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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins

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  • Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     OP - June 07, 2011, 11:33 AM
    This was at the World Atheist Convention in Dublin last weekend.

    It begins with Hamza Tzortzis speaking to PZ Myers
    At 29:10mins Adnan Rashid responds to Maryam Namazie
    At 32:32mins Hamza Tzortzis speaks to Richard Dawkins

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T5Pm7qLH50

    I haven't actually watched it fully yet (just skimmed through it) but I've been reading Hamza's Tweets and he's been boasting about this confrontation he had with Dawkins...
    .
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #1 - June 07, 2011, 11:43 AM
    Hamza Tzortzis is dodgy and clever guy. His main tactic is name-dropping and bombarding his opponent(s) with references, ergo they wont have time to double check it.

    I have heard this guy saying that its capital punishment for blasphemy according to islam.

    How can you take this guy serious?

    And he is also just repeating William Lane Craigs kalam-argument.
    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #2 - June 07, 2011, 11:50 AM
    From the clip:

    Only 17 people could read and write?

    LOL!  Cheesy

    Thats why Quraish tribe had a lot of successful businesspeople.
    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #3 - June 07, 2011, 11:54 AM
    Quote from: Al-Ma`arri on June 07, 2011, 11:43 AM
    Hamza Tzortzis is dodgy and clever guy.

    That fellow is  no clever guy HE IS A FOOL..., A brainless and brain washed fool

    he says "Quran asks you to use the brain" that may be true but he is not using it ., more over no religious scripture says "DO NOT USE YOUR BRAIN"

     In fact Quran is the only the  silly book that says "It is word of allah/god whatever and  in many places it says "when it comes to allah and its messenger "DO NOT USE YOUR BRAIN but believe it.. period"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyQheMaQXM8
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #4 - June 07, 2011, 12:08 PM
    yeezevee:

    With clever i mean in a negative way.

    By the way the other Muslim guy (the historian from London) is lying when he says The Great Flood/Noahs Ark is not mentioned in the Quran.
    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #5 - June 07, 2011, 12:16 PM
    Quote from: Al-Ma`arri on June 07, 2011, 12:08 PM
    yeezevee:

    With clever i mean in a negative way.

    By the way the other Muslim guy (the historian from London) is lying when he says The Great Flood/Noahs Ark is not mentioned in the Quran.

    Thank you for informing that., I think this fellow needs and independent thread here if possible drag him here..  Let us what we can do on this Islamic intellectual..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #6 - June 07, 2011, 12:21 PM
    This guys more annoying than Zakir Naik. He's clever in that he can twist words and arguments in his favor. He also talks fast, but his main arguments and reasoning are flawed just like all Muslims. I'd like to verse myself on theislammiricles videos and bombard him with those arguments if I had the chance.
    Join us on chat. Click here.
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #7 - June 07, 2011, 12:40 PM
    Quote from: zooby on June 07, 2011, 12:21 PM
    . He also talks fast,

    That is O.k.,  talk is Cheap.. So we should take his words and write..write.. and write., Write Quran about him dear zooby.,

     That is ONLY THE WAY TO CUT THESE GUYS IN TO THEIR SIZE..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #8 - June 07, 2011, 01:39 PM
    Tzortzis, may have touched upon a lot of credible works in reference to his his argument, however I am not convinced Islam is true. He is essentially says that Allah is transcendent meaning that he exists outside of existence nothing by definition can exist outside of existence it is a paradox, moreover it is also contradictory in that,  Allah does show that he has emotions, which are human-like such as, angry, mercy, jealousy etc, these are all human emotions created by chemical reactions in the human brain, if Allah was truly transcendent then he would not use these emotions to describe himself. You can't have it both ways.     
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #9 - June 07, 2011, 02:17 PM
    Without watching the videos one problem is that the main figureheads such as P.Z. and Dawkins are biologists not philosophers.  So when theological philosophers confront them, it is on uneven ground.  Dawkins and P.Z., for instance, both can run circles around those religious scholars when it comes to pointing out that the Abrahamic methologies do not accuratly represent the biological history as we know it, but when it comes to philosophy its not their field.
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #10 - June 07, 2011, 02:31 PM
    After watching 15 minutes for so. I told you so.  Cosmology, epistamology etc which P.Z.may have knowledge of but it's not his forte.  It is kind of his and dawkins fault for putting themselves out there, but I can't really fault them for sometimes avoiding the philosophical debates and steering towards their own field of biology and known evidence vs. religious mythology.
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #11 - June 07, 2011, 02:42 PM
    Also the science in the quran thing again  Roll Eyes
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #12 - June 07, 2011, 02:56 PM
    What really annoys me is that the form of "dawah" used by individuals like Hamza and Dr Zakir Naik where the unfortunate victim is encouraged to accept Islam on the "reasonable" grounds of "rational", "scientific" and "philosophical" discourse is in fact looked down upon by orthodoxy, whether that be the literalistic Salafi tradition or the esoteric tree hugging Sufi tradition, i think Aronra got it spot on, Islam by in large requires you to follow a set of dogmatic nonsensical beliefs on no sound basis, and in failing to do so would mean being subjected to grotesque never ending punishment, oh and one more thing which i've seen more commonly these days is the new tactic employed of feigning ignorance when it comes to topics like evolution, individuals like Adam Deen and Hamza are able to spend years studying Islam and rehashing other peoples defunct and discredited arguments, but surprisingly haven't been able to find the time or attain the necessary resources needed to come to some sort of conclusion on the creation v evolution debate, i'm sorry no one is buying your bullshit, just come out of your magical closet and nail your creationist flag to your batshit crazy mast.
    I make it rain - apparently?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh_I19_mKkU&list=SP1665576E7498BAB7&index=2&feature=plcp
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #13 - June 07, 2011, 03:09 PM
    Well the rational and reasonable qualifiers for a lot of professional Muslim apologists actually come from William Lane Craig who asserts ( sometimes ) two things.  1.  It is reasonable to accept Christianity and 2. Atheism is irrational.  You'll hear dawaganists use almost the same phrases and form of language as WLC because a lot of it is lifted off of him with little Islamic assertions added in.  It's been moved from X religion is absolutely true to an easier X is reasonable to accept as true.
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #14 - June 07, 2011, 03:19 PM
    Quote from: deusvult on June 07, 2011, 03:09 PM
    Well the rational and reasonable qualifiers for a lot of professional Muslim apologists actually come from William Lane Craig who asserts ( sometimes ) two things.  1.  It is reasonable to accept Christianity and 2. Atheism is irrational.  You'll hear dawaganists use almost the same phrases and form of language as WLC because a lot of it is lifted off of him with little Islamic assertions added in.  It's been moved from X religion is absolutely true to an easier X is reasonable to accept as true.

