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 Topic: The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...

 (Read 15075 times)
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  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #60 - January 22, 2020, 08:19 PM

    so mundi says
    Yeez,.............
      I'll join.

    well glad to see that..

    So dear mundi., let us take that first verse that word "Muhammad" was used in Quran

    Quote
    Suarh  Al-Imraan : 144.,  ..........................  that is Surah-3 verse-144
    Suarh  Al-Ahzaab: 40 ................................   that is Surah-33 verse-40
    Suarh  Muhammad: 2.................................  that is Surah-47 verse-2
    Surah  Al-Fath: 29    ...................................   that is Surah-48  verse-29

    and Surah As-Saff: 6 ........................... and  that is Surah-61  verse-6 where it says

    Quote
    And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Apostle who will come after me, his name being ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic



    So in the oldest Quran  manuscripts which one of those verses was mentioned first? as you know EGYPTIAN   RASCALS OF ISLAM changed  these surah names and surah numbers and even some verses when they made the book out of those manuscripts ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #61 - January 22, 2020, 08:24 PM

    Oops mundi and Altara beating me up...
    Hi Yeez,

    My research showed the following:

    The manuscript CPP (= arabe a/b) is considered by some scholars as extremely early. But no C14 has been done on it. If I take this manuscript into accunt on top of other C14 dated pre 650 Qurans, the table changes to this:

    3:144   No mention in any of the early manuscripts, present in arabe a and in Qaf 47 (with confirmed C14 to 650)
    33:40   present in Dam 1-25.1 (no image available), present in Chester Beatty I (no image available) (both manuscripts have been C14'd to around 650)
    47: 2  only present in Dam 1-29.1 (no image available, only partial presence "mh")
    48:29 only present in Dam 1-29.1 (no image available, part of verse containing "mhmd"is missing)


    So the evidence for 3:144 is quite compelling. The images can be inspected on Corpus Coranicum. Qaf 47 is C14éd by Corpus Coranicum (ˆ606-652 AD). So there is no reason to doubt the mention of Mohammed from the beginning of the archetype. The best guess for the archetype is 650 AD, possibly 630/640.

    Seems quite evident that this Quran is the result of the scribal workshop. The reading culture followed later. in

    OK..   what does that mean dear mundi?

    Should I take that as  "ONLY ONE VERSE THAT IS 3:144  conclusively mentioned the word "Muhammad "  and other four are Questionable??

    and what does this mean?

    Quote
    present in arabe a and in Qaf 47 (with confirmed C14 to 650)


    give me some link please educate me on that  arabe a and in Qaf 47  what are they?? which earlier Quran manuscript??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #62 - January 22, 2020, 09:06 PM

    Quote
    give me some link please educate me on that  arabe a and in Qaf 47  what are they?? which earlier Quran manuscript??


    It's knowledge I picked up and listed (not from Islamic awareness). But Islamic awareness has listed these C14's in their table in a reliable way, their numbers are correct.

    Qaf47 is very early as I told you, but amongst the manuscripts I mention here, it is not possible to rank them according to age. They are all very early,  650, maybe even 640/630.
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #63 - Yesterday at 03:36 PM

    It's knowledge I picked up and listed (not from Islamic awareness). But Islamic awareness has listed these C14's in their table in a reliable way, their numbers are correct.

    Qaf47 is very early as I told you, but amongst the manuscripts I mention here, it is not possible to rank them according to age. They are all very early,  650, maybe even 640/630.

    well all right .. they are all very early manuscripts..say.....630-640-650.,  and there is nothing wrong in using  Islamic-awareness.org to gather information on early Quran manuscripts dear mundi..  so you did not follow up on the question

    Quote
    Quote
    mundi:

    My research showed the following:

    The manuscript CPP (= arabe a/b) is considered by some scholars as extremely early. But no C14 has been done on it. If I take this manuscript into accunt on top of other C14 dated pre 650 Qurans, the table changes to this:

    3:144   No mention in any of the early manuscripts, present in arabe a and in Qaf 47 (with confirmed C14 to 650)
    33:40   present in Dam 1-25.1 (no image available), present in Chester Beatty I (no image available) (both manuscripts have been C14'd to around 650)
    47: 2  only present in Dam 1-29.1 (no image available, only partial presence "mh")
    48:29 only present in Dam 1-29.1 (no image available, part of verse containing "mhmd"is missing)

     
    Quote
    yeezevee: Should I take that as  "ONLY ONE VERSE THAT IS 3:144  conclusively mentioned the word "Muhammad "  and other four are Questionable??



    I guess in your research of early Qurans., You are excluding the one from   “Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān” At The Topkapi Museum, Istanbul, Turkey, From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra. .. which has been assumed  that it was published in Late 1st century / early 2nd century of hijra..((~somewhere between 690 to 185)..

    So that Quran in that Istanbul, Turkey.. must have had all 4 "Muhammads and that Ahmad"  word in it...

    Did you had any chance of looking in to that dear mundi??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #64 - Yesterday at 08:43 PM

    Topkapi:

    I haven't looked at that one because it is not super-early. The rasm is very stable, if it is in the earliest Qurans and also in Cairo 1924, I assume it is also in what is between. A scribal error here or there, or an addition that hasn't set through doesn't interest me.

    3:144 is according to me, without any possible doubt attested in the archetype. I have seen the word in the manuscript with my own eyes on the Corpus Coranicum site.

    The other verses do not have an image on the site. I believe them when they say "mhmd" is there. But since I haven't seen it with my own eyes, there is still the possibility of Corpus lying... Roll Eyes. In these times of fake news, St. Thomas gave us a good lesson.
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #65 - Yesterday at 09:10 PM

    Topkapi:

    I haven't looked at that one because it is not super-early. The rasm is very stable, if it is in the earliest Qurans and also in Cairo 1924, I assume it is also in what is between. A scribal error here or there, or an addition that hasn't set through doesn't interest me.

    3:144 is according to me, without any possible doubt attested in the archetype. I have seen the word in the manuscript with my own eyes on the Corpus Coranicum site.
    ............. Roll Eyes. In these times of fake news, St. Thomas gave us a good lesson.

    Thank you for that response dear mundi .. well then we will discuss that 3:144 .,  but what did  St. Thomas say on fake news...  lol..

    So 3:144 :
    Quote
    And Muhammad is no more than an apostle; the apostles have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.


    Now I wonder whether you will be able to print here.,  "some 5 verses above and 5 verses below of that verse 3.144 "   from OLDEST QURAN MANUSCRIPTS THAT YOU CAN ACCESS...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #66 - Yesterday at 09:51 PM

    Yeez,

    https://we.tl/t-exphpn1fcz

    The image is from Qaf 47
    Quote
    606-652, σ2 (95,4%) [¹⁴C-Datierung von ms.or.fol. 4313]

  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #67 - Yesterday at 10:48 PM

    Yeez,

    https://we.tl/t-exphpn1fcz

    The image is from Qaf 47


    hi mundi 

    https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/3/vers/151/handschrift/163

    help me out on that bit ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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