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 Topic: Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran

 (Read 56231 times)
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  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #90 - June 20, 2014, 06:52 PM

    Right. Allah wants people to be led astray, but gets upset when they are led astray.
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #91 - June 22, 2014, 08:31 AM

    Right. Allah wants people to be led astray, but gets upset when they are led astray.

    yap.. that is repeated umpteen times in umpteen verses,,

    Quote
    ............."He guides whom He wills to a straight path."........ 2:142

    .........And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path.........,2.213

    ............but Allah guides whom He wills. ...........2:272

    ..........."Allah sends astray whom He wills and He guides on the Straight Path whom He wills"........ 6:39

    .......Allah leaves astray whom He wills...13:27

    ..........whom Allah sends astray, for him, there is no guide.....13:33

    ...... Allah guides not those whom He makes to go astray....16:37

    ......He causes to stray whom He wills and guides whom He wills....16:93

    ......Allah sends astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills ...35:8

    ...........He guides whom He wills. And one whom Allah leaves astray............39:23

    That is indeed BULLSHIT TO BRAIN WASH.  off course one has to be a fool to get brainwashed with such nonsense. And we have plenty on the globe. Anyway let me finish rest of those verses that have the word "Islam" in them and this  is what allah doll did last month.,  send the college going 18 year olds  kids to straight path..  
    Quote


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #92 - June 22, 2014, 11:47 AM

    So Quran  verses that contain word "Islam" are.,  3:19 .,  3:85 .,  5:3 .,  6:125 ., 39:22 and 61:7. we read those 1st four verses., let me read 39:22 and 61:7...

    That 22nd verse from  Az-zumar says
    Quote

    أَفَمَن شَرَحَ اللَّهُ صَدْرَهُ لِلْإِسْلَامِ فَهُوَ عَلَىٰ نُورٍ مِّن رَّبِّهِ ۚ فَوَيْلٌ لِّلْقَاسِيَةِ قُلُوبُهُم مِّن ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ ۚ أُولَـٰئِكَ فِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ


    Transliteration :    Afaman sharaha Allahu sadrahu lilislami fahuwa AAala noorin min rabbihi fawaylun lilqasiyati quloobuhum min thikri Allahi olaika fee dalalin mubeenin

    Yusuf Ali 22:    Is one whose heart Allah has opened to Islam, so that he has received Enlightenment from Allah, (no better than one hard-hearted)? Woe to those whose hearts are hardened against celebrating the praises of Allah! they are manifestly wandering (in error)!

    Shakir 22:    What! is he whose heart Allah has opened for Islam so that he is in a light from his Lord (like the hard-hearted)? Nay, woe to those whose hearts are hard against the remembrance of Allah; those are in clear error.

    Pickthal 22:    Is he whose bosom Allah hath expanded for Al-Islam, so that he followeth a light from his Lord, (as he who disbelieveth)? Then woe unto those whose hearts are hardened against remembrance of Allah. Such are in plain error.


    And the last verse that has the word "Islam" is  verse 7 from surha 61  As-saff
    Quote

    وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ افْتَرَىٰ عَلَى اللَّهِ الْكَذِبَ وَهُوَ يُدْعَىٰ إِلَى الْإِسْلَامِ ۚ وَاللَّهُ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ


    Transliteration 7:    Waman athlamu mimmani iftara AAala Allahi alkathiba wahuwa yudAAa ila alislami waAllahu la yahdee alqawma alththalimeena

    Yusuf Ali 7:    Who doth greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against Allah, even as he is being invited to Islam? And Allah guides not those who do wrong.

    Shakir 7:    And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah and he is invited to Islam, and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

    Pickthal 7:     And who doeth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie against Allah when he is summoned unto Al-Islam? And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk


    So it tells me that the word "Islam" was not there when Prophet started his religion  the so-called "Islam"

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #93 - June 22, 2014, 12:49 PM

    So Quran  verses that contain word "Islam" are.,  3:19 .,  3:85 .,  5:3 .,  6:125 ., 39:22 and 61:7. we read those 1st four verses., let me read 39:22 and 61:7...

    That 22nd verse from  Az-zumar says
    And the last verse that has the word "Islam" is  verse 7 from surha 61  As-saff
    So it tells me that the word "Islam" was not there when Prophet started his religion  the so-called "Islam"


    Interesting.
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #94 - June 22, 2014, 12:52 PM

    This is interesting, so Yeez what about the term muslims, i don't believe that is in the quraan, Mu'min ye but not muslim.

    Is this correct?

