and We are expanding the universe. [Al-Muntakhab]

    And We constructed the universe using matter, and We will expand it. [Progressive Muslims]

    And the heaven, We have constructed it mightily, and it is surely We Who have vast power, and keep expanding it. [Ali Ünal]

    And it is We Who have built the Universe, and behold, We are steadily expanding it. [Shabbir Ahmed]

    With Our power and prowess, We brought into being the universe. And indeed, We expand it (steadily)! [Dr. Munir Munshey]

    And We built the heavenly universe with great might. And surely, We are expanding (this universe) more and more. [Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri]

    And the heaven: We constructed it with (Our Own) hands; and surely We are indeed those Who make expansion and create vastness. [Dr. Kamal Omar]

    We constructed the universe with power, and We are expanding it. [Talal A. Itani]

    I (God) have created the universe myself and will continue to expand it [confirmation of the expansion theory of the universe after the Big Bang.] [Bijan Moeinian]

    We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it. [Rashad Khalifa]

    f you are still unsure about the meaning of موسعون  (mūsi’ūna) and would like further information I recommend watching the following video which provides a summary of all the points I have mentioned :

    Part 1:
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=relmfu&v=XRd3loZFsxM
    Part 2:
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_Y-U6YeceH0

    Summary

    In summary the Arabic word   موسعون (mūsi’ūna)  after exploring Classical Dictionaries and Classical Commentary's means “The Expander” or “Expanding”. It is an active participle which means that the action is continuous meaning the expansion is continuous.

    And the heaven We constructed/built it with strength/power and indeed, We are surely expanding it. [Quran 51:47]
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #19 - December 02, 2013, 08:30 PM

    Alhamdullilah, after contorting ourselves through grammatical and linguistic loops we can sort of kind of show how we can avoid the obvious man made and ignorant nature of the claims made in the Quran

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #20 - December 02, 2013, 08:59 PM

    Linguistic loops? I simply detailed the meaning of the word.  Huh?

    musi being one who does awsa. Awsa meaning expand. The expander....
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #21 - December 02, 2013, 09:07 PM

    Linguistic loops? I simply detailed the meaning of the word.  Huh?


     Cheesy Cheesy

    ThatMuslimGuy   greetings my good wishes to you... Don't worry about billy.,  Allah says billy is a bad guy.    billy doesn't understand what you write..

    please continue to read/write in to CEMB and educate folks about Islam/Quran/hadith...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #22 - December 02, 2013, 09:16 PM

    why cant you formulate the argument yourself? How do we know you have even read your own copy paste?
    You need to put a bit of effort in too
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #23 - December 02, 2013, 09:28 PM

    Its taken from my blog if your interested:

    http://expanding-universe-quran.blogspot.no/2013/07/expansion-of-universe-in-quran-fact-or.html

    I did put effort in exploring the issue.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #24 - December 02, 2013, 09:30 PM

    in that case, your argument conflates the difference between continuing to perform an action, and continuing to be the one who performs the action. 'Be' is a verb, and that is the verb that continues to be. You have confused the object of the sentence, with the subject.

    You even said it yourself. "The active participle indicates one who engages", as opposed the action being engaged in.

    Allah can continue to be in the state of 'creator of universe' without currently still creating the universe, and he can still be [present continuous] the guy who spread the (7) heavens without still doing it now.

    Furthermore, even if your linguistic gymnastics actually have some merit, you are still only left with a miracle that one out of three monkeys could guess correctly. The universe is either getting bigger, getting smaller, or staying the same size. One out of three chance is not a miracle, and in reality its not even as impressive as that.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #25 - December 02, 2013, 09:31 PM

    The universe is not expanding, it is in fact retracting.

    I am from the future, and future scientists have made this incredible discovery.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #26 - December 02, 2013, 09:34 PM

    ;;;


    I explained in my post what the active participle means.

    موسع (mūsi) is an active participle rather than a verb. So what does this mean? The active participle indicates either a state or one who engages in an act continuously. Now a verb is an action that has a beginning and an end. Whereas an active participle is an act that is done continuously.

    The translation of expanding comes from the fact that the word is an active participle meaning one is continually doing the action. Is this case continually expanding.

    For example Allah says:

    ( إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَفِظُونَ)
    Surely We have sent the Reminder [Quran] and surely We are it’s Preserver. [Hafidhoon](Al Hijr 15:9)
     
    This is an implication of Continuous Preservation. The same way Allah is Continuously guarding the Quran [Hafidhuwn] until the Final Hour of this world, it is possible that He is continuously expanding the Universe [muWsi'uwn].

    And your correct. The possibilities of guessing are 3. Contracting, Static, Expanding. A 1/3 chance of guessing.

    Edit: Thanks for the post maybe i should rewrite that bit.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #27 - December 02, 2013, 09:37 PM

    The universe is not expanding, it is in fact retracting.

    I am from the future, and future scientists have made this incredible discovery.


    Got anything usefull to add to the discussion?
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #28 - December 02, 2013, 09:39 PM

    By your logic, the very next verse must be translated as Allah is still continuously spreading the earth.
    I see your 1/3 chance of guessing scientific miracle, and I raise it by one scientific blunder.
  • Quran- Verse 51:47 Expanding Universe & Expanding Interpretations/Translations
     Reply #29 - December 02, 2013, 09:41 PM

    So I take it that you accept that the Quran says the universe is expanding then.  Wink
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