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 Topic: Pedophilia and current rationalizations

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  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #30 - July 03, 2011, 09:41 PM
    I'm not saying it wasn't normal, and I do know about the prior engagement, which I read somewhere was called off around the same time she 'lost all her hair'.

    What I was saying is that the excuse that women matured faster is not right. Women mature faster in this day and age.  

    I think by the definition of pedophilia, that she need to not have begun puberty, then he was one.  Whether it was the norm back then or not.

    The facts don't match up either way, if you have some claiming she was old enough to battle, but hadiths saying she was playing with her dolls when he came and took her, which is the right and the wrong?

    Some say the jewish bukhari spy put the 9yr old stuff in there, but I mean really, if it was the norm back then, why would a jew include a lie that seems normal?

    (not saying you are saying jew, just that I have had that argument thrown back at me before lol which was funny Wink )

    I'm with Cheetah, I don't see why I should have to describe his younger preference as anything but pedophilia simply because that is what its called.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #31 - July 03, 2011, 09:52 PM
    Not quite, Cheetah. It's the difference between saying 'we would now consider Mo's behaviour that of a paedophile' and 'Mo was, in the terms of his own age, a paedophile'. The working definition might appear to be different; a point that I've been belabouring for a while.

    Berbs, I'm looking into your figures now, but they appear to be unattributed beyond that webpage; do you have a more specific cite? I hold no candle for Mo, but I'd be interested in where this comes from; a quick search for data on menarche in the classical period finds this, most of which appears to be dead tree only, so I could do with the help..


    Quote from: Zaiba on July 03, 2011, 09:02 PM
    I love it when you punch someone in the face with facts. Afro


    Speaking of facts, what's the difference between UCL and UEL?
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #32 - July 03, 2011, 10:04 PM
    Sadly no.  Its the only one I can find, there was a better link like 3yrs ago, but for a long time I have been bored of debating Islam, and since then I have been unable to find it.  Laptop/pc changes, bookmark losses etc etc.

    If you can find stuff against it I'm all for seeing that too, since this is the only source I can find. 
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #33 - July 03, 2011, 11:21 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on July 03, 2011, 09:41 PM

    The facts don't match up either way, if you have some claiming she was old enough to battle, but hadiths saying she was playing with her dolls when he came and took her, which is the right and the wrong?

    Some say the jewish bukhari spy put the 9yr old stuff in there, but I mean really, if it was the norm back then, why would a jew include a lie that seems normal?

    (not saying you are saying jew, just that I have had that argument thrown back at me before lol which was funny Wink )



    I don't know, some accept she was 9, others say that these hadith were only reported by one person called Hisham ibn Urwah who apparently suffered from memory loss, apologists claim she was older. The Jewish claim is nothing new to muslims, some sunnis claim the founder of shiaism was a Jew from Yemen  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #34 - July 03, 2011, 11:25 PM
    Somewhere on this forum I read that if you examine closely at Mo's life history, the dates and ages do not match up if Aisha is claimed to be older. Keeping this fact in mind, it's difficult to consider the hadiths that state Aisha was older than 9. It doesn't work out chronologically.

    Therefore, Mo did participate in infanticide, sexual relations with minors and child marriages, hence he was a Peadophile.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #35 - July 03, 2011, 11:35 PM
    Quote from: Zaiba on July 03, 2011, 11:25 PM

    Therefore, Mo did participate in infanticide and child marriages, hence he was a Peadophile.


     Huh? Does not compute.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #36 - July 03, 2011, 11:40 PM
    Can't really be arsed doing this debate again or reading all the above posts through thoroughly but just want to point that according to the usual definiton, the sexual attraction to kiddies needs to be exclusive, or at least primary - a preference, basically - , to be considered paedophilia. (Well, it was the last time I checked anyway...)
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #37 - July 03, 2011, 11:43 PM
    And your point is....?  

    Aisha was Mohammed's favourite wife, the other lot used to give up their nights with him to let him be with Aisha.  So presumably you are arguing that Mohammed WAS a paedophile?

    Btw, with the exception of Kadija, how old were Mohammed's other wives?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #38 - July 03, 2011, 11:57 PM
    I'm actually more inclined these days to argue (when I can be arsed) that he wasn't a paedophile. As, to my knowledge, none of his other wives/slave-girls were pre-pubescent. I don't know the chronology wrt when he was spending most time with her, maybe she had matured by then, maybe there were other reaons he preferred her company. On the other hand, maybe he acquired a taste for pre-teen ass once he had sampled some. I think there is a hadith where he wanted to marry some toddler as soon as she was 'old enough' (he died before that happened). We don't know.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #39 - July 03, 2011, 11:58 PM
    Quote
    Not quite, Cheetah. It's the difference between saying 'we would now consider Mo's behaviour that of a paedophile' and 'Mo was, in the terms of his own age, a paedophile'. The working definition might appear to be different; a point that I've been belabouring for a while.


