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 Topic: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"

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  • "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     OP - June 14, 2011, 03:39 PM

    As claimed by the Quran-only Muslim youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/QuranVsHadith

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSM9XZhtFW0

    Hadihters insist that Ayesha was 9 when Mohammad Married her..this is contrary to ALL availble data.. from the QURAN , History as well as 100s of HADITH which says that Ayesha was somewhere between 18 and 23..
    Why do HADITHERS INSIST on MOHAMMAD being a PEDOPHILE..
    Here is the reason why

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #1 - June 14, 2011, 04:59 PM

    I agree she wasn't 9 when she got married.  She was 6.

    .
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #2 - June 14, 2011, 05:19 PM

    So Muslims should abolish the hadith! It's full of lies obviously.... piggy

    Religion is organized superstition
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #3 - June 21, 2011, 10:35 PM

    There are several articles about this subject that dispute her age, e.g.

    http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm

    There is some variance in the Hadith, which is very common.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #4 - June 27, 2011, 04:31 AM

    Didn't it say she was playing with dolls with Muhammad met her, and thus picked her out to be his wife. Despite when he made the marriage official or not, it's still sick to think he had his eye on her before hand. >_>;

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #5 - June 27, 2011, 04:43 AM

    Wait.....you can actually be a Muslim without believing the hadiths??? I'm so using that approach with my family and friends grin12

  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #6 - June 27, 2011, 05:37 AM

    Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed (sic – consummated) that marriage when she was nine years old.
     
    Sahih Bukhari 5:58:236
     

    Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
     
    Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64
     

    Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'
     
    Sahih Bukhari 7:62:65
     

    Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

    Sahih Bukhari 7:62:88
     

    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

    Abu Dawud 41:4915


    `A´isha Bint Abu Bakr: Muhammad married her in the month of Shawwal, three years before the Migration, ten years after he claimed prophethood, according to the tradition of `A´isha herself. He had intercourse with her in the month of Shawwal, eight months after the Migration. She was the only virgin among Muhammad's wives.
     
    Tabaqat Ibn Sa`d, 8:58; Ansab al-ashraf, 1:410.
     

    Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."
     
    Abu Dawud 2:2116
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #7 - June 28, 2011, 11:18 PM

    Wait.....you can actually be a Muslim without believing the hadiths??? I'm so using that approach with my family and friends grin12



    Well, rejection or limitation of Traditional Hadith in islamic history is very common, e.g. al kalam, mutazilite. Interestingly, Shafii who is perhaps the most famous jurist of them all, dedicated an entire work to refuting those who rejected the Hadith. Islamic History itself shows rejection of hadith was very common hence the fierce opposition to it.

    See the works:
    "Hadith as Scripture" by Aisha Musa
    or
    "The Muslim Opposition to the writing of Hadith" by Michael Cook.
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/52181511/The-Muslim-opposition-to-the-writing-of-hadith-in-early-Islam-by-Michael-Cook

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #8 - July 28, 2011, 02:51 AM

    I gotta say, although this is one of the most common things used to attack Islam with I always say you have to consider what was the norm back then.

    Was this the norm or not? I don't really know but I am thinking yes.
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #9 - July 28, 2011, 03:11 AM

    Shit all I can think of during the first part of that video is that they ruined one of my favorite pieces of classical music.  Cry

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #10 - July 29, 2011, 11:29 PM

    I gotta say, although this is one of the most common things used to attack Islam with I always say you have to consider what was the norm back then.

    Was this the norm or not? I don't really know but I am thinking yes.



    Be it the norm or no, Mu claimed to be a man of God, a messenger sent and inspired by the almighty..

    Now this good man chosen by God to be his messenger and last messenger to deliver the last message from the divine as he claimed,

    simply drilled a 9 y/o kid!...how on Earth didn't his God scold him? Why couldn't Jibreel stop him and enlighten him;


    why didn't his Allah simply tell him, "my man, your ppl do this all the time, it's wrong I can tell you, you do not do it, and must command Muslims to stop it, for it harms the kid both physically and mentally; and I know better dude..!!"


    I know why, cuz Mu simply had no revelation whatsoever..!


    'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was six years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)


    'A'isha reported that she used to PLAY WITH DOLLS in the presence of Allah's Messenger and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah's Messenger whereas Allah's Messenger sent them to her. (Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5981)







    If that was the norm, this never exonerates Mu. Applying same logic, (Muslims and apologetics) can also defend Mu and justify his actions, had he practiced female infanticide for example, which was perfectly fine at the time.!



    Check that out, http://www.forwarduk.org.uk/key-issues/child-marriage



     

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #11 - July 30, 2011, 02:04 PM

    It seems you are missing the point. Quran says one thing, Hadith says another.......... thus people seize on this and say "look, Muhammad had sex with a 9yr old!"......

    ....and ignore the variance in Traditional Hadith, and more importantly, ignore the Quran.


    The only way out of the contradiction is to say Aisha was adolescent and had a sound mind at X years old.

    X being the age you think she got married. I assume in this case most would opt for 9.


    Then ask yourself, is marrying someone who is adolescent and of sound mind wrong? That's the more legitimate question.


    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #12 - July 30, 2011, 04:01 PM


    The only way out of the contradiction is to say Aisha was adolescent and had a sound mind at X years old.

    X being the age you think she got married. I assume in this case most would opt for 9.


    Then ask yourself, is marrying someone who is adolescent and of sound mind wrong? That's the more legitimate question.


    Whoman,

    Don't assume that most would opt for 9. By the way, do you think premenarchial girls have a sound mind?
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #13 - July 30, 2011, 04:28 PM

    It seems you are missing the point. Quran says one thing, Hadith says another.......... thus people seize on this and say "look, Muhammad had sex with a 9yr old!"......

    ....and ignore the variance in Traditional Hadith, and more importantly, ignore the Quran.


    The only way out of the contradiction is to say Aisha was adolescent and had a sound mind at X years old.

    X being the age you think she got married. I assume in this case most would opt for 9.


    Then ask yourself, is marrying someone who is adolescent and of sound mind wrong? That's the more legitimate question.




    Then answer this... if she was prepubescent, then he was a perv.

    HOWEVER!!! If she had started her menses, WHY was she still
    playing with dolls at Mo's place?  Hmmm? 

    So either HE was a perv, or SHE was an idolater with Mo's approval.

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #14 - July 30, 2011, 04:34 PM

    Then answer this... if she was prepubescent, then he was a perv.

    HOWEVER!!! If she had started her menses, WHY was she still
    playing with dolls at Mo's place?  Hmmm? 

    So either HE was a perv, or SHE was an idolater with Mo's approval.


    +1

    And she also didn't know what was going on, as it is reported that her mother called her aside while she was playing with her dolls and other girls, telling her that she was going to live with the prophet from now on .. and she was dressed up by her mother. Does this not contradict that she was an adolescent if she was still dressed and fed by her mother? Roll Eyes
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #15 - July 30, 2011, 04:48 PM

    At whoman, no I'm addressing the point of marrying kids being the norm etc.

    As for quranists, they don't do hadiths. So when they don't blv that Mu married a 9 y/o GuRL then they have a point;

    Yet, they can't base that on other traditional hadiths and athaar, for it's known that bukhari and muslim are most authenticated.


    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #16 - July 30, 2011, 05:19 PM

    I gotta say, although this is one of the most common things used to attack Islam with I always say you have to consider what was the norm back then.

    Was this the norm or not? I don't really know but I am thinking yes.

    There are at least three issues with such position.

    1.Muhammad is Al-Insān al-Kāmil - the perfect example of a man for all mankind and for all times. His conduct is to be imitated whenever possible.
    Why do you think that countries that base their laws on Sharia have no age of consent. For example KSA or Qatar have no restriction on the age of marriage, however any kind of sexual activity outside marriage is illegal. Therefore marrying and raping a nine year old girl is perfectly OK as long as you are married to her. For instance, in 2008 a Saudi court refused to annul a marriage between an 8 year old girl and a 58 year old man. How could they? It's Sunnah after all.

    Child Marriage - Yemen:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_ompypIwBM

    2. Another issue is the fact that we are talking about the alleged prophet of god here. Allah insisted on some silly dietary prohibitions but forgot to mention that shagging a nine year old is a no no? Seriously?