    I remember once when i was speaking to an old mate of mine and i asked him about using such an approach and whether Islam allowed it, all he said to me was that back in the prophets time all they did was to call the people to tawheed and it was enough for them, we use the same approach today and if they aren't convinced by it then they can go to hell!
    I make it rain - apparently?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh_I19_mKkU&list=SP1665576E7498BAB7&index=2&feature=plcp
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #15 - June 07, 2011, 04:08 PM
    On the question of the history of Shariah, I really don't see the questioner's point.  The first part is lol at day poor religions getting beat up by the bully of atheism.  It's important to not resort to demogogery and not use force to "eradicate" religion ( its not possible to do anyways) and its important to not resort to demonization and demogogery and say all religion in all forms forever is evil.  Atheists should recognize the accomplishments of various religions but such acknowledgment does not equal wholesale acceptance of an ideology.  How does demanding that non Muslims wear different clothes help scientific discovery? Pushing non Muslims off the side of the road? etc.  We can take the good and leave the bad.  

    A nice retort would have been, " most of this enlightment knowledge was spread though direct contact with Muslims though the Crusades and the fall of the Andalusian empire.  Now some Muslims call the war on Iraq and Afghanistan " Crusades".  Do you support these wars in order to further enlighten mankind?

    ( I know it's not intellectually sound, but the idea is break the implicate link between historical facts and present advocacy of a whole ideology.)
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #16 - June 07, 2011, 04:14 PM
    It's funny that those guys don't even know their own religious book.

    1: The Quran DOES mirror the Aristotle belief that humans are made by mixing semen and menstrual blood - it clearly says that we are made from two fluids mixed.

    2: Noah's flood is in the Quran, with waves as high as mountains.

    3: The Quran does say that all humans descend from "a single soul and his wife" (Adam and Eve.)

    4: The Quran doesn't say that mountain roots steady the mountain, it says that mountains steady the Earth.

    I posted my "5 minute miracle" debunk on "Mountains steady the Earth" as a video response - I wonder if they will accept it?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZzz1WGCrv4
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #17 - June 07, 2011, 04:18 PM
    IERA, who compiled this video, didn't include any of Maryam Namazie's speech or her response to Adnan Rashid.  I want to hear!
    .
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #18 - June 07, 2011, 04:21 PM
    What author did he mention in regards to roots of mountains?
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #19 - June 07, 2011, 04:21 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on June 07, 2011, 04:14 PM
    It's funny that those guys don't even know their own religious book.

    1: The Quran DOES mirror the Aristotle belief that humans are made by mixing semen and menstrual blood - it clearly says that we are made from two fluids mixed.

    2: Noah's flood is in the Quran, with waves as high as mountains.

    3: The Quran does say that all humans descend from "a single soul and his wife" (Adam and Eve.)

    4: The Quran doesn't say that mountain roots steady the mountain, it says that mountains steady the Earth.

    I posted my "5 minute miracle" debunk on "Mountains steady the Earth" as a video response - I wonder if they will accept it?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZzz1WGCrv4


    Are you saying that they are denying points 2 & 3 in the video? i haven't seen the full-length video yet.
    I make it rain - apparently?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh_I19_mKkU&list=SP1665576E7498BAB7&index=2&feature=plcp
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #20 - June 07, 2011, 04:23 PM
    Quote from: Nilly on June 07, 2011, 04:21 PM
    Are you saying that they are denying points 2 & 3 in the video? i haven't seen the full-length video yet.