    "I Knew who I was this morning, but I've changed a few times since then." Alice in wonderland

    "This is the only heaven we have how dare you make it a hell" Dr Marlene Winell
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #95 - June 22, 2014, 01:04 PM

    Is Muslims a conflation of Muhammad and Islam; Mu'sli'm? Doesn't Mu'min mean follower of Muhammad?
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #96 - June 22, 2014, 01:09 PM

    No to both. Muslim is one who has submitted, from the word aslama. Mu'min is one who has believed, from the word "aamana."

    Muslim is in the Quran. I'm on my phone so I'll post references later.
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #97 - June 22, 2014, 01:29 PM


    This is interesting, so Yeez what about the term muslims, i don't believe that is in the quraan, Mu'min ye but not muslim.

    Is this correct?

     You are right CD. The word "Muslim" is not there in Quran.. but if you convert that word in to meaning  that is what HappyM did( with Arabic words) then Yes.. you can have plenty of such words in Quran that gives same or similar meanings.. but the word "Muslim" itself is not there..

    Is Muslims a conflation of Muhammad and Islam; Mu'sli'm? Doesn't Mu'min mean follower of Muhammad?

     the meaning of the word "Muʾmin (Arabic: مؤمن‎)"   means  just "believer" ..

    you can believe in  allah,  you can believe in  Muhammad and his sayings and alleged actions, and you can  believe  Abraham/stories of Abraham and I could believe in my "DOG BARKING" as sign of something...

    But question is who was Muhammad? Muhammad means just a leader..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #98 - June 22, 2014, 01:40 PM

    The word Muslimoon (plural of Muslim) is in the Quran.

  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #99 - June 22, 2014, 01:44 PM

    No to both. Muslim is one who has submitted, from the word aslama. Mu'min is one who has believed, from the word "aamana."

    Muslim is in the Quran. I'm on my phone so I'll post references later.


    So a Muslim is someone that goes along with it all, goes with the flow whereas a Mu'min is someone who actually believes in the whole thing?
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #100 - June 22, 2014, 01:50 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUimRPULBKU

    ^ Not a mu'min. Probably.
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #101 - June 22, 2014, 01:56 PM

    The word Muslimoon (plural of Muslim) is in the Quran.



    well there could  be many ways to say word "believer"/believers  in Arabic.

    Muslimoon ., Muslimeen ., Mutmaneen ..... whatever

    but NO Word ., no .."MUSLIM" word in Quran happy M ..lol..
     .

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #102 - June 22, 2014, 01:57 PM


     yap....   

     you are NOT a mu'min., you question everything ., so "toor" can not be a "mu'min"

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #103 - June 22, 2014, 02:14 PM

    Maybe you need to look beyond the text and see how precise Allah is with the meaning and there are certain subtleties and nuances to the text that may elude you. Please speak to brother Nouman, expert in linguistics, for further assistance...Inshallah.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #104 - June 22, 2014, 02:15 PM

    well there could  be many ways to say word "believer"/believers  in Arabic.

    Muslimoon ., Muslimeen ., Mutmaneen ..... whatever

    but NO Word ., no .."MUSLIM" word in Quran happy M ..lol..
     .


    Surah 22 verse 78 uses the word muslimoon, which is only the plural of Muslim. So does surah 2 verse 136.
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #105 - June 22, 2014, 02:24 PM

    Surah 22 verse 78 uses the word muslimoon, which is only the plural of Muslim. So does surah 2 verse 136.

     I still will question them., why such word was not used in the first 86 Surahs of Quran ?   Those  who followed "him" in the first 12 years of Muhammad' revelation NOT BELIEVERS??  Not Muslims??

    why is that in  87th surah and 103 surah??

    Quote
    87   2   Baqarah      286   Madina

    103   22   Hajj      78   Madina


    both comes out of so-called Madina and I question all those verses that came out of Madina Muhammad..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #106 - June 23, 2014, 01:12 AM

    Maybe you need to look beyond the text and see how precise Allah is with the meaning and there are certain subtleties and nuances to the text that may elude you. Please speak to brother Nouman, expert in linguistics, for further assistance...Inshallah.

    Jedi I don't look in to or read so-called religious text for words of allah doll any god dolls.  I consider ALL SO CALLED  RELIGIOUS  SCHOLARS as charlatans and trying to make buck out of people's stupidity since the beginning of religions..  What I am interested is whether these texts can give clues about the history of their times.    

