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 Topic: Pedophilia and current rationalizations

 (Read 26116 times)
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  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #60 - July 04, 2011, 02:21 AM

    Quote
    If they're married, yes


    So you think its okay for an old man to have sex with a girl of 8 or 9 if he has a marriage cert?  Seriously?


    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #61 - July 04, 2011, 02:24 AM

    Quote
    There is no age of consent in Saudi because there's no age of consent in the Quran.


    So, if I am a pious muslim man, and also a paedophile, is there anything to stop me molesting a girl of 1,2,3, etc, as long as I get a marriage cert first?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #62 - July 04, 2011, 02:30 AM

    So you think its okay for an old man to have sex with a girl of 8 or 9 if he has a marriage cert?  Seriously?


    WTF?! You asked:

    So, if a girl reaches puberty at the age of 8 or 9 in an Islamic country, is it okay for an old man to have sex with her?


    NOTE: You did NOT ask me if its okay, you asked if its okay in an Islamic country and I answered. I suggest you get some sleep woman.

    So, if I am a pious muslim man, and also a paedophile, is there anything to stop me molesting a girl of 1,2,3, etc, as long as I get a marriage cert first?


    Nope. As long as the nikah (Islamic marriage) is done you're fine.  But I think its impossible to get married to a girl of that age if you take hadith like the one below into consideration:

    "A woman without a husband (or divorced or a widow) must not be married until she is consulted, and a virgin must not be married until her permission is sought. They asked the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him): How her (virgin's) consent can be solicited? He (the Holy Prophet) said: That she keeps silence.  (Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage Book 008, Number 3303)"
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #63 - July 04, 2011, 02:34 AM

    A little digging indicates that most researchers make a distinction between a child molester and a paedophile. So I guess the former might be fitting.

    I'm not really that bothered about the distinction. We're still talking about habitual child rape over a long period.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #64 - July 04, 2011, 02:38 AM

    I think that's about the most useful thing anyone's said in the whole thread. grin12
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #65 - July 04, 2011, 02:44 AM

    I think that's about the most useful thing anyone's said in the whole thread. grin12


    Ikh, ya facacta kids and your semantics. When'll ya learn!
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #66 - July 04, 2011, 08:43 AM

    There's a difference between a baby and a little girl. WikiIslam  Roll Eyes

    There are many hadith that can prove or imply that she was older.


    Ok, rather than simply rolling your eyes at the source, REFUTE the source.  That makes more sense you know.

    I don't care about the source as long as the info is verifiable, so what is not verifiable there?

    Also, it is as you said, the hadiths you say that speak of her being older, can only offer another view to the truth, not the truth itself.

    If it was common back then than it would make total sense that she was 9, but if it was not common then, it would make total sense that she wasn't, but the argument that it was common is always used, why if not for the fact that it is a defnese against the age?

    Anyway, the wikilink works for me, if you have a source that is better and refutes that one then post it.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #67 - July 04, 2011, 09:06 AM

    WTF?! You asked:

    NOTE: You did NOT ask me if its okay, you asked if its okay in an Islamic country and I answered. I suggest you get some sleep woman.

    Nope. As long as the nikah (Islamic marriage) is done you're fine.  But I think its impossible to get married to a girl of that age if you take hadith like the one below into consideration:

    "A woman without a husband (or divorced or a widow) must not be married until she is consulted, and a virgin must not be married until her permission is sought. They asked the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him): How her (virgin's) consent can be solicited? He (the Holy Prophet) said: That she keeps silence.  (Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage Book 008, Number 3303)"


    Fine, I've had some sleep.  So now tell me please, in light of the hadith you posted, how is it "impossible" to marry a baby?  Your own proof states clearly that a virgin's consent is solicited by this - " That she keeps silence. " 

    A baby of 1,2 or 3 is perfectly capable of keeping silence. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #68 - July 04, 2011, 09:25 AM

    {Edit} Forgot to talk about your question! Basically, the point of questioning the morality of that time is to refute the claim that "X religion is the best and true because it's got the best absolute morals, it's for all human beings in all time periods."