    That is correct.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #21 - June 07, 2011, 07:43 PM
    Too bad Hamza, too bad..  Roll Eyes
    Besides, the Qur'an DOES talk about Nuh having a rebellious son he thought he could escape God's wrath by climbing up to a high mountain, but drowned anyway. How come Hamza could deny the obvious global scale of this imaginary flood as described by the Qur'an?
    I shouldn't be here. Really. Shaytan SWT deluded ALL of us. Amen.
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #22 - June 08, 2011, 10:02 AM
    Daym, they should've pwned the crap out of Hamza re:the mountain miracle.

    And yeah, he lied about Noah's flood too. What a cunt.


    Youtube
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #23 - June 08, 2011, 10:28 PM
    The video says that Richard Dawkins called Hamza Tzortzis a f*ckwit but I don't see that anywhere in the video. Are they making it up or did they just edit it out? And why isn't Maryam in there at all, they didn't put her in there purposely.
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #24 - June 08, 2011, 11:05 PM
    He might have said it before they got the video on.  It doesn't matter too much though.  The lol comment was "atheist morality" as if swearing is some kind of deep moral quandary.  From what I know Dawkins veers for being really nice and cordial to being slightly rude, but he is a scientist not a public relations guy so I really don't fault him for not being a super charismatic politician type. 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #25 - June 10, 2011, 11:20 AM
    did you hear what Hamza said at 8:43?? "don't you think it's an unhealthy way intellectually to always require empirical evidence to form conclusions about things? it's very crude"

    what am i supposed to take a leap of faith or what?  finmad
    Quote from: zooby on December 26, 2011, 01:57 AM
    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #26 - June 10, 2011, 11:51 AM
    Quote from: clarap on June 10, 2011, 11:20 AM
    did you hear what Hamza said at 8:43?? "don't you think it's an unhealthy way intellectually to always require empirical evidence to form conclusions about things? it's very crude"

    what am i supposed to take a leap of faith or what?  finmad



    Honestly could you have expected anything better?Without their beloved 'leaps of faith' preachers of all hues and shades would be out of business.
    Because these people seem to be having big audiences they must be speaking the 'truth' yes?
    Lmao


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #27 - June 10, 2011, 12:16 PM
    P Z Myers wrote about it on his blog :

    Quote
    I also got into a brief argument with Hamza Andreas Tzortzis, the Muslim creationist. Picture the unholy progeny
     of a union between Ken Ham and
    William Lane Craig, brought up in a
    Muslim household, and you've got this
    guy: he simultaneously pushes a
     reactionary creationism that is as stupid and shallow as the worst of the
    Biblical literalists, and he sprinkles it all
    with longwinded philosophical
     bafflegab every time he gets
     confronted with a challenge. His main
    theme (besides engaging in a remarkably evasive gish gallop) was a
    rejection of empiricism — every time I asked him for evidence…bleeargh, philosophical boilerplate vomited all
     over the place. And of course, in complete
     contradiction of his emphasis on why
     my empirical evidence was irrelevant,
    he kept insisting that he had evidence
    from the precision and accuracy of the
     Quran that Mohammed must have had a divine revelation to know
     all these amazing scientific
    phenomena, like detailed knowledge of embryology, which was bunk. I tried to explain that the 'science' in the
     Quran was nothing but warmed over
     rehashes of dimly understood
     Hippocrates, Aristotle, and Galen, and
     Tzortzis and his claque took an
    astonishing tack to address that: they repeatedly and with great hyperbole
     emphasized that Mohammed was
    abysmally ignorant and entirely
    isolated from the entirety of Western
     culture, having no encounters via
    trade or with doctors who might have given him hints of the common
     understanding of science of the time. They put me in the uncomfortable
    position of having to argue that the
     Arabian culture of Mohammed's time
     could not possibly be as troglodytic
    and benighted as they wanted it to be.
    There was no point, of course: they'd already declared that evidence didn't
    matter.

    "What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say."
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #28 - June 10, 2011, 01:19 PM
    Quote from: clarap on June 10, 2011, 11:20 AM
    did you hear what Hamza said at 8:43?? "don't you think it's an unhealthy way intellectually to always require empirical evidence to form conclusions about things? it's very crude"

    what am i supposed to take a leap of faith or what?  finmad



    Yeah. Hehe. That sentence says it all.
    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #29 - June 10, 2011, 02:13 PM
    i'm watching this vid in parts and now i got to the point where Hamza is saying: 'okay, i'm willing to accept that the description of embryology in the qur'an is very general'. he then proceeds to saying 'why don't we get more specific and talk about geology?'. he got his ass pwnd so he changes the subject. to me it's like thinking 'let's change the subject, maybe i will have more luck now'.

    he's talking to an educated man but imagine him saying this kind of bullshit to a muslim audience! i don't want to infer that muslims are stupid but having watched vids by Zakir Naik i get the impression that there is no critical thought or reflection whatsoever in those attending such lectures.
    it's just makes me really sad./rant Smiley

    Quote from: zooby on December 26, 2011, 01:57 AM
    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

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