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #107 - June 29, 2014, 03:41 AM

    Well we drifted away a bit from our goal, but we did read lot of Quran., So let us summarize here on whatever history we could extract from Quran.  We read so far in this  4 pages of  this thread.   Instead of calling them as "surah" let us call them as "chapters"  as we are  reading Quran in the revelation order. So we read the following

    Chapter-1    (96)     Al-Alaq          19 verses

    Chapter-2    (68)    Al-Qalam         52  verses

    Chapter-3    (73)    Al-Muzzammil   20 verses

    Chapter-4    (74)    Al-Muddathir     56 verses

    Chapter-5    (1)      Al-Fatiha          7 verses  

    Chapter-6     (111)    Al-Masadd         5 verses

    Chapter-7     (81)    At-Takwir         29 verses

    Chapter-8       (87)        Al-Ala          19 verses

    Chapter-9       (92)        Al-Lail         19 verses

    Chapter-10       (89)        Al-Fajr        30 verses

    Chapter-11       (93)        Ad-Dhuha        11 verses

    Chapter-12       (94)        Al-Inshirah       8 verses

    Chapter-13       (103)        Al-Asr        3 verses

    Chapter-14       (100)        Al-Adiyat        11 verses

    Chapter-15       (108)        Al-Kauther    3 verses

    Chapter-16       (102)        At-Takathur         8 verses

    Chapter-17       (107)        Al-Maun         7 verses

    Chapter-18       (109)        Al-Kafiroon        6 verses

    Chapter-19       (105)        Al-fil         5 verses

    Chapter-20       (113)        Al-Falaq         5 verses

    Chapter-21       (114)        An- Nas        6 verses

    Chapter-22       (112)        Al-Ikhlas         4 verses

    Chapter-23       (53)        An-Najm        63 verses

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #108 - June 30, 2014, 06:37 PM

    I think the whole concept of revelation order is a defective relic of much later Muslim tradition.  The Qur'an is a motley assembly of different texts that have gone through massive editing and rearrangement over time, and which incorporate other texts.  Some of the material is surely more archaic than others, but it is not a simple surah by surah exercise, and they were not simply produced in chronological sequence, nor were they left untouched by the process of being written down and edited together.

    What we see in later Muslim tradition is that words which the Qur'an rarely used, and used in narrow contexts, were seized upon by later Muslims and used as new religious terms that were given a broad significance which they do not have in the Qur'an.  Obvious examples:  Islam, Muslim, Mohammed, caliph, hanif.  Not only do these terms have very little significance in the Qur'an, they are also not used in any contemporary Arabic inscriptions or texts until much later, the time of Abd al Malik. 

    At that time they began to be used in a new way alongside the slow emergence of a distinctive new religion.  Ironically, the very fact that these terms were so peripheral to the Qur'an *allowed* later Muslims to use them any way they wanted, and come up with back stories that facilitated the new religion's birth.  That would have been much harder to do with terminology that the Qur'an uses more consistently and which was attested in contemporary Arabic inscriptions and texts, for example "Believers."
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #109 - June 30, 2014, 07:13 PM

    I think the whole concept of revelation order is a defective relic of much later Muslim tradition

    Good to see you Zaotar., That may be true and we can question the order I put out in this thread but you must realize that the present order you see in the book you read is far more defective order than the order I am using..

    No...no the order you see is not discovered by Muslims neither it is a later Muslim tradition.  In fact it is NOT a Muslim tradition., The only guy who used this is that Egyptian guy Rashid Khalifa, trained as   Biochemist from AMRIKA copied in to his Book  and got murdered in Arizona desert for playing with Quran .   In fact it is western historians of 17th and  18th century who went through Quran  carefully to that order out..

    I would love any correct ions you could make to that order.  It is very much possible that is not the real order.   But what we have is we have., My interest is NOT  exploring Islamic theology but exploring the history  of its(Quran's) time.
    Quote
    The Qur'an is a motley assembly of different texts that have gone through massive editing and rearrangement over time, and which incorporate other texts.  Some of the material is surely more archaic than others,

    Oh I agree with that , Now question to explore is., who wrote this, who edited, when and why?   And do you think that there  was a guy whose name was "Muhammad"? who did preach this Quran?

    and..and Is it not possible from the present book to split  the present Quran as alleged Meccan and madinan  revelations?  Or you think that is impossible?
    Quote
    but it is not a simple surah by surah exercise, and they were not simply produced in chronological sequence, nor were they left untouched by the process of being written down and edited together.

