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Theme Changer

 Topic: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"

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  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #30 - August 01, 2011, 01:59 PM

    For 4:6 see the link I gave you.

    And for 65:4 see:
    http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/65/4/default.htm

    Asad's is usually decent.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #31 - August 01, 2011, 02:20 PM

    Emerald,

    AFAIK Quranists consider Hadith Bukhari and Muslim as a mix of truth and falsehood and not authoritative............... just like the earliest Muslims.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/52181127/The-opponents-to-the-writing-of-tradition-in-early-islam-michael-cook


    And as for Bukhari and Muslim being "most authenticated", that is the common position TODAY, but did you know for example Bukhari and Muslim's Hadith collections were not accepted originally. For various reasons. Its all there for anyone to read in Traditional Islamic history.




    This makes it worse!!


    And early Muslims had hard time believing in Hadiths. That's true.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #32 - August 01, 2011, 02:27 PM

    For 4:6 see the link I gave you.

    And for 65:4 see:
    http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/65/4/default.htm

    Asad's is usually decent.

     wonderful.. wonderful  link., so many translations in one place
    Quote
    Generally Accepted Translations of the Meaning

    Muhammad Asad   :    Now as for such of your women as are beyond, the age of monthly courses, as well as for such as do not have any courses, their waiting-period - if you have any doubt [about it] - shall be three [calendar] months; and as for those who are with child, the end of their waiting-term shall come when they deliver their burden. And for everyone who is conscious of God, He makes it easy to obey His commandment:   

    M. M. Pickthall          And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him.   

    Shakir          And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.   

    Yusuf Ali       Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.   

    Wahiduddin Khan          In the case of those of your wives who have passed the age of menstruation, if you have any doubt, know that their waiting period is three months; and that will apply likewise to those who have not yet menstruated; the waiting period of those who are pregnant will be until they deliver their burden [give birth]. God makes things easy for those who are mindful of Him.   

    [Al-Muntakhab]   [/b][/u]       And those of your women who have renounced the hope of experiencing their menstrual courses again, and you are in doubt of the date or of the nature of the discharge, then they have to wait for a set period of three months. A similar set period is obligatory to those who have not yet experienced these periodic courses. As for those who are in process of gestation, their set period accords with the duration of the pregnancy and ends when they have been relieved of their burden; and he who entertains the profound reverence dutiful Allah, will Allah facilitate his task and lead him to a facile and useful life.   

    [Progressive Muslims]          As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. And as for those whose menstruation has ceased, and those who are already pregnant, their interim is until they give birth. And anyone who reverences God, He makes his matters easy for him.   

    Abdel Haleem          If you are in doubt, the period of waiting will be three months for those women who have ceased menstruating and for those who have not [yet] menstruated; the waiting period of those who are pregnant will be until they deliver their burden: God makes things easy for those who are mindful of Him.

    Abdul Majid Daryabadi          And as to such of your women as have despaired of menstruation, if ye be in doubt thereof, their waiting period is three months, as also of those who have not yet menstruated. And as to those with burthens, their term is when they lay down their burthen. And whosoever feareth Allah, He maketh his affair Unto him easy.   

    Ahmed Ali          And those (F) who became infertile/despaired from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count (is) three months, and those (F) who did not menstruate, and (those) of the pregnant , their term/time (is) that (E) they (F) give birth/drop their (F) off spring/loads/pregnancies , and who fears and obeys God, He makes/puts from his matter/affair ease/flexibility.   

    Aisha Bewley          In the case of those of your wives who are past the age of menstruation, if you have any doubt, their ´idda should be three months, and that also applies to those who have not yet menstruated. The time for women who are pregnant is when they give birth. Whoever has taqwa of Allah — He will make matters easy for him.    

