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 Topic: Pedophilia and current rationalizations

 (Read 26139 times)
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  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #120 - September 29, 2011, 12:59 AM

    ^^^

    so be it.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #121 - September 29, 2011, 01:43 PM

    And that is hagiography.

    Saying that by all accounts she had no 'mental distress' as a defence of the consummation of a marriage between a fifty year old man and 9 year old child assumes that any mental distress she might have felt would be described in the body of Islamic narrative - a body that was composed to (by the light of those writing it and perpetuate it) project Muhammad as the most perfect man who ever had and ever shall walk the earth.

    To put it in laymans terms, they would say that, wouldn't they?



    Why don't they (the majority of muslims) say hadith about her being 9 yrs old are false? Surely that would help to project him as the perfect man and role model. Why not do the same to other controversial subjects regarding him too? Both of those would be better than 'covering up' what she went through, no?

    You know, Ayesha is the one that gets most of the attention. Safiyah is the one that distresses me equally when I think about it. Muhammad killed her husband and tribe, and then took her as his wife as war booty. Of course, the hagiography never mentions any mental distress she may have felt at seeing her husband and people killed, and then to have the leader of those who killed them, marry you and have sex with you.

    As with alot in Islamic history, we have to use our imagination in the darkness.




    Yes, as far as I know very little is mentioned of her during the time her tribe was killed, and again you wouldn't know know what happened to her husband and tribe if it wasn't for those very Islamic sources  Tongue

    So basically what you're saying is, Islamic sources are good when they can be used to criticise him and that they don't go far enough to reveal all the "darkness" but they can't be used to 'defend' him because the authors wanted him to be the perfect man. Got ya  Afro
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #122 - September 29, 2011, 02:03 PM

    Quote
    Why don't they (the majority of muslims) say hadith about her being 9 yrs old are false? Surely that would help to project him as the perfect man and role model. Why not do the same to other controversial subjects regarding him too? Both of those would be better than 'covering up' what she went through, no?


    You've just answered your own question, and explained how hagiography works, and hinted on what prevents this happening, and the tensions and moral contortions that faces the believer in Islam today like never before.

    For example, to simply deny any of it happened at all opens up a complete abyss for Islam, because with emptiness and nothingness as far as the life and narrative of Muhammad is concerned, what is Islam predicated on at all?

    Let me explain further.

    The accepted narratives of Islamic canon regarding Muhammad are what we're talking about - the situation on its own terms.

    Lets use Aisha to illustrate this.

    The accepted canon states certain things - the age of both Muhammad and Aisha at the consummation of the marriage.

    A defence of Mo as stated by devilsadvokat suggests that nowhere in the accepted canon of Islamic narrative does it state that Aisha was unhappy or objected as a minor to being married and having intercourse with a 50 year old man.

    One doesn't follow the other.

    Lets refer to Saffiya again.

    Accepted Islamic canon says her husband and family and community were all killed at Mohammad's behest, and soon afterwards, she was having sex with the man who killed her loved ones, and married her as 'war booty'

    That is Islam's claim. All Muslims believe this action to be 'fact'.

    By using our imagination about what it would be like to see your husband, and community killed, and then be taken as 'war booty', married to the perpetrator of the killing, and be having sex with him very soon afterwards (I think just one or two days later), we can at the very minimum, imagine that it might not have been a nice thing, and that Saffiya didn't have personal choice and autonomy, and that any expression as such is unlikely to feature in the hagiography that becomes Islamic narrative on the life of Muhammad.

    Remember, we're discussing the assertions made specifically on actions of Muhammad, by the standard carrative canon that all Muslims believe in. There is another discussion to be had about whether it happened at all thats for another time.

    Will write more later on this if you like.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #123 - September 29, 2011, 02:44 PM

    You've just answered your own question, and explained how hagiography works, and hinted on what prevents this happening, and the tensions and moral contortions that faces the believer in Islam today like never before.