    I understand that but we got to start some where, some method  to explore its origins. We just can not go on blindly  believing the bull shit is allah/god revelation and it is what it is.
    Quote
    What we see in later Muslim tradition is that words which the Qur'an rarely used, and used in narrow contexts, were seized upon by later Muslims and used as new religious terms that were given a broad significance which they do not have in the Qur'an.

    Now when you say.. "Later Muslims and earlier Muslims".. what century and which year are you talking?  Is this  early Islam,   some time between the year 610 and say 650 or 700??  but before Bukhari bullshit??
     
    Quote
    Obvious examples:  Islam, Muslim, Mohammed, caliph, hanif.  Not only do these terms have very little significance in the Qur'an, they are also not used in any contemporary Arabic inscriptions or texts until much later, the time of Abd al Malik. 

    So you are talking about Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan   (646 – 8 October 705)   the 5th Umayyad Caliph.  But our hadith is worse than that. And  I agree with you,  even the present Quran hardly mentions Muslims and  Muhammad .. may be 2 or 3 times.   
    Quote
    ...At that time they began to be used in a new way alongside the slow emergence of a distinctive new religion.  Ironically, the very fact that these terms were so peripheral to the Qur'an *allowed* later Muslims to use them any way they wanted, and come up with back stories that facilitated the new religion's birth.  That would have been much harder to do with terminology that the Qur'an uses more consistently and which was attested in contemporary Arabic inscriptions and texts, for example "Believers."...

    I understand all that but we got to let the readers know what we have in the present  book is collated/written/modified/added/subtracted words of some fools who don't even  know how to edit a book after writing it.     I fully agree that  TO START WITH THERE WAS NO QURAN IN ISLAM., and most probably there was no Muhammad in Islam.

    Please be active and add more such historical information and off course freely question &  explore. I am so glad you are reading and writing in to this thread..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #110 - June 30, 2014, 09:33 PM

    Generally my view is similar to that of Gerd Puin:  The Qur'an is a cocktail of texts and detritus that were assembled from a general milieu, over time, and then slowly edited, with consistency and variation slowly weeded out over the centuries.  As such, it reflects contribution from the general religious community of the time, from Mohammed himself, from drafters (those who wrote down what Mohammed said), and from many editors and scribes.

    My general belief is that the Qur'an *does* reflect, in part, teachings of a historical Mohammed.  Yet it seems to consist of multiple layers, as almost every observant critic has noticed, which have undergone several rounds of revision.  The most basic layer consists of general monotheistic and Christian preaching and liturgy which likely circulated in numerous areas of Arabia.  Many of these are either independent short surahs or insertions into the longer surahs.  They pre-existed Mohammed's preaching, and he likely shared in their general attitude; many of these are characterized as "Meccan," though I think they have nothing to do with Mecca, which I think was insignificant in Muslim tradition until very late (likely it was elevated in the context of inter-Arabian fitnas, then adopted by the Umayyads).  In other words, I consider the Mecca/Medina division to be complete fiction that has no relation to the actual text.

    Above that base layer of monotheistic texts and polemic circulating in the region you have Mohammed, whose teachings are at some level reflected in the surahs which are more clearly indicative of militant apocalyptic monotheism.  That is really the 'historical' core of the Qur'an, insofar as it reflects Mohammed's preaching, as interpreted in large part by militant Arab groups following the Arab victories in the regions (much of it, of course, reflects their influence as well).

    At some point many of these texts were written down in the dialect of Mohammed's own region (Aramaicized and Northern), and much later they were "Arabized" into a massive rhyming compilation, complete with HUGE editorial and scribal reworking and assembly.  That was probably a major project that was done with state sponsorship; Muslim tradition records that Uthman assembled a Qur'an, but I think we have no idea who did it, just that it was probably a big project undertaken to help legitimize one or another of the emergent Arab states.  Probably this took several stages, including stages in which you had a couple large corpuses that were welded together.  I believe at this point the Qur'an was essentially "read" and compiled in a more Eastern style of Arabic dialect, following Karl Vollers, although the base texts were originally composed in a Northwestern Arabic dialect that was heavily Aramaicized.  Here is one of my favorite articles on the subject, by Guillaume Dye, who I agree with on almost everything:

    http://www.academia.edu/4730102/Traces_of_Bilingualism_Multilingualism_in_Quranic_Arabic

    Finally, many of the smaller surahs were added late to the end of the corpus, and the orthography began slowly being regularized.  Most of the earliest Qur'anic manuscripts we have lack all of the shorter surahs near the end, and I doubt they were there until very late (early 700s or so) -- they were more 'clean up' texts, with no relation to Mohammed himself, which not coincidentally are often some of the worst-understood and most garbled parts of the Qur'an.  Surah 96 is one of the most obvious examples.  While I disagree with him on many things (the houris, for example), I really do think Luxenberg's reading of 96 is much superior to the traditional Muslim reading, which is disastrously incompetent.