    Erm..  I'd assumed that this discussion was taking place between people who refuse to take the idea of unchanging, 'perfect' systems of morality seriously. As you suggest, the claim is easy to refute..

    Quote from: kleine Bruder
    Your question however asks a philosophical question which I can't help but think of as mental masturbation  Cheesy
    I'm no philosopher nor do I pretend to be. I hope my answers will be satisfactory, although I don't think they will.


    If my efforts are mental masturbation, are you now providing me with mental lubricant? I think we should be told Cheesy
    Thank you for answering, though.

    Would you be able to have sex with a nine year old? 


    Well, obviously not. But then, it strikes me that I have a couple of decades' worth of deeply absorbed conditioning to that effect, that are very much of this era. Had I grown up in an era in which sexual taboos were very different, who's to say what my answer would be? There have been multiple attempts to correlate sexual behaviour to neurological symptoms, but whether this necessarily means that there is an objective basis for a 'normal' set of sexual preferences for all times is far from certain.

    Aphrodite, Prince Spinoza, Toor and all other apologists


    Pointing out that the consensus view on what sex is considered 'acceptable' has never been static across cultures over time is not an apology; it is a statement of fact. Our moral sensibilities are indeed very different to those of his era, but nowhere am I arguing for Mo to be let off the hook. I'm just pointing to our very different moral context, and that we should be wary of viewing history in terms resembling those of morality tales. Anyone who looks at Mo's biography as a shining example to humanity makes this error.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #69 - July 04, 2011, 09:33 AM

    Quote
    Pointing out that the consensus view on what sex is considered 'acceptable' has never been static across cultures over time is not an apology; it is a statement of fact.


    Yes, but its not a fact that anybody here has denied.  You're just erecting a straw man with this, nobody is saying that past cultures should be judged by today's standards, we are just using modern day plain english to describe history.  To ask us to do anything else is completely absurd.  What other language are we supposed to use?

    Quote
    Anyone who looks at Mo's biography as a shining example to humanity makes this error.


    And anyone who tells non muslims or ex-muslims this is wasting their breath.  We already know, so go tell the billion or so people who follow Islam that they are in error.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #70 - July 04, 2011, 09:44 AM

    You're just erecting a straw man with this, nobody is saying that past cultures should be judged by today's standards, we are just using modern day plain english to describe history.  To ask us to do anything else is completely absurd.  What other language are we supposed to use?


    I don't recall asking anyone not to use 'modern day plain english'. My concern is that the tale is told irrefutably, and the 'Mo is a paedo' angle sounds dangerously like a platitude these days. To whit:

    (..) that we should be wary of viewing history in terms resembling those of morality tales.

  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #71 - July 04, 2011, 02:09 PM

    I don't recall asking anyone not to use 'modern day plain english'. My concern is that the tale is told irrefutably, and the 'Mo is a paedo' angle sounds dangerously like a platitude these days. To whit:



    I don't think anyone is here to argue that people can't be the product of their environment, that they must have absolute morality on their own. In fact, that's the point we're trying to refute! Mo had a worse morality compared to today, but he was the prophet of all time for all people, hence he must have had an absolute morality. The fact that he didn't is a contradiction.

    As for viewing history through a moral lens: it's not something I personally condone for the obvious reasons you have stated. However, Mo's story IS unique because of the claims it makes given the facts, hence it is an exception that we ought to be looking at him with moral scrutiny.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #72 - July 04, 2011, 02:52 PM

    We're mostly in agreement here, I think; we both reject any claim that Mo is any sort of exemplar, and we further agree that any claims to his possession of any exalted moral status are undoubtedly lies. I don't think that we should let his biography pass without scrutiny, either; however, it strikes me that moral judgements on his character are to some extent a weak form of criticism, in much the same way that testifying to Mo's blessedness of character is a weak form of justification for his actions. I don't doubt that fighting fire with fire - i.e. asserting a moral stance to show up the alleged source of Islamic morality as a charlatan - can be helpful, but I find myself wondering if it doesn't go far enough.