    I don't think anyone was claiming that Mo was a paedophile within the standards of his own age.  I've certainly never heard anyone claim that, not even extremists like Ali Sina.  The whole point about Mo's paedophilia is that it is being followed in this day and age, on the grounds that Mo is an example to follow, and that is why he is being  criticised by today's standards.

    Nobody really cares who bonked who back in the 7th century, its what happening now and why that prompts people to call Mohammed a paedophile.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #40 - July 03, 2011, 11:58 PM
    I've argued this point with several muslims recently. My view is that it was paedophilia, my reasons for thinking this are;

    In the past we believed false things like the sun revolving around the earth, with inquiry and the use of technology we know now that the earth revolves around the sun.

    In the past many cultures had no concept of childhood, or believed that adulthood began at menarche. Childhood didn't really begin to be conceptualized until the invention and widespread use of the printing press which revolutionized methods of education, which helped literacy to spread.

    Modern research into neurology, biology and psychology has shown that human being don't significantly mature cognitively, physically, and psychologically until late teens.

    Cultures in the past were wrong to believe that the onset of puberty meant that someone was an adult. With research we now know that a 9 year old who begins puberty can't be considered an adult.

    There are reports of a girl called Lima Medina giving birth at 5 years old, she had to give birth by C-section because her pelvis wasn't developed enough to give birth through normal means. By the reasoning of Muslim apologists the fact that she had began puberty and was capable of falling pregnant, meant she was considered an adult at 5! And it was legitimate for someone to marry and have sex with her, despite the fact that without medical intervention via C-section, serious health complications could have arisen simply because she didn't posses an adult body.

    Basically the the onset of puberty doesn't signify adulthood, and it is only an external physical indicator of changes taking place within the body. We now can monitor brain development and carry out research into childhood and adolescent psychological development.





    An alternative to religion;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #41 - July 04, 2011, 12:13 AM
    Quote from: Zaiba on July 03, 2011, 11:25 PM
    Somewhere on this forum I read that if you examine closely at Mo's life history, the dates and ages do not match up if Aisha is claimed to be older. Keeping this fact in mind, it's difficult to consider the hadiths that state Aisha was older than 9. It doesn't work out chronologically.



    The same argument can be used for saying he isn't a paedo. If you calculate her age by comparing her to her sister (her age and time of death) then she was most likely 17+ Atheist.pk posted  a video about this in another thread and there's something about a surah being 'revealed' during the Makkah period which implies she was older coz if she was 9 that surah would have been 'revealed' before she was born. I don't know the exact story or what surah it is. I'll have to look it up.


    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on July 03, 2011, 11:57 PM
    I'm actually more inclined these days to argue (when I can be arsed) that he wasn't a paedophile. As, to my knowledge, none of his other wives/slave-girls were pre-pubescent. I don't know the chronology wrt when he was spending most time with her, maybe she had matured by then, maybe there were other reaons he preferred her company. On the other hand, maybe he acquired a taste for pre-teen ass once he had sampled some. I think there is a hadith where he wanted to marry some toddler as soon as she was 'old enough' (he died before that happened). We don't know.



    I think its more to do with her brains and being politically aware, she is regarded as one of the greatest scholars of Islam and was active in shaping the state Mo left behind. Afaik the youngest woman (apart from Aisha) that he married was the Jewish woman Zainab who was around 17.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #42 - July 04, 2011, 12:28 AM
    That is something I haven't heard of before, so would be quite interesting to see the hadith regarding this matter. Afro
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #43 - July 04, 2011, 12:37 AM
    Aphrodite, Prince Spinoza, Toor and all other apologists - can you point me to one country whose legal system is run by Islamic law which doesn't alllow the marriage of 9 year old girls?



    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #44 - July 04, 2011, 12:40 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on July 04, 2011, 12:37 AM
    Aphrodite, Prince Spinoza, Toor and all other apologists


    Huh?

    Quote
    - can you point me to one country whose legal system is run by Islamic law which doesn't alllow the marriage of 9 year old girls?



    Why?
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #45 - July 04, 2011, 12:46 AM
    You should know why.  The whole point of discussing Mo's paedophilia is the fact that it is still being used as the excuse for the same practice continuing today.  Without that, nobody would give two hoots who was sleeping with who back in the 7th century.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #46 - July 04, 2011, 12:49 AM
    Obviously they do, as evidenced by posts in this thread...
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #47 - July 04, 2011, 12:58 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on July 04, 2011, 12:37 AM
    Aphrodite, Prince Spinoza, Toor and all other apologists - can you point me to one country whose legal system is run by Islamic law which doesn't alllow the marriage of 9 year old girls?



    LOL at the "apologist" I'm not defending Mo. I'm just putting out my views.