    On top of this process of compilation, creation, assembly, and editing, you had increasing state control exerted over the text, eliminating the variations and prior texts that came out of this process (we actually only have one survivor of the early compilation process, meaning the lower Sanaa palimpsest, and yet I think it was already a fairly late product of this process because it already includes Surah 2, which was originally independent as shown by its distinctive orthography like the spelling of "Ibrahim" ... I would guess its original version probably dates from the very beginnings of the Umayyads though).

    So I really think the Qur'an is such a complicated text that one can hardly speak about it as though it was a normal text written by a normal author in a known language and written in a known script.
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #111 - June 30, 2014, 09:58 PM

    You will have ton load of questions from me on that  Zaotar .. but to start with
    Generally my view is similar to that of Gerd Puin:  The Qur'an is a cocktail of texts and detritus that were assembled from a general milieu, over time, and then slowly edited, with consistency and variation slowly weeded out over the centuries. 

    How many centuries after the death of Muhammad??

    Quote
    As such, it reflects contribution from the general religious community of the time, from Mohammed himself, from drafters (those who wrote down what Mohammed said), and from many editors and scribes.

    So what verses and what surahs are from Muhammad?

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #112 - June 30, 2014, 11:25 PM

    It's not a question of hard dates because it was an extraordinarily slow and involved process that took place at multiple levels --- texts were slowly created, combined, edited, revised, and then variants were weeded out, qira'at settled upon, and orthography made more specific.  Not all in that order.

    If I were to give a rough chronology by my estimates though ..... here's my rough guess at a crude chronology.

    400-600 AD, general monotheistic and Christian texts and polemic circulating throughout the Arabian areas that bordered on Palestine and Mesopotamia.  Much of the material that was later incorporated into the Qur'an was originally formulated around this time.

    622-634 AD, Arab militants take power following the Byzantine and Sassanian collapses.  Among those taking power, one of the Arab leaders is Mohammed, who preached militant apocalyptic monotheism centered on Palestine.

    634 to 660-680ish, the crucial era.  Mohammed's followers, the Believers, are disappointed by his death --- what to do next?  Arabs are generally monotheistic but not particularly doctrinal at this point.  To keep preaching amongst Arabs going, texts written about the "Arabic message" are circulated in crude forms among the believers, including some of what Mohammed said but also the general monotheistic messages.  Some of these texts take forms of surahs, including the Surah of the Cow, which was surely an independent document.  Several different sources and groups independently put together their own texts, some of them more militant and some more "Christian" in tone.  None of these texts are well known, and none have much influence.

    Approximately 660-680 AD -- one of the Arab states in the region, and it is not clear which, sponsors a project to collect together and compile all the narratives of the Arabian prophet.  These are mostly what we know as the Medina surahs, not Meccan.  In the process of their compilation, the written texts are loosely adapted to an East Arabian dialect, and a rhyme scheme is imposed on them.  By this point, not all of the underlying texts are well understood, and their language and context is somewhat alien to the compilers.

    Muawiya and Yazid do not appear to have been very interested in Qur'an or Mohammed.  So I suspect that somebody or some group other than the main Umayyad caliphate sponsored the initial compilation, which the Umayyads then realized could be used to their advantage as a state religion.

    690-695 -- victorious over the Zubayrid caliphate, Abd al Malik makes Mohammed the centerpiece of a new religion of the Arabs, in which Abd al Malik is deemed Mohammed's successor and the caliph of Allah.  Dome of the Rock built.  Many of the shorter surahs are added at this time.

    700 and onward -- the Umayyad caliphate takes a direct interest in the Qur'an, and with Al Hajj and others begins to try to stamp out variations and standardize the text.  Almost all of the Qur'an exists at this point, although its orthography will be revised and variants stomped out.

    So generally speaking, I think the Medina surahs contain most of what likely traces back to Mohammed, although there is no way to pick out any particular piece and say it came from Mohammed.  Also the entire structure was effectively compiled, translated, and edited in a way that makes it meaningless to say whether any particular piece came directly from Mohammed ... more to the point is whether it reflects something that Mohammed was in fact teaching.