    3. Even if you consider the fact that things were probably different back then and that Mo wasn't really a prophet of god the issue of him having sex with a nine year old still remains.
    You see, a man usually has to have an erection in order to have sex. In order to have an erection was has to be physically and emotionally attracted to one's partner. If you were to put Rafael Nadal (apparently he is the best looking guy on the planet atm) in my bed I wouldn't be able to have sex with him. I simply do not find mind physically attractive. In a similar fashion I wouldn't be able to have sex with a nine year old. Because I do not find prepubescent girls attractive either. no attraction = no erection = no sex
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #17 - July 30, 2011, 05:24 PM

    If anyone could look like an elf or smurf its  Rafael Nadal lol.


    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #18 - July 31, 2011, 05:13 PM

    crazyislam,

    Quote
    By the way, do you think premenarchial girls have a sound mind?


    Generally no.
    If you are going to refer to 65:4, I will pre-empt you and ask you read the tafsirs of 65:4 and 4:6 and enjoy all the contradictions of these so-called "scholars". They seemed to try and justify a prevalent practice of the time/region or perhaps desires, but failed to take into account what else Quran says.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #19 - July 31, 2011, 05:18 PM

    Jinn and Tonic,

    Quote
    Then answer this... if she was prepubescent, then he was a perv.

    HOWEVER!!! If she had started her menses, WHY was she still
    playing with dolls at Mo's place?  Hmmm? 

    So either HE was a perv, or SHE was an idolater with Mo's approval.


    In case you do not know my view, I consider Hadith a mix of truth and falsehood and reject them as authoritative (like the earliest Muslims), but anyways I will respond to you....

    So, when one starts menses they are physically incapable of playing with dolls?
    Or are you implying there was an Arab law in place that as soon as menses start, one cannot play with dolls?

    Can you provide any Quran verse that says playing with dolls or similar is equivalent to being an idolater?



    Thanks.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #20 - July 31, 2011, 05:23 PM

    Zaiba,

    Quote
    Does this not contradict that she was an adolescent if she was still dressed and fed by her mother?


    Being dressed and fed is not exclusive to pre-adolescents.

    But in any case, it is irrelevant, because what I am saying is Quran says one thing, Hadith says another.
    Your reasoning implies you wish to over-rule Quran with Hadith. That's fine, you are entitled to such a view, but that has absolutely nothing to do with saying Quran permits pre-adolescent sex or marriage etc.

    I thought I was clear in my earlier post, but here it is again:

    Quote
    It seems you are missing the point. Quran says one thing, Hadith says another.......... thus people seize on this and say "look, Muhammad had sex with a 9yr old!"......

    ....and ignore the variance in Traditional Hadith, and more importantly, ignore the Quran.


    The only way out of the contradiction is to say Aisha was adolescent and had a sound mind at X years old.

    X being the age you think she got married. I assume in this case most would opt for 9.


    Then ask yourself, is marrying someone who is adolescent and of sound mind wrong? That's the more legitimate question.


    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #21 - July 31, 2011, 05:27 PM

    Emerald,

    Quote
    Yet, they can't base that on other traditional hadiths and athaar, for it's known that bukhari and muslim are most authenticated.


    AFAIK Quranists consider Hadith Bukhari and Muslim as a mix of truth and falsehood and not authoritative............... just like the earliest Muslims.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/52181127/The-opponents-to-the-writing-of-tradition-in-early-islam-michael-cook


    And as for Bukhari and Muslim being "most authenticated", that is the common position TODAY, but did you know for example Bukhari and Muslim's Hadith collections were not accepted originally. For various reasons. Its all there for anyone to read in Traditional Islamic history.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #22 - July 31, 2011, 05:45 PM

    crazyislam,

    Generally no.
    If you are going to refer to 65:4, I will pre-empt you and ask you read the tafsirs of 65:4 and 4:6 and enjoy all the contradictions of these so-called "scholars". They seemed to try and justify a prevalent practice of the time/region or perhaps desires, but failed to take into account what else Quran says.