    Ali Ünal          Those of your women who have passed the age of monthly courses (or those who for some reason do not have monthly periods) – if you are in uncertainty about it – their waiting-period is three (lunar) months. As for the women who are pregnant (whether divorced or widows), their waiting-period is until they deliver their burden. Whoever keeps from disobedience to God in reverence for Him and piety, He makes his affair easy for him.   

    Ali Quli Qara'i          As for those of your wives who do not hope to have menses, should you have any doubts, their term shall be three months, and for those [as well] who have not yet had menses. As for those who are pregnant, their term shall be until they deliver. And whoever is wary of Allah, He shall grant him ease in his affairs.   

    Amatul Rahman Omar          If you are in doubt (how to calculate the period) of such of your women as have despaired of monthly courses, then (know that) period for which they must wait is three months and (the same holds good) for such women as have not menstruated (for some other reasons). And (as to) pregnant women, their term (will end) when they are delivered of their burden (after giving birth to a child). And (bear in mind) for the one who keeps his duty to Allah, He will provide facility in his affair for him.   

    Hamid S. Aziz          And as for those of your women who have despaired (passed the age) of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses. As for the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they bring forth their burden (give birth); and whoever is careful of their duty to Allah He will make easy for him his path.    

    Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali          And as for those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, in case you have any suspicion, then their (fixed) spell shall be three months, (along) with those who have not menstruated (as yet). And (as for) those with burden, (i.e., those who are pregnant) their term is when they bring forth their burden; and whoever is pious to Allah, He will make for him, of His Command, easiness.   

    Muhammad Sarwar          If you have any doubt whether your wives have reached the stage of menopause, the waiting period will be three months. This will also be the same for those who do not experience menstruation. The end of the waiting period for a pregnant woman is the delivery. God will make the affairs of one who fears Him easy.   

    Muhammad Taqi Usmani          And those women from among you who have despaired of (further) menstruation, if you are in doubt, their ‘Iddah is three months, as well as of those who have not yet menstruated. As for those having pregnancy, their term (of ‘Iddah ) is that they give birth to their child. And whoever fears Allah, He brings about ease for him in his affair.   

    Shabbir Ahmed          And such of your women as no longer expect menstruation, as well as those women who do not have menstruation (for any physiological reason), to resolve your doubts, their waiting period is ordained to be three months. And for those who are pregnant, the waiting period ends when they deliver their burden. And anyone who is mindful of Allah, He will make his situation easy for him.   

    Syed Vickar Ahamed          Such of your women who have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if you have any doubts, (the period) is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same). And for those who carry (life within their wombs) their period is until they deliver their burden, and for he who fears Allah, He will make their path easy for him.

    Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)        And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.   

    Farook Malik          If you have any doubt concerning those of your wives who have ceased menstruating, then you should know that their waiting period will be three months, and the same will apply to those who have no menstruation due to young age or a disease. As for those who are pregnant, their waiting period will end with delivery. Allah will ease the hardship of those who fear Him.   

    Dr. Munir Munshey          (Remember), if you are in doubt about the ´iddat.´ of your women, _ either because they are past the age, or haven´t yet started to menstruate _ it lasts three months. The ´iddat´ for the pregnant women (is three months, or it) lasts till the termination of pregnancy. (iddat: the period after divorce during which a woman is forbidden to remarry). Allah (grants a leeway and) makes matters easy for the one who fears Him.   

    Tahir-ul-Qadri Mohammad          And those of your women who have no hope of menstruation, if you doubt (as to what will be their prescribed period), then their prescribed period is three months. And for those women who have not yet menstruated (their prescribed period is also the same). As for the pregnant women, their term is till the birth of the child. And whoever fears Allah, He makes his matter easy for him.   zoom

    Controversial, deprecated, or status undetermined works

    Bijan Moeinian          The women who have reached menopause, their waiting period is three lunar months. The same law applies to women who have not menstruated yet or have delayed their menstruation. As for the pregnant women their waiting period ends as they deliver their baby. The one who puts his trust in God, He will make his path easy to pave.   