    As to what Mohammed was teaching, it seems to be a mix of militant struggle, righteous living, hellfire for the non-believers, and inheritance of the lands to the North, combined with Mohammed being just another bringer of Allah's message, i.e. essentially a preacher who was compatible with Christian and Jewish scriptures.
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #113 - July 01, 2014, 12:32 AM

    Thanks. A very neat digest for a lazy arse like me.
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #114 - July 01, 2014, 10:13 AM

    wonderful post on early history of Islam from Zaotar ..

    It's not a question of hard dates because it was an extraordinarily slow and involved process that took place at multiple levels --- texts were slowly created, combined, edited, revised, and then variants were weeded out, qira'at settled upon, and orthography made more specific.  Not all in that order.

     So basically your Islamic early history falls between 400AD to 700 AD roughly beginning of Umayyad caliphate.,  Well,  when you say "it was an extraordinarily slow and involved process that took place at multiple levels --- texts were slowly created," That goes not only to Islam but almost all of the religious scriptures/ pre-medieval literature/books.,  exception may by that "Analects of Confucius"

    So you think  the book "Quran" we see today has been modified for 300 years by various guys?  And when it became a book they messed up all this so-called of order of revelation?   or YOU THINK THAT THERE WAS NO REVELATION??   whole thing is bogus

    if you look at this Opening post of this thread., that order of alleged revelation is also not the right one??  If that is wrong, what sort of order do you suggest for those 114 chapters?
    Quote
    If I were to give a rough chronology by my estimates though ..... here's my rough guess at a crude chronology.

    400-600 AD, general monotheistic and Christian texts and polemic circulating throughout the Arabian areas that bordered on Palestine and Mesopotamia.  Much of the material that was later incorporated into the Qur'an was originally formulated around this time.

    622-634 AD, Arab militants take power following the Byzantine and Sassanian collapses. Among those taking power, one of the Arab leaders is Mohammed, who preached militant apocalyptic monotheism centered on Palestine.

    Here is the question..was "Muhammad" the present assumed alleged Prophet of Islam., was he alive during that time? or was he dead way before  the year 622??

    I guess what you were writing below is the story of Islam after Muhammad
    Quote
    634 to 660-680ish, the crucial era.  Mohammed's followers, the Believers, are disappointed by his death ---
    what to do next?  Arabs are generally monotheistic but not particularly doctrinal at this point.  To keep preaching amongst Arabs going, texts written about the "Arabic message" are circulated in crude forms among the believers, including some of what Mohammed said but also the general monotheistic messages.  Some of these texts take forms of surahs, including the Surah of the Cow, which was surely an independent document.  Several different sources and groups independently put together their own texts, some of them more militant and some more "Christian" in tone.  None of these texts are well known, and none have much influence.

    Approximately 660-680 AD -- one of the Arab states in the region, and it is not clear which, sponsors a project to collect together and compile all the narratives of the Arabian prophet. 
    These are mostly what we know as the Medina surahs, not Meccan.  In the process of their compilation, the written texts are loosely adapted to an East Arabian dialect, and a rhyme scheme is imposed on them.  By this point, not all of the underlying texts are well understood, and their language and context is somewhat alien to the compilers.

    Muawiya and Yazid do not appear to have been very interested in Qur'an or Mohammed.  So I suspect that somebody or some group other than the main Umayyad caliphate sponsored the initial compilation, which the Umayyads then realized could be used to their advantage as a state religion.

    690-695 -- victorious over the Zubayrid caliphate, Abd al Malik makes Mohammed the centerpiece of a new religion of the Arabs,
    in which Abd al Malik is deemed Mohammed's successor and the caliph of Allah.  Dome of the Rock built.  Many of the shorter surahs are added at this time.
    700 and onward -- the Umayyad caliphate takes a direct interest in the Qur'an, and with Al Hajj and others begins to try to stamp out variations and standardize the text. 
    Almost all of the Qur'an exists at this point, although its orthography will be revised and variants stomped out.

    So generally speaking, I think the Medina surahs contain most of what likely traces back to Mohammed, although there is no way to pick out any particular piece and say it came from Mohammed.  Also the entire structure was effectively compiled, translated, and edited in a way that makes it meaningless to say whether any particular piece came directly from Mohammed ... more to the point is whether it reflects something that Mohammed was in fact teaching.

    So basically, if I understand your post correctly, You are saying

    1).  Quran is nothing to do with allah god.,
    2).  very little of it is from "Muhammad
    3). Most of what we have in Quran is either stories of Before Muhammad or writings/stories  of some scribes after the death of Muhammad

    Did I get that right there?  Now Out of this 114 chapters 6300 or so verses of Quran, which verses you consider  came from Muhammad?  And do you think Muhammad's Idea was to start a new religion in line of OT/NT scriptures  or he was just a preacher didn't like that Arab Paganism of that time around him?     