    This is where we may disagree; my position is that eternal moral truths strike me as something of a contradiction in terms. It is this principle that leads me to reject the claim that Mo's example is worth emulating, much less worth venerating. To my mind, that is enough; making moral judgements sub specie aeterni makes me uncomfortable.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #73 - July 04, 2011, 02:59 PM

    We're mostly in agreement here, I think; we both reject any claim that Mo is any sort of exemplar, and we further agree that any claims to his possession of any exalted moral status are undoubtedly lies. I don't think that we should let his biography pass without scrutiny, either; however, it strikes me that moral judgements on his character are to some extent a weak form of criticism, in much the same way that testifying to Mo's character is a weak form of justification for his actions. I don't doubt that fighting fire with fire - i.e. asserting a moral stance to show up the alleged source of Islamic morality as a charlatan - can be helpful, but I find myself wondering if it doesn't go far enough.

    This is where we may disagree; my position is that eternal moral truths strike me as something of a contradiction in terms. It is this principle that leads me to reject the claim that Mo's example is worth emulating, much less worth venerating. To my mind, that is enough; making moral judgements sub specie aeterni makes me uncomfortable.



    Aah, we now fully understand each other. Let me rephrase to make sure I get this right. There can be no such thing as an eternal moral truth as morality is not necessarily black and white. Mo gave a black and white, yet stagnant moral framework to be entrusted and upheld for eternity. That is where you draw the line in terms of a contradiction and refuse Mo. I'm glad I understand  Smiley

    As for fighting fire with fire: I think it's a great way to go about it. You have to understand, many people say that Mo was perfect, so when you shove in their face something that they personally find morally repugnant, yet their moral champion has jovially taken part in, you sow the seeds of doubt and reason. I know it's not the best approach to someone who already thinks about these things, but take my friend as an example. All he could come up with was "Umm, those were the times?", so perhaps this debate has given him something to think about or chew on, or perhaps he'll just pretend we never talked about any such thing. I don't know, but at the very least, nothing will come of it. Hopefully, he'll think.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #74 - July 04, 2011, 03:16 PM

    Aah, we now fully understand each other. Let me rephrase to make sure I get this right. There can be no such thing as an eternal moral truth as morality is not necessarily black and white. Mo gave a black and white, yet stagnant moral framework to be entrusted and upheld for eternity. That is where you draw the line in terms of a contradiction and refuse Mo. I'm glad I understand  Smiley

    Pretty much. I'd go a little further and say that it's not so much that morality is not always black and white, but that morality is a human invention, and reflects those things that motivate us. Our motivations (and thus, the principles we claim to or actually do hold dearest) are never entirely static, and certainly cannot be expected to remain so over the 1400+ years that one is obliged to overlook in a quest to be 'more Islamic'.

    Quote
    As for fighting fire with fire: I think it's a great way to go about it. You have to understand, many people say that Mo was perfect, so when you shove in their face something that they personally find morally repugnant, yet their moral champion has jovially taken part in, you sow the seeds of doubt and reason. I know it's not the best approach to someone who already thinks about these things, but take my friend as an example. All he could come up with was "Umm, those were the times?", so perhaps this debate has given him something to think about or chew on, or perhaps he'll just pretend we never talked about any such thing. I don't know, but at the very least, nothing will come of it. Hopefully, he'll think.

    For what it's worth, I've found it helpful, too. I can't seem to get past my incredulity that people can believe so strongly in the cult of Mo's personality. Even as a teenager, I found it odd that a man who allegedly worried so much about falling out of the Almighty's good books - and whom, we are told, was just a man, and thus as mortal as other men - should deserve such ridiculous levels of veneration, much less posthumous protection..
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #75 - July 04, 2011, 03:21 PM

    Pretty much. I'd go a little further and say that it's not so much that morality is not always black and white, but that morality is a human invention, and reflects those things that motivate us. Our motivations (and thus, the principles we claim to or actually do hold dearest) are never entirely static, and certainly cannot be expected to remain so over 1400+ years..
    For what it's worth, I've found it helpful, too. I can't seem to get past my incredulity that people can believe so strongly in the cult of Mo's personality. Even as a teenager, I found it odd that a man who allegedly worried so much about falling out of the Almighty's good books - and whom, we are told, was just a man, and thus as mortal as other men - should deserve such ridiculous levels of veneration, much less posthumous protection..