    Faridul Haque          And for those of your women who have no hope of menstruation, if you doubt, the appointed period is three months - and also for those who have not yet had menstruation; and the appointed period for the pregnant women is up to the time they deliver their burden; and whoever fears Allah – Allah will create ease for him in his affairs.

    Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah          As for your women who have despaired of further menstruating, if you are in doubt, then their waiting period is three months as well as those who have not yet menstruated. As for those who are pregnant, their term shall be the time they deliver their burden. Allah will ease (matters) by His order for whosoever fears Him.   

    Maulana Muhammad Ali       And those of your women who despair of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time is three months, and of those, too, who have not had their courses. And the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden. And whoever keeps his duty to Allah, He makes his affair easy for him.   

    Muhammad Ahmed - Samira          As for your women who have lost hope of menstruation, and in case you have a doubt, the prescribed period (of waiting) for them is three months, as also for those who have not menstruated yet. As for those who are pregnant, their prescribed period is until the delivery of the child. God will make things easy for him who is mindful of God.

    Sher Ali          And if you are in doubt as to the prescribed period for such of your women as have despaired of monthly courses, then know that the prescribed period for them is three months, and also for such as do not have their monthly courses yet. And as for those who are with child, their period shall be until they are delivered of their burden. And whoso fears ALLAH, HE will provide facilities for him in his affair.

    Yusuf Ali (org.)          Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their perio d is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear God, He will make their path easy.   

    Rashad Khalifa          As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. As for those who do not menstruate, and discover that they are pregnant, their interim ends upon giving birth. Anyone who reverences GOD, He makes everything easy for him.    

    Hilali & Khan          And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubts (about their periods), is three months, and for those who have no courses ((i.e. they are still immature) their Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise, except in case of death) . And for those who are pregnant (whether they are divorced or their husbands are dead), their Iddah (prescribed period) is until they deliver (their burdens), and whosoever fears Allah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him.

    Maududi          The waiting period of those of your women who have lost all expectation of menstruation shall be three months in case you entertain any doubt; and the same shall apply to those who have not yet menstruated. As for pregnant women, their waiting period shall be until the delivery of their burden. Allah will create ease for him who fears Allah.

    And that verse was supposed from Allah?? god? .. why ?

    nay ways so WhoMan you think that Muhammad Asad translation is good?? could be that guy drank lot of juice..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #33 - August 01, 2011, 03:05 PM

    My question is.. why all the despair and lost hope for not having
    menses?   Cheesy  ITS GRRRRRRREAT being rid of that mess!

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #34 - August 01, 2011, 03:08 PM

    Quote
    and for those who have no courses ((i.e. they are still immature) .


    واللائي لم يحضن

    That's a verb, in Engl it'll be something like: menstruate,

    phrase to be:  (((And those who have not menstruated)))


    So it's left to the reader (who aint interested in Tafsirs) to judge and decide whether those girls are meant to be children, or...!

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #35 - August 01, 2011, 03:38 PM

    For 4:6 see the link I gave you.

    And for 65:4 see:
    http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/65/4/default.htm

    Asad's is usually decent.


    a. Why do you think his translation is acceptable and others' are not? The link you provided states various other translations too under "generally accepted translations". Besides the Asad version is one of the later versions I presume?
    b. If you think theirs contradict the Quran, then without asserting the quran is true, why can't the Quran itself be contradictory?
    c. Could the Quran have been clearer on the subject, in such a way to avoid misinterpretations?
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #36 - August 01, 2011, 03:39 PM

    واللائي لم يحضن

    That's a verb, in Engl it'll be something like: menstruate,

    phrase to be:  (((And those who have not menstruated)))


    So it's left to the reader (who aint interested in Tafsirs) to judge and decide whether those girls are meant to be children, or...!

    Thanks Emmy. Could always use an arabic scholar on time!  grin12
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #37 - August 02, 2011, 06:17 PM

    Emerald,

    Quote
    So it's left to the reader (who aint interested in Tafsirs) to judge and decide whether those girls are meant to be children, or...!