    Quote
    As to what Mohammed was teaching, it seems to be a mix of militant struggle, righteous living, hellfire for the non-believers, and inheritance of the lands to the North, combined with Mohammed being just another bringer of Allah's message, i.e. essentially a preacher who was compatible with Christian and Jewish scriptures.

    I may not agree with that ., We have very little or nothing on Muhammad,  UNLESS YOU CONSIDER THE STORY OF MUHAMMAD OF HADITH

    Again wonderful analysis  Zaotar . It would be nice if you could read through these links.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg445330#msg445330
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22184.0
    and add your opinions?corrections..

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #115 - July 01, 2014, 04:58 PM

    I'm not sure what you want a comment on with those links.  As I've said above, I think the orthodox sirah and its chronology are essentially meaningless fabrications, so I regard the attempt to read the Qur'an in the light of the sirah as historically useless.

    I think where we probably differ regarding Muhammad's life is that I believe SOME of his beliefs can be gleaned from a combination of the Qur'an and also non-Muslim contemporaneous texts.  This is similar to what I would say about the historical Jesus.  All of these sources are highly problematic and give only contestable glimpses of a historical figure, but these more contemporaneous sources (Qur'an and non-Muslim sources) are much less problematic in that regard than the hadith, which is almost complete mythology.

    I do not think it is possible to identify specific verses or surahs that came from Muhammad, as I don't think any of them came *directly* from Muhammad.  They are the products of many people working in parallel and in concert over decades from many different angles.  To take an example, imagine a member of the Believers, three decades after Mohammed's death, wants to report what he preached.  Such a person might assemble what people around the region generally claim and believe he said.  Those reports would at some level reflect what he probably said, but modified by their recollections, reports from others, passing time, changing views of the community of believers.  Then when they are written down, there are further stages of compilation, addings and subtractings, and edited.  In some sense this compiled text *reflects* what Mohammed preached, in part, but you can't simply pick parts out and say it is Mohammed's while other parts are not. 

    Most of the Gospels is fabrication as well (in the sense that people were writing what they believed Jesus taught, rather than what he actually said), but SOME of it likely reflects the historical figure, and Paul's authentic letters shed SOME light on what he taught and/or his early followers believed.  Just like the Qur'an, you can't take one or another verse and say that it came directly from the historical Jesus, just that some parts likely reflect what he was teaching and other parts do not.

    I really think the point is to treat critical analysis of Islam the exact same way we would any other religion, and to treat it like any other historical subject.
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #116 - July 01, 2014, 05:30 PM

    I'm not sure what you want a comment on with those links.  As I've said above, I think the orthodox sirah and its chronology are essentially meaningless fabrications, so I regard the attempt to read the Qur'an in the light of the sirah as historically useless.

    Well I was thinking that you are going correct that part of Islamic history that si there in those links.  But you are throwing all Lock, stock, barrel and enchiladas of Islam  in to the trash bin.,  There is no help from you on that

     So if you throw out Sirah., then basically  you are throwing Muhammad  out., What information could you get from history of Islam  on "Muhammad" if you throw that Sirah?

    Quote
    I think where we probably differ regarding Muhammad's life is that I believe SOME of his beliefs can be gleaned from a combination of the Qur'an and also non-Muslim contemporaneous texts.
    This is similar to what I would say about the historical Jesus.  All of these sources are highly problematic and give only contestable glimpses of a historical figure, but these more contemporaneous sources (Qur'an and non-Muslim sources) are much less problematic in that regard than the hadith, which is almost complete mythology.

    I do not think it is possible to identify specific verses or surahs that came from Muhammad, as I don't think any of them came *directly* from Muhammad.  They are the products of many people working in parallel and in concert over decades from many different angles.  To take an example, imagine a member of the Believers, three decades after Mohammed's death, wants to report what he preached.  Such a person might assemble what people around the region generally claim and believe he said.  Those reports would at some level reflect what he probably said, but modified by their recollections, reports from others, passing time, changing views of the community of believers.  Then when they are written down, there are further stages of compilation, addings and subtractings, and edited.  In some sense this compiled text *reflects* what Mohammed preached, in part, but you can't simply pick parts out and say it is Mohammed's while other parts are not.  