    For example, to simply deny any of it happened at all opens up a complete abyss for Islam, because with emptiness and nothingness as far as the life and narrative of Muhammad is concerned, what is Islam predicated on at all?



    To deny some hadith or replace the narrative wouldn't make his life empty.


    Lets refer to Saffiya again.

    Accepted Islamic canon says her husband and family and community were all killed at Mohammad's behest, and soon afterwards, she was having sex with the man who killed her loved ones, and married her as 'war booty'

    That is Islam's claim. All Muslims believe this action to be 'fact'.

    By using our imagination about what it would be like to see your husband, and community killed, and then be taken as 'war booty', married to the perpetrator of the killing, and be having sex with him very soon afterwards (I think just one or two days later), we can at the very minimum, imagine that it might not have been a nice thing, and that Saffiya didn't have personal choice and autonomy, and that any expression as such is unlikely to feature in the hagiography that becomes Islamic narrative on the life of Muhammad.

    Remember, we're discussing the assertions made specifically on actions of Muhammad, by the standard carrative canon that all Muslims believe in. There is another discussion to be had about whether it happened at all thats for another time.




    Umm no, that's not the Islamic claim. The Islamic narrative tries to romanticise it  Roll Eyes I had this book about his wives, it has short chapters about each of his wife and it mentions the killing of her tribe. From what I can remember she was 'recommended' to him (there's hadith about that too) by one of his pals, he gave her the choice to leave and be free or marry him and convert because she loved Islam since she was a young girl (according to that book) so chose him and Allah (lulz) he wanted to consummate the marriage and she refused, so it was consummated later. Oh and he apologised for killing her father  Cheesy

    You need to make assertions based on what I've written above. I probably still have that book somewhere. I don't remember the name :S If I remember I'll find you and online copy if you want it.

    I doubt the Islamic narrative is true but I don't think she was forced to marry him either. I don't know what to make of it  wacko
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #124 - September 29, 2011, 02:53 PM


    Quote
    To deny some hadith or replace the narrative wouldn't make his life empty.


    Think about the consequences of it though - saying that what amounts to definitive narratives of Muhammad's life and actions can simply be discarded on personal conscience issues subverts 1400 years of Islamic canon, institutional scholarship, accepted 'truth' and thus, the unique truth claims of Islam.

    Quote
    I doubt the Islamic narrative is true but I don't think she was forced to marry him either. I don't know what to make of it 


    If you take the divine halo off Muhammad it becomes clearer.


    Quote
    Umm no, that's not the Islamic claim. The Islamic narrative tries to romanticise it


    And that is why it is hagiographical.

    I don't think we're disagreeing fundamentally to be honest.





    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #125 - September 29, 2011, 03:00 PM

    @Aphrodite

    It would be abnormal if someone married a killer of her husband and her father without being forced. Dont you find it odd?

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #126 - September 29, 2011, 03:13 PM

    @Aphrodite

    It would be abnormal if someone married a killer of her husband and her father without being forced. Dont you find it odd?

      Nope.. It is will of Allah.....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #127 - September 29, 2011, 04:15 PM

    .Umm no, that's not the Islamic claim. The Islamic narrative tries to romanticise it

     Roll Eyes I had this book about his wives, it has short chapters about each of his wife and it mentions the killing of her tribe. From what I can remember she was 'recommended' to him (there's hadith about that too) by one of his pals, he gave her the choice to leave and be free or marry him and convert because she loved Islam since she was a young girl (according to that book) so chose him and Allah (lulz) he wanted to consummate the marriage and she refused, so it was consummated later. Oh and he apologised for killing her father  Cheesy

    ............... I don't know what to make of it  wacko

    Yes... Islam romanticizes.,  We can sing romantic  songs and make criminals and cult leaders as heroes of this world. Good story on that 20 year old Juicy Juice lady.
    Quote
    Juwayriyyah bint al-Harith bin Abi Birar bin Habib, great grandson of Jadhimah al-Mustaliq of the Khuza’ah group, was taken as booty when Muslims raided the al-Mustaliq tribe. Her husband, Musafi’ bin Safwan Dhu al-Shuir bin Abi Asrb bin Malik bin Jadhimah was killed in the battle. She was a prisoner of war who agreed to marry Mohammed. al-Tabari vol.39 p.182-183; al-Tabari vol.9 p.133.