    I don't know if you've heard this but Mo claimed that Allah made the world so that he himself would exist. Also, Adam had on his forehead the Arabic word "Muhammed" tattooed in noor. Even while I had my faith, I was like, for real?!?! Then wtf am I doing here?!?
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #76 - July 04, 2011, 03:45 PM

    Fine, I've had some sleep.  So now tell me please, in light of the hadith you posted, how is it "impossible" to marry a baby?  Your own proof states clearly that a virgin's consent is solicited by this - " That she keeps silence. "  

    A baby of 1,2 or 3 is perfectly capable of keeping silence.  


    Yeah you could marry a baby according to Islam and you don't need that hadith to prove that  Tongue And I wouldn't use that hadith because muslims would say you're "quoting out of context" and they might have  a point. Basically, a father may promise his daughter to a man (engagement or marriage) when she's a child or even a baby--that is what Aisha's father did. Mo didn't approach Aisha with sweets or dolls. Once she's past puberty its her choice (well supposed to be) if she wants stay the man she was promised to-thats the correct context of that hadith I posted.

    Quote
    Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr said:

    The scholars are unanimously agreed that a father may marry off his young daughter without consulting her. The Messenger of Allaah married ‘Aa’ishah bint Abi Bakr when she was young, six or seven years old, when her father married her to him.

    Al-Istidhkaar, 16/49-50.

    Secondly:

    The fact that it is permissible to marry a minor girl does not imply that it is permissible to have intercourse with her, rather the husband should not have intercourse with her until she becomes able for that. Hence the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) delayed consummating the marriage to ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her).


    http://islamqa.com/en/ref/12708

    There are quotes from Islamic books about how the woman must be able to physically and mentally enjoy sex for it to be permissible but I cba to find and post them right now, might post later. Guh I hate this stuff, spent months reading about it as a muslim and I didn't leave Islam coz I thought Mo was a paedo. He just wasn't as perfect as I thought he was   Tongue
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #77 - July 05, 2011, 09:52 PM

     piggy piggy piggy

    "A belief in hell and the knowledge that every ambition is doomed to frustration at the hands of a skeleton have never prevented the majority of human beings from behaving as though death were no more than an unfounded rumour."
    Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #78 - July 05, 2011, 10:07 PM

    I don't know if you've heard this but Mo claimed that Allah made the world so that he himself would exist. Also, Adam had on his forehead the Arabic word "Muhammed" tattooed in noor. Even while I had my faith, I was like, for real?!?! Then wtf am I doing here?!?


    GTFO   wacko

    Where did you read that? 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #79 - July 05, 2011, 10:13 PM

    My imam claimed several times that Allah made Mo first, and then made the world for Mo to have an adventure, or words to that effect. If that actually comes from some part of Islam then I would assume Mo said it...
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #80 - July 05, 2011, 10:17 PM

    What, that allah made the world so that allah could exist?

    Or I am reading it wrong?

    Cos its like a chicken - egg - deity sort of fucked up crazy thing to say.   wacko

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #81 - July 05, 2011, 10:19 PM

    Er, I think you're reading it wrong, lol.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #82 - July 05, 2011, 10:19 PM

    Kleine is saying that Allah made the world for Mo to exist.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #83 - July 05, 2011, 10:43 PM

    Well he should have said it better.   nyanya

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #84 - July 05, 2011, 10:53 PM

    Why did Allah make Australia then?  Mo never saw Australia, never showed any awareness that it was even there.  Australia was in no way necessary for Mo's existence, so I think Allah over egged the pudding a bit.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #85 - July 05, 2011, 10:55 PM

    That's easy Cheetah, he made it so that one day criminals could be sent there, which in turn gave us Os, who is a prophet of smf.

    It all makes sense when you break it down.   bunny

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #86 - July 05, 2011, 10:59 PM

    So Allah made Australia just so that Os could exist?  Ok then.  In that case Allah must be an ex-muslim.   parrot

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #87 - July 05, 2011, 11:06 PM

    Well he should have said it better.   nyanya


    Indeed, I could have. Now lets all get along and show ass-pictures of each other. Oh wait, which forum is this again? dance
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #88 - July 06, 2011, 12:30 AM

    ِAn interesting discussion.
     