    Yes, its left to the reader to judge........ and ignore other verses such as 4:6 etc.

    crazyislam,
    a) Asad's is generally accurate, he lived with the Bedouins, had access to many books etc. And what is your point about it being a later translation? Later ---> less credible ---> logical fallacy.

    b) yes Quran could contradict, of course! My point is VERY simple: tafsirs contradict themselves and their interpretation of 65:4 is impossible going by 4:6, and 4:82. Simple. They get out of this by making up their own conditions, not based on Quran of course.

    c) possibly.



    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #38 - August 02, 2011, 06:47 PM

    Emerald,

    Yes, its left to the reader to judge........ and ignore other verses such as 4:6 etc.

    crazyislam,
    a) Asad's is generally accurate, he lived with the Bedouins, had access to many books etc. And what is your point about it being a later translation? Later ---> less credible ---> logical fallacy.

    Don't put words into my mouth please. That was a question.
    Quote
    b) yes Quran could contradict, of course! My point is VERY simple: tafsirs contradict themselves and their interpretation of 65:4 is impossible going by 4:6, and 4:82. Simple. They get out of this by making up their own conditions, not based on Quran of course.

    c) possibly.




    Thanks, so if the quran could have been clearer, is it perfect then?
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #39 - August 02, 2011, 07:12 PM

    It seems you are missing the point. Quran says one thing, Hadith says another.......... thus people seize on this and say "look, Muhammad had sex with a 9yr old!"......

    ....and ignore the variance in Traditional Hadith, and more importantly, ignore the Quran.

    What does Quran say regarding Mo & Aisha?
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #40 - August 03, 2011, 12:41 AM

    crazyislam,

    if it was clearer does not mean imperfect. Its claim is it is clear.

    Its not clear to someone who wishes to legitimise child marriage etc....... i.e. biased.


    Kenan,

    Nothing.

    http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #41 - August 03, 2011, 02:30 AM

    not this AGAIN!

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #42 - August 03, 2011, 03:29 AM

    crazyislam,

    if it was clearer does not mean imperfect. Its claim is it is clear.

    Its not clear to someone who wishes to legitimise child marriage etc....... i.e. biased.


    What? If there's scope for improvement, still it's perfect?

    Well, then the ones who wish to legitimize child marriage could claim the exact opposite, couldn't they? That your interpretation is not correct and theirs is?
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #43 - August 03, 2011, 07:29 AM

    crazyislam,

    if it was clearer does not mean imperfect. Its claim is it is clear.

    Its not clear to someone who wishes to legitimise child marriage etc....... i.e. biased.


    Kenan,

    Nothing.

    Exactly. Hence there is no contradiction vis-a-vis hadiths.
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #44 - August 04, 2011, 11:14 PM

    crazyislam,

    Does Quran claim it is perfect? Where?

    "perfect" is subjective I would think. It goes with other things such as "find contradiction", "compose chapter like it", etc.

    If you think it could be clearer in this case, fair enough. Since I do not grant authority to hadith and tafsir, if I go by Quran only, then it is much clearer to me.

    Much of the rubbish taught as Islam, is from Hadith based tafsir etc.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #45 - August 05, 2011, 08:06 AM

    crazyislam,

    Does Quran claim it is perfect? Where?

    11:1
    Quote
    Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture the revelations whereof are perfected and then expounded. (It cometh) from One Wise, Informed, (Pickthall)


    Quote
    "perfect" is subjective I would think. It goes with other things such as "find contradiction", "compose chapter like it", etc.

    Sure, but according to your favorite translator asad:
    Quote
    Alif. Lam. Ra. A DIVINE WRIT [is this], with messages that have been made clear in and by themselves, and have been distinctly spelled out as well - [bestowed upon you] out of the grace of One who is wise, all-aware.