    Islamic law doesn't work according to age, its why in Yemen its the Islamists that are against a law that sets an age limit. Things are apparently supposed to be done by puberty.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #48 - July 04, 2011, 01:04 AM
    Quote from: Zaiba on July 04, 2011, 12:28 AM
    That is something I haven't heard of before, so would be quite interesting to see the hadith regarding this matter. Afro


    Okay, basically if she was 9 when the marriage was consummated after hijra (migration to Medina) then she was born 9 years before hijra, right? But according to a 'sahih' hadith she was born earlier:

    Quote
    Narrated Yusuf bin Mahik: I was in the house of 'Aisha, the mother of the Believers. She said, "This revelation: "Nay, but the Hour is their appointed time (for their full recompense); and the Hour will be more previous and most bitter." (54.46) was revealed to Muhammad at Mecca while I was a playfull little girl." 


    http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=60&translator=1&start=395&number=399

    Surah 54 is Surah Al-Qamar which was revealed in Mecca 9 years before hijra. Meaning according to this hadith she was older. She can't have been a "playful little girl" when she was just born.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #49 - July 04, 2011, 01:36 AM
    Quote from: Aphrodite on July 04, 2011, 01:04 AM
    Okay, basically if she was 9 when the marriage was consummated after hijra (migration to Medina) then she was born 9 years before hijra, right? But according to a 'sahih' hadith she was born earlier:

    http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=60&translator=1&start=395&number=399

    Surah 54 is Surah Al-Qamar which was revealed in Mecca 9 years before hijra. Meaning according to this hadith she was older. She can't have been a "playful little girl" when she was just born.


    Babies can be considered playful too, but that's not quite the point. I think we're getting to 'which hadith/surah combo is right', so here is what Berbs posted (which I find very interesting):

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha%27s_Age_of_Consummation

    There are a multitude of hadith used to show how it was possible for Aisha to be 9 years old when her marriage was consummated with Muhammed.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #50 - July 04, 2011, 01:44 AM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on July 03, 2011, 11:57 PM
    I'm actually more inclined these days to argue (when I can be arsed) that he wasn't a paedophile. As, to my knowledge, none of his other wives/slave-girls were pre-pubescent.

    And so, a man who has been in relationships with many women, eventually getting married and having children, who then occasionally messes with his daughter, is not a pedophile?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #51 - July 04, 2011, 01:45 AM
    Quote from: Aphrodite on July 04, 2011, 12:58 AM
    LOL at the "apologist" I'm not defending Mo. I'm just putting out my views.

    Islamic law doesn't work according to age, its why in Yemen its the Islamists that are against a law that sets an age limit. Things are apparently supposed to be done by puberty.


    So, if a girl reaches puberty at the age of 8 or 9 in an Islamic country, is it okay for an old man to have sex with her?

    What is the age of consent for a girl in Saudi Arabia, or Iran?  And why?

    What is the age of consent for a girl as laid down by the Qu'ran?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #52 - July 04, 2011, 01:59 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on July 04, 2011, 01:44 AM
    And so, a man who has been in relationships with many women, eventually getting married and having children, who then occasionally messes with his daughter, is not a pedophile?


    Not according to the medical definition.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #53 - July 04, 2011, 02:02 AM
    Quote from: kleine Bruder on July 04, 2011, 01:36 AM
    Babies can be considered playful too, but that's not quite the point. I think we're getting to 'which hadith/surah combo is right', so here is what Berbs posted (which I find very interesting):

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha%27s_Age_of_Consummation



    There's a difference between a baby and a little girl. WikiIslam  Roll Eyes

    Quote from: kleine Bruder on July 04, 2011, 01:36 AM

    There are a multitude of hadith used to show how it was possible for Aisha to be 9 years old when her marriage was consummated with Muhammed.


    There are many hadith that can prove or imply that she was older.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #54 - July 04, 2011, 02:07 AM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on July 04, 2011, 01:59 AM
    Not according to the medical definition.


    I take that back. A medical definition. Seems a lot of them don't necessitate exclusivity/preference.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #55 - July 04, 2011, 02:09 AM
    Quote from: Cheetah on July 04, 2011, 01:45 AM
    So, if a girl reaches puberty at the age of 8 or 9 in an Islamic country, is it okay for an old man to have sex with her?

    What is the age of consent for a girl in Saudi Arabia, or Iran?  And why?

    What is the age of consent for a girl as laid down by the Qu'ran?


    If they're married, yes.

    No point talking about Iran, seeing as the hadith we're talking are rejected by them and some shiahs call Aisha an adulterous whore  Cheesy

    There is no age of consent in Saudi because there's no age of consent in the Quran.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #56 - July 04, 2011, 02:11 AM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on July 04, 2011, 01:59 AM
    Not according to the medical definition.

    There isn't just one kind of pedophilia.

    But anyway, what do you call him instead when you are arguing he is not a pedophile?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #57 - July 04, 2011, 02:14 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on July 04, 2011, 02:11 AM
    what do you call him instead when you are arguing he is not a pedophile?


    Abusive? Mentally disturbed? Fuckin' wanker?
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #58 - July 04, 2011, 02:16 AM
    I'll let you off then.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #59 - July 04, 2011, 02:19 AM
    A little digging indicates that most researchers make a distinction between a child molester and a paedophile. So I guess the former might be fitting.
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