    It might be of help to know that all traditional Islamic history books are biased and that till today there're no historical rigorous disciplines which incorporate and apply archealogical and other modern techniques used in historical investivations today. Islamic historical writing has never matured in its academic sense understood today (or in the sense of tafseer methologies) nor there were ever set and known criteria to accounting for events. Many of so called Islamic history books therefore cannot be indepedently verified nor did they even follow the islamically accepted way of narration of hadith or the Koran.

    It is the varying different readings of what had happend in the past, for instance, at the end of the reign of the 3rd calliph, Uthman Ibn Afan whom was killed, that schism started in Islam. As a an ex-sunni Muslim, I was taught by those I studied upon for 10 years to distrust the shia interpretations of historical events thenceforth. This distrust is mutual between the two parties and it reaches to the authenticity of the Uthmanic Koran in the eyes of the shia, who claim they have another version of it, Fatima Koran, and that the Uthmanic Koranic text has been tampered with. It is worth mentioning that ibn khallikan has written a historical book to which my teachers were opposed, simply because he was a shia - they didn't have a meaningful way of separating the wheat from the chaff in the book and little is done in the field of history. Imam al-nawawi's accounts for certain aspects of sharia were rejected because he was suspected of being a sufi in methodology.  

    In the sunni camp, Ibn Katheer in his famus book, The Begining and The End, didn't follow the same method of compilling hadith with utmost care, even though the book includes the sirah/seerat which certain Koranic verses cannot be understood without. However, when it comes to his famus tafseer, he was more strict because a) verses and sorats require the reason or the event leading to any revelation in order to be contextualised and properly understood and b) unlike history, there were many companions, namely Ibn Abas and Ibn Umar, who have had commented on the Koranic literature and the way was trodden upon long before him.

    His contemporary, Ibn al-qayyim ( both were students of Ibn Taymiyyah, died in 726 H) wrote his book, Zad al-maad; a book in five volumes each about 400 -500 pages, while travelling on a camel to Mecca with no references available to him but his flawless memory according to his introduction, focused only on seerat and, as any Fageeh who has little knowledge in the field of hadith, relied upon Muhaditheens when it came to backing up his histroical account Mo's actual life - the work's to some extent repetitive and reading it is but going into a revolving door.

    It is not only the so called Islamic history that suffered from biasness and tentativeness; the Arabic poetry too because any peotic literature, which was and still is regarded highly in accounting for battles in Islam, that disagreed with Islam was put out of circulation and forbidden from narration. For example, the killing of Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf and other poets who used their language to discredit Muhammed and his ideology. Read if you wish the famous verse in sorat Ash-shuar'a (Poets) No 26 which discourages dealing in poetry against Mohammed as well as the famous hatith in Bukhari and Muslim narrated by Abu-whoriah re the issue at hand. It's an Orwellian scale of controling human culture and history which didn't agree with the official mainstream narration, and for centuries.

    unfortunately, for those of you who are unaware of these issues and many others, for different reasons including the language barrier, the debate of whether Aiysha was 9 or 10 has not really started. You simply lack the basic ability to ascertain which historical book(s), of the translated ones, you should follow and since no one person in Islam has all the answers or that doesn't depend on other sources, how could it be possible for you even to begin to investigate a thing? It is mission impossible without Tom Cruise.

    Until 5 years ago, the age of marriage for girls in Saudi Arabia was unspecified and unstated in any of the royal proclamations - it is 18 now which begs the question; how could anyone say it is Islamically unlawful for me to marry a girl of 16 years in KSA whilst the prophet did it? It is the moral embarrassment caused by Western media such as the story in the link below that made them raise the age of marriage in Saudi, to which the clergymen have nothing to say but quoting (O believers obey your rulers).        

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7579616.stm
    Also read this related news : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7711554.stm
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #89 - July 06, 2011, 01:13 AM

    Great post Whabbist, please keep them coming.
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