    Quote
    Both Yusuf Ali and Pickthal render the phrase of "marriageable age"/"age of marriage", whereas Shakir says "attain puberty", the actual word used is Nikah which literally translated means "fuck" [10] . Zuwaj [11] is the correct word for marriage in Arabic, but the Qur'an uses both words in reference to marrying women; Nikah for human females and Zuwaj for the Houris. This means that Shakir's translation of "attain puberty" is not correct, as the actual word being translated is used regarding marriage and has nothing to do with puberty.
     
    Furthermore, this verse is not even discussing marriage; it's talking about those who have guardianship over male orphans; that when they judge them to be mentally mature enough, they should give over their property to them. The verse simply says that you can start testing them for this maturity when they reach "marriageable age" - it does not specify that age. The Tafsir's agree with this understanding of 4:6:

     
    Read with citations at:
    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Pedophilia_in_the_Qur'an#The_Qur.27an_prohibits_marriage_to_pre-pubescent_females

    Even if you deny all this, do you agree that the Quran could have been clearer about this?
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #23 - July 31, 2011, 06:10 PM

    crazyislam,

    Quote
    Even if you deny all this...


    Deny what? I didn't see a counter argument.

    I recommend you read this (the bit about what Quran says):
    http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm

    Then once you do, let me know your thoughts, then I will answer:

    Quote
    ...do you agree that the Quran could have been clearer about this?



    A little tip, when trying to determine the truth, I recommend not reading a site so obviously biased. Ideally, read both FOR and AGAINST, and use your reason of course.  Smiley

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #24 - July 31, 2011, 09:43 PM

    mohammed fucked kids

    there's nothing else further to discuss
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #25 - August 01, 2011, 03:17 AM

    crazyislam,

    Deny what? I didn't see a counter argument.

    I recommend you read this (the bit about what Quran says):
    http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/muhammad-married-young-girl.htm

    Then once you do, let me know your thoughts, then I will answer:


    A little tip, when trying to determine the truth, I recommend not reading a site so obviously biased. Ideally, read both FOR and AGAINST, and use your reason of course.  Smiley


    Yeah, bet you didn't, I'm shocked. You refer to 4:6, this at best, shows that quran contradicts itself, doesn't it? Or, since they all got it wrong (if that's what you're saying), then surely an omnipotent god could've done a far better job than this to deliver his message to humanity?
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #26 - August 01, 2011, 06:22 AM

    crazyislam,

    Quote
    You refer to 4:6, this at best, shows that quran contradicts itself, doesn't it?


    Nope. You are confusing Quran contradiction with Tafsir contradiction.

    Quote
    Or, since they all got it wrong (if that's what you're saying), then surely an omnipotent god could've done a far better job than this to deliver his message to humanity?


    Depends if the omnipotent god delivered his message to an audience wanting to justify marrying young girls or not.

    Quran says X, twist it to mean Y........... erm, forget about the contraction it might cause...... and erm, forget about 4:82....... we wanna marry some young chicks....... etc.


    It's all there for everyone to see.  grin12

    I assume by your admission of "You refer to 4:6, this at best, shows that quran contradicts itself, doesn't it?" you are implying Quran seems to rule out pre-puberty marriage. This is what I've been saying all along.

    So I repeat: is marrying someone who is adolescent and of sound mind wrong? That's the more legitimate question.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #27 - August 01, 2011, 08:27 AM

    crazyislam,

    Nope. You are confusing Quran contradiction with Tafsir contradiction.

    Depends if the omnipotent god delivered his message to an audience wanting to justify marrying young girls or not.

    Quran says X, twist it to mean Y........... erm, forget about the contraction it might cause...... and erm, forget about 4:82....... we wanna marry some young chicks....... etc.


    It's all there for everyone to see.  grin12

    I assume by your admission of "You refer to 4:6, this at best, shows that quran contradicts itself, doesn't it?" you are implying Quran seems to rule out pre-puberty marriage. This is what I've been saying all along.

    So I repeat: is marrying someone who is adolescent and of sound mind wrong? That's the more legitimate question.


    No don't assume stuff, I'm saying even if you ignore that, you still have another hurdle.
    Can you give me the accurate translation of the verse with arabic words and transliteration? I hope it won't be hard since you know arabic.
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #28 - August 01, 2011, 09:57 AM

    what verse?

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #29 - August 01, 2011, 10:13 AM

    65:4 and 4:6 please.
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