    There's nothings subjective about the word "clear" now, is there?

    And 18:2 too says that the quran is "unerringly straight" - do you think it is, though?

    Thanks for acknowledging this btw, many muslims often tend to clutch straws whe such arguments are made.  Smiley
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #46 - August 07, 2011, 12:49 PM

    crazyislam,

    You reference 11:1 and then quote two different translations, one with "perfected" one without. The root of the word in question is used 210 times in Quran, with this verb form used twice, and this exact derivative used only once. Not to mention it says "kitab" not "quran" - there are various understandings, about kitab and quran, in case you did not know.
    And lastly, different translators, different translations for this word:
    http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/11/1/default.htm
    You simply referenced the one that said "perfected".

    Thus, your attempted response by referencing 11:1 in order to show Quran says its perfect, is very poorly evidenced and seems like an attempt at deception.
    Will the icing on the cake be you do not admit 11:1 is not much evidence for "Quran is perfect"?


    Asad is not my favourite translator.

    And determining if something is "clear" can be subjective.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #47 - August 07, 2011, 12:51 PM

    crazyislam,

    You reference 11:1 and then quote two different translations, one with "perfected" one without. The root of the word in question is used 210 times in Quran, with this verb form used twice, and this exact derivative used only once. Not to mention it says "kitab" not "quran" - there are various understandings, about kitab and quran, in case you did not know.
    And lastly, different translators, different translations for this word:
    http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/11/1/default.htm
    You simply referenced the one that said "perfected".

    Thus, your attempted response by referencing 11:1 in order to show Quran says its perfect, is very poorly evidenced and seems like an attempt at deception.
    Will the icing on the cake be you do not admit 11:1 is not much evidence for "Quran is perfect"?


    Asad is not my favourite translator.

    And determining if something is "clear" can be subjective.


     WhoMan  Who Cares??

    It doesn't matter 9 or 19 .. WRONG IS WRONG " You are Prophet".. Prophet of Allah..  The Last Prophet or LOST Prophet..., Lost in the Hearsay of Hadith and Quran..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #48 - August 07, 2011, 03:41 PM

    There are several articles about this subject that dispute her age, e.g.

    http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm

    There is some variance in the Hadith, which is very common.


    Side note, please don't host your website on moonfruit, my escorts host on it.
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #49 - August 07, 2011, 04:06 PM

    crazyislam,

    You reference 11:1 and then quote two different translations, one with "perfected" one without. The root of the word in question is used 210 times in Quran, with this verb form used twice, and this exact derivative used only once. Not to mention it says "kitab" not "quran" - there are various understandings, about kitab and quran, in case you did not know.
    And lastly, different translators, different translations for this word:
    http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/11/1/default.htm
    You simply referenced the one that said "perfected".

    Thus, your attempted response by referencing 11:1 in order to show Quran says its perfect, is very poorly evidenced and seems like an attempt at deception.
    Will the icing on the cake be you do not admit 11:1 is not much evidence for "Quran is perfect"?


    Asad is not my favourite translator.

    And determining if something is "clear" can be subjective.


    What! Are you kidding me? You asked me to refer to Asad earlier, and said that he's generally good. There are other verses too, which uses the words "detailed" etc, which I demonstrated it's NOT. 

    Ibn Kathir, Al JalalaynAl WahidiIbn 'Abbâs, Uthaymeen, Abu'l-A'ala Maududi, Usmani ALL agree that the verse means that quran permits to have sex with premenarchial girls. I've just provided you supplimentary evidence 11:1, 41:1 (which again says the same thing, the word used is fussilat, which means explained in detail). Now had this been one or two scholars, I'd not have much of a case, but ALL MAJOR SCHOLARS, no matter what you think about them, clearly says that the verse refers to young girls. Either they knew nothing about Arabic, or they all got it wrong, which mean IT WAS EXTREMELY VAGUE. Detailed is subjective, not to the extend that it means the EXACT OPPOSITE.
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #50 - August 07, 2011, 04:30 PM

    Quote
    Asad's is generally accurate, he lived with the Bedouins, had access to many books etc.