    Juwayriyyah was captured at the Battle of al-Muraysi [against the Banu Mustaliq]. al-Tabari vol.39 p.183

    Juwayriyya married Mohammed when she was 20 years old. al-Tabari vol.39 p.184


    But Aphrodite worse is this that we see in Quran..
    Quote
    Sura 33:36-38 in the Qur’an says, "It is not for any believer, man or woman, when God and His Messenger have decreed a matter, to have the choice in the affair. Whosoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has gone astray into manifest error. When you said to him whom Allah had blessed and you had favoured, ‘Keep your wife to yourself, and fear Allah,’ and you were concealing within yourself what Allah should reveal, fearing other men; and Allah has better right for you to fear him.

    So when Zaid had accomplished what he would of her, then We gave her in marriage to you, so that there should not be any fault in the believers, touching the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished what they would of them; and Allah’s commandment must be performed. There is no fault in the prophet, touching what Allah had ordained for him."


    Yes sleep with adopted son's wife in the name of Allah.

    And here is another hero who sleeps with his own son's wife for the sake of god..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nXkTDIbJ_4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4KDGgaO5Bo

    Errr.....
    ............... I don't know what to make of it wacko


    I too don't know what to make of it Aphrodite

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #128 - September 29, 2011, 05:45 PM

    Talking about Pedophilia and Islam the word "Mufaakhathah"  comes out of the brain. What does it mean? Where did it come from??  well  don't want to read it  you guys can read the Fatwa.. May be you guys  should also read that bitter angry  "sahara".. The Berber queen of CEMB in FFI..lol..

    Quote
    SAHIH AL-BUKHARI

        Narrated Aisha:
        The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)

        Narrated Hisham's father:
        Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236)

        Narrated 'Aisha:
        Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.'" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 140; see also Number 139)

        Narrated 'Aisha:
        that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64; see also Numbers 65 and 88)

    Well that problem of thighing by some Bedouin bum( May be Prophet Muhammad didn't do it.. didn't marry Aisha.. it is all bull shit .. Islam is filled with bull shit .. May be there was no Muhammad.. it is all stupid story..) did 1000s of year back but it creates terrible trauma in child life in  some   present Islamic societies of 21st century.. ..

    Now let us watch that Ghada Jamshir on Islam and Child pornography..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMS0YexWBTk

    Well those of you who are good in Arabic please visit her blog

    A very brave soul..  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #129 - September 29, 2011, 05:47 PM

    did mo fuck any other kids apart for aisha?
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #130 - September 29, 2011, 06:01 PM

    Would it matter if he didnt?

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #131 - September 29, 2011, 06:04 PM

    did mo fuck any other kids apart for aisha?

    As far as I am concerned answer is "NO".

    In fact I have a doubt That Muhammad of first 10 years of Islam is same as that last 13 years of Islam. And  I believe that  there was NO Aisha and these idiots who wrote Islamic history put together multiple characters of Arabian desert and wrote some silly stories as stories of "Muhammad" .. The prophet of Islam..

    Stupid people rubbish stories..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #132 - September 29, 2011, 07:38 PM

    Yeez u got your maths abit mixed up...20 + 13 = 33 years

    Mohammed proselytised islam for 23 years

  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #133 - September 29, 2011, 07:40 PM

    Talking about Pedophilia and Islam the word "Mufaakhathah"  comes out of the brain.