    Most of the Gospels is fabrication as well (in the sense that people were writing what they believed Jesus taught, rather than what he actually said), but SOME of it likely reflects the historical figure, and Paul's authentic letters shed SOME light on what he taught and/or his early followers believed.  Just like the Qur'an, you can't take one or another verse and say that it came directly from the historical Jesus, just that some parts likely reflect what he was teaching and other parts do not.

    I will get back to that hidden text and I fully agree with whatever you say on Christianity., because if I say that  what you said on Christianity , no Christian will beat up me., But I can not repeat something what you said on Islam/Muhammad. So I will not.

    But could you please  highlight  what you said here "SOME of his beliefs can be gleaned from a combination of the Qur'an and also non-Muslim contemporaneous texts"  from the verses of Quran?

     I mean which verses of Quran highlights Muhammad's beliefs ?  And what proof do you have to say that "they were indeed Muhammad's beliefs??
    Quote
    I really think the point is to treat critical analysis of Islam the exact same way we would any other religion, and to treat it like any other historical subject.

    Oh I absolutely agree with you there..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #117 - July 10, 2014, 01:56 AM

    So let me complete that post w.r.t reading Quran in so-called revelation order, at that link we have read 23 surahs.,   off course we must consider the  "Zaotar''s point "that these little surahs of Quran were added at later stage"  may be in at the end of 7th century or 8th century Islam.  Clearly  no book is from Allah/god but that book is big mess..

    Chapter-24       (80)        An-Najm        42 verses

    Chapter-25       (97)        An-Najm        5 verses

    Chapter-26       (91)        An-Najm        15 verses

    Chapter-27       (85)        An-Najm        22 verses

    Chapter-28       (95)        An-Najm        8 verses

    Chapter-29       (106)        An-Najm        4 verses

    Chapter-30       (101)        An-Najm        11 verses

    Chapter-31       (75)        An-Najm        40 verses

    Chapter-32       (104)        An-Najm        9 verses

    Chapter-33       (77)        An-Najm        50 verses

    Chapter-34       (50)        An-Najm        54 verses

    Chapter-35       (90)        An-Najm        20 verses

    Chapter-36       (86)        An-Najm        17 verses

    Chapter-37       (54)        An-Najm        54 verses

    Chapter-38       (38)        An-Najm        88  verses

    Chapter-39       (7)        An-Najm        206 verses

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #118 - July 10, 2014, 09:45 PM

    Yes, and if you want to see a nice webpage (from an Islamic source no less) which discusses the chronology of early manuscripts and the surahs they contain, here it is:

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/hijazi.html

    What you see is that while early manuscripts contain the long initial surahs, it took very long for them to include the later surahs.  Such that relatively early you have 90% of the text, but only 60% of the surahs.

    This is why I believe that many of the later surahs were put in later, almost as a catchall, taking up scraps in an exhaustive search at a time when the Qur'an was already used as a weapon of state propaganda (late in Abd al Malik's regime and onward), whereas the first surahs were probably compiled independently in multiple locations and then welded together by scribes, in a creative effort, at least a decade or so earlier.

    What is also interesting to me is that so many of the later surahs seem to be more archaic than the earlier surahs, and few of them appear to be fabricated at the time when they were added.  That is almost the reverse of what you might expect.  For example, take surah 96, which I think was probably added late, but was no longer properly understood when it was added.  Unlike the hadith, which were plainly fabricated, the later surahs appear to contain a lot of archaic material that was no longer properly understood at the time they were made part of the Qur'an.  It's inconceivable that they would have been fabricated in the garbled form we have them now; if somebody sitting around 700 AD had wanted to fabricate a surah, they would have come up with something that made sense and where the language was clear, not half-understood garbled text like Surah 112.

    So ironically I think the later surahs may often be the more 'authentic' surahs in the sense of being genuinely ancient texts, at least when you look past the traditional Muslim reading of their rasm, while the earlier surahs are much more the product of later active rewriting and compilation.
  • Reading Quran And Inquiring in to Prophet Muhammad's Life from Quran
     Reply #119 - July 10, 2014, 10:36 PM

    Yes, and if you want to see a nice webpage (from an Islamic source no less) which discusses the chronology of early manuscripts and the surahs they contain, here it is:

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/hijazi.html
    .....

     ...islamic-awareness.org.. is that not interesting.,  The fact they write all that and  write  this nonsense http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/ and  say " Insahallah we will prove Quran as an authentic word of alalh/god whatever " speaks volume about people like those.,

    Their  commonsense goes out of the window the moment any one says " That Quran is nothing to do with allah or any god and not the word of Allah but it is book of its time"

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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