     
    ..............
    crazyislam,
    Asad is not my favourite translator.

    What! Are you kidding me? You asked me to refer to Asad earlier, and said that he's generally good.  ............


    Asad.. Asad..  A sad story..

    Asad Mental.,

    Asad fool and

    Asad dumb

    I like His son better...

     I wish that Juice was alive ..Leopold Weiss turned in to  Leopard weasel  without  using any of his brains..


    That is what happens when you roam around deserts and don't use your own brain..

    But I tell you guys this My good friend  AhmedBahgat Translation is far better than any existing translation.  This is NOT because he smart ass but he using all the available translations and he is also good in Arabic language..     Off course he still learns Arabic language from some Bedouin guy living Bahrain  that too on net..  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #51 - August 08, 2011, 12:10 AM

    1. In many places the quran tells people to follow the example of muhammed

    Quran 4:80
    He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).

    Quran 33:21
    Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.

    Quran 59:7
    And whatsoever the messen

    2. All hadith were written around 100yrs after muhammed died. The majority of islam IS hadith so to scrap all hadith leaves a very confusing and vague book

    3. Muslims translate the quran freely. They translate it to fit into whatever they like. In a discussion between Tzortzis and Professor Myer the discussion of the foetal development in quran arose from the muslims to show the quran must be divine since how did Muhammed know? The answer, this was said in more detail by Aristotle and Galen. The muslims insisted- they listed the phases: the clot, the chewed flesh, the bones and then the flesh
    Myers retorted that in fact the bones and flesh form simultaneously

    The muslim then responded that 'actually the word in the quran can be translated to mean simultaneous and not after so even then the quran is right!
    This just shows the level of ignorance- that the quran doesn't contain scientific fact but is instead translated around science, to fit science!

    4. You wish to convince people that islam is correct yet even islamic scholars can't reach concensus of what is and what isn't islam. So you expect people to accept that god went to the trouble of communicating his desires to humanity only to do so in such a vague way that leaves so much room for interpretation that the entire message is rendered pointless. The quran varses can be translated to allow anything at all! How perposterous!
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #52 - August 08, 2011, 12:30 AM

    Quote
    This just shows the level of ignorance- that the quran doesn't contain scientific fact but is instead translated around science, to fit science!


    Exactly, it's not that difficult to interpret verses containing vague descriptions and an ambiguous use of language, so that they seem to 'fit' scientific theories.

    The idea that vague and ambiguous verses from the Quran are the equivalent to specific detailed scientific theories is confirmation bias, pure and simple.
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #53 - August 14, 2011, 02:29 PM

    crazyislam,

    Thanks for demonstrating you are disingenuous.

    And thanks for demonstrating that scholars say one thing for one verse and another for another verse, i.e. contradiction.

    One might even say, far from being unambiguous, Quran exposes such people by forcing them to contradict themselves.

    If you, or anyone, wants to follow contradicting opinions, feel free.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #54 - August 14, 2011, 02:48 PM

    Saffire,

    You have simply regurgitated what is commonly said by Traditional Muslims.

    Let me respond:

    1) following the example of the messenger, does not equate to following what Bukhari et al. said he said and did etc. The hadith is filled with contradictions, errors etc.
    There are numerous examples in Quran about what the messenger did and said. The messenger's example is clear for all to read. Quran also says follow Abraham's example, should Muslims search for Abraham's hadith - if you are applying consistency to your view that is.

    2) Please quote the source that says that "all hadith were written around 100yrs after Muhammad's death" and give us links to the extant scripts.
    The very fact you say this tells me you have did almost zero research yourself.