    I honestly honestly misread that as ‘Muthafucka’!
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #134 - September 29, 2011, 09:06 PM

    Yeez u got your maths abit mixed up...20 + 13 = 33 years

    Mohammed proselytised islam for 23 years

    you are indeed right dear serpentofeden.. Let me correct the error  and add this to the readers. I have done this in various forums number of times..

    One of the defense often Muslim guys offer to this actions of Muhammad(that we see In Hadith) marrying/sleeping with 9 old girl is this
    Quote
    A man can't make out with his wife?

    You won't give Muhammad any privacy and respect?


    How perverted!!
    _________________
    Yeezeevee wrote: people are NOT GOING TO BELIEVE in such silly stories murder of Sumayah, the torture of Bilal, story of Abu Jahl bayoneting this old lady Sumayah.. stories such as this

    FFI Hypocrisy........

     that good friend defended with those words   during a discussion in ffi.

    My Answer was:


    if a man is a 53 year old guy and he got a 6-9 year old wife because of his Social power and the social structure of a society without ivokinh allah/god.. then it is/it was o.k.,  I can defend Muhammad with time function or culture function saying "that it was the normal in those days"  BUT IF  THAT RASCAL DOES IT IN THE NAME OF ALLAH.. speaking to Allah/god every day then we have a problem. Such action from such such respectable fellow   is a. NO ...NO..

    I do give the respect to Prophet Muhammad deserves but that is , until his first wife Khadija was alive.  But after that what we have in historical Islam is a just a criminal character. SO think there were at least two different Muhammad's in Islam.

    Any ways., Islam has serious problem with the Character   "Muhammad" unlike the characters of Christianity and Judaism namely  Jesus.  & Moses.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #135 - September 29, 2011, 09:08 PM

    I honestly honestly misread that as ‘Muthafucka’!

     Cheesy   well it is same thing.. sounds like rap song..Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #136 - September 29, 2011, 11:25 PM

    @Aphrodite

    It would be abnormal if someone married a killer of her husband and her father without being forced. Dont you find it odd?


    I think she was given a choice as being his sex slave or his wife and she decided to take the best option available to her. I find everything and everyone odd  wacko
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #137 - September 30, 2011, 05:27 AM

    I wouldn't necessarly disagree with that. Ancient ( and modern) history is full of one group taking over another group qnd taking their women.  It reminds me of the WW II story when the Russians took Berlin and there were mass rapes going on.  A German man and woman were huddled in a basement when a group of Russians burst in.  No guns were pointed but they took his wife and raped her in front of him.  Though if we were take the hagiography point of view she went willingly because she didn't resist.  One could even say she wanted to go with them so it wasn't rape, if one wanted to paint a picture in hind sight. And maybe the Russians even thought she might have wanted to have sex with them because they were the victors or they thought she was a dog, it doesn't really matter.  The threat is implicated and there hanging in the air.  We all can see it. No doubt that threat has occurred many times in the past and will happen again in the future.

    But its silly to call it anything but rape.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #138 - September 30, 2011, 11:27 PM

    As far as the Prophets sexual urges are concerened neither the cases of Ayesha or Saffya give me as great concern as when his urges got the better of him regarding his adopted son Zaid's wife Zaynab. In trying to call on Allah to justify his lust it seems the whole concept of adoption took a battering.

    Ultimately, the tangled web he weaved resulted in the prohibition of calling any one the child of someone other than his/her biological father, the outcome of which means that hundreds of muslim put up for adoption say in the UK do not find homes with muslim foster parents.

    They are denied the chance to call them their own, laws of succession go awry, the rules of muhrim - all in all  puts off a great number of potential muslim foster parents.

    It has been reported that the Prophet once said 'once said that a person who cares for an orphaned child will be in Paradise with him' (he was an orphan himself), if only the whole messy business with Zaynab had not occurred, that may well have been the over-riding sentiment of muslims today - but for Zaynab.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: Pedophilia and current rationalizations
     Reply #139 - October 02, 2011, 07:42 PM

    ^^what happened with saffya
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