    3) Thanks for the baseless statements. I prefer what some refer to as an "evidence-based approach" - perhaps you have heard of it.
    You claim that "thumma" (the Arabic word you seemingly refer to) cannot mean simultaneous, but fail to consider that Classical Arabic dictionaries written many hundreds of years ago clearly state that it can mean this - so are you implying, they had the foresight to make-up it could mean such a thing because they secretly knew Quran was "wrong" when it came to embryology?

    4) Your statement simply shows you have no idea of my view. Let me make it clear for you:

    "Islam" as many know it today is based primarily on culture/tradition/Hadith, and not Quran. Hadith were rejected as an authority by early muslims, they were collected and burned by Caliphs (this is stated even in their own Traditional Islamic history), bans were in place, peaople jailed for spreading them etc etc etc.

    I am a deist, who considers Quran based islam as the most logical option, if one were to choose a system to follow.

    What vast majority of members here seem to have rejected is Traditional Islam, and their arguments may be good against that version, but when it comes to arguments against Quran itself, they are far far weaker. That is not to say, they have no merit whatsoever, just that they are weaker.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #55 - August 14, 2011, 06:05 PM

    Your response is empty and clears nothing. The fact is you wish to convince us that the quran is god's word- that alone is perposterous. To suggest that 'God' decided to convey a message for the world to the least likely individual in the most remote location in the world- that too in a language that is so obscure and vague- over the course of 1400 or so years parts of which are lost and much of which is ambiguous (scholars can not even say what some words mean e.g. alif laam meem). That you wish us to accept that this 'God' ensured his/her message was written down in such a way as to be open to interpretation so much so that even ardent islamic scholars argue and debate about what the meaning is!

    The fact is you are a classic example of a muslim- your intellience and logic makes you see that there is much within this Islam that defies logic and sense so instead of realising the obvious fact that it's NOT from god you choose to foolishly pick and choose which aspects suit your sensibilities, follow interpretations and explanations that suit your personal agenda ignoring the fact that the very fact the quran and islam has so much division of belief is due to the fact the book was written by a man and is therefore not correct or timeless!

    Regarding your assimilation of what I said, this clearly shows hoow you fail to understand basic information. For example, the topic re the foetal formation- you ignore the fact that it's not amazing new knowledge, in fact the description in the quran is exactly what one qould expect from an illiterate- this is akin to today's taxi driver who will be able to vaguely tell about all things (due to listening to people/radio/etc) but lacks any depth of knowledge. You fail to acknowledge how the quran and it's language is so ambiguous that the interpretations are selected to fit science- that science does not prove the quran but rather that the quran is interpreted to fit science. You instead ignorantly confirm the ambiguity of the arabic language? How foolish you are.

    Finally, that a person like you is on this site is really ignorant- you arrogantly assume anyone who leaves islam is not as intelligent as you? Not as learned? Hasn't researched? Doesn't have the faculty to think? You think you can come here and tell us things and we're going to say 'oh wow, you're so smart! I never knew that! Islam is the best and only true religion. I'm going to wear a shroud and find heaven beneath my husbands foot, dedicate my life to servitude as the inferior female that I am'- Idiot.
    Many people who leave islam do so after years of study and careful consideration, often at a great personal loss of family and friends.
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #56 - August 14, 2011, 06:21 PM

    Also, I actually didn't scrutinise hadith when I researched islam- in fact I made sure to ascertain the validity of islam by looking at the quran. The perposterous and laughable thing about your assertion that arguments against the quran are weak is ignorant to say the least.

    The fact is even muslim scholars know that the quran is so vague and ambiguous that without the hadith the quran makes no sense for the main part since it is so open to interpretation. In addition, there are so many errors within the quran of a scientific and factual nature that the very idea that it's a divine book is an idiotic idea. In addition the quran and islam in general make statements that the religion DOES NOT back up- one of my faves is that in islam women are equal- reminds me of the quote in animal farm- all animals are equal but some are more equal than others!

    The quran repeatedly shows how islam regards women as inferior which is disproven by FACT. How islam considers women intellectually inferior which is disproven by FACT. How quran regards women as incapable of taking care of themselves so must be under the care of men which is disproven by FACT. The quran asserts that men are the protectors of women which REALITY shows is perposterous since men in general are cruel, manipulative, vindictive etc and are not the magnanimous caretakers as islam purports. The quran asserts that men are all ruled by lust which is disproven by FACT. The quran asserts that sex is for men, not once mentioning that women have rights in this regard or desires- in fact the quran says clearly that a wife must give the husband sex as soon as he demands it regardless of what she's doing (ignoring the fact that women have a choice!)- in addition islam permits free sex- with men being permitted up to 4 sex partners at any one time in addition to sex slaves which the quran supports.

    The quran is a funny book and if it was truly divine would show that:
    1. God is so stupid he/she couldn't even convey a message clearly
    2. God created women to be inferior- the fact women are not inferior means god made a mistake
    3. God makes mistakes
    4. God feeds off prayer and worship
    5. God is a cruel and vindictive character who makes pointless rules etc and threatens punishments that serve no purpose
    6. God is dead since if god was real and did create the book etc 1400 yrs ago then where is he/she now?
    7. God is lame- he/she purposefully created confusion then punishes people who get confused! He/she showed the world the truth but deliberately in such an obscure way that belief requires faith and not facts but then this same god says the book is fact when there are no straight forward indisputable facts.

    Conclusion- if god is real then your interpretation of him/her is an insult

  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #57 - August 14, 2011, 06:26 PM

    Saffire you just became one of my favourite members... beautiful Cry
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #58 - August 14, 2011, 07:00 PM

    Saffire,

    Note how you dodge my question and state no evidence whatsoever for the claims you made, e.g. "all hadith were written around 100yrs after Muhammad's death".

    And for the record, I did not say embryology information was not known before. Not only did I not say this in this thread, I have never claimed such a thing in any thread. Thanks for giving us the logical fallacy known as strawman argument.


    Strangestdude,

    Your post implies you liked Saffire's post. Perhaps you can quote for me where evidence was actually provided.


    NB:
    Evidence: The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #59 - August 14, 2011, 10:02 PM

    Your post implies you liked Saffire's post. Perhaps you can quote for me where evidence was actually provided.


    If you focus on that, you're missing the points she was making. I admit her style is aggressive, but she articulates some damn good points IMO - I'd advise you to re-read them.

    And I didn't simply enjoy it as a response to you, but also as a passionate response to common muslim arguments.  Cry

    Personally (and this isn't an argument, I'm simply sharing my perspective) I think you find beauty in the poetry of the Quran, and interpret the Quran to fit your own values. I'm not sure why. Were you born into a muslim family?

    I came across a familiar approach to your own via Jeffrey Lang when I was a muslim desperately trying to cling to my faith. But I simply didn't feel comfortable cycling through interpretations until I found one that Quasi-fit my values, or didn't abhor me morally. I saw beauty in Islam and desperately tried to cling to it. I still see beauty in Islam, but since I left Islam it's personally clear to me that many sincere muslims are bending over backwards to try to interpret the Quran in a way they don't find morally and intellectually abhorrent.

    For instance there are numerous verses stating that human beings will be tortured mercilessly in hell, by the same God that is called omnibenevolent and yet chose to bring human beings into existence knowing they would be tortured mercilessly in hell. What is your view on those verses, and that apparent contradictory behaviour?

    I don't understand why you think God would produce a universal message for mankind that (according to you) can only be truly understood if read in 7th century Arabic. God knew that the vast majority of human beings wouldn't even know 7th century arabic, even the vast majority of muslims can't converse in 7th century Arabic. A very small fraction of the human population know 7th century Arabic to the point that they can converse in it, do you? How can that fit the criteria of a universal message for mankind?

    In terms of 'holy books' open to interpretation I prefer the Bhagavad Gita to the Quran, have you read it?
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