Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
Today at 06:42 PM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
by akay
Today at 09:47 AM

Freely down loadable Boo...
February 14, 2019, 09:47 PM

Reading Quran And Inquiri...
February 13, 2019, 02:30 PM

Scientists and .............
by akay
February 13, 2019, 06:57 AM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
February 11, 2019, 07:06 PM

Richard Dawkins...
February 11, 2019, 05:42 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 230176 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 178 179 180« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5370 - Today at 01:28 PM

    What about this remark from Crone?

    Thus, she is capable to use the frame  "Prophet"/Mecca/Medina/Kaba that she abandoned about Hagarism/Meccan trade to address "THE FIRST-CENTURY CONCEPT OF HIGRA" .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5371 - Today at 01:31 PM

    So what if she believed that some parts of the Quran were Muhammad's own words?


    She used the frame  "Prophet"/Mecca/Medina/Kaba  to work on it like 90% of the field today. I put aside Dye and Segovia  (and in a certain way Cuypers because the "prophet" is not supposed to be an expert in Semitic Rhetoric) who moves away from this frame.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5372 - Today at 01:41 PM

    Crone on Mohammed and the Quran:

    Quote
    But that he uttered all or most of them is difficult to doubt.


    Indeed, accepting the paradigm got her right on track again.

    I refer now to my previous post on Lindstedt's article on hgra.  Young guy not treading on anyone's toes. It would be interesting to see how often scholars refer to his work compared to the work of a scholar like Kerr...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5373 - Today at 03:09 PM

    Quote
    It would be interesting to see how often scholars refer to his work compared to the work of a scholar like Kerr...


    90% of the time. I put aside here Gibson who does not address the topic. Apart Dye Segovia, Gobillot (who is finalizing her 1,000 p. book) and Berg (who seems in semi retirement of the general topic), Reynolds who is standing prudently aside of it, I do not see any scholar in the field who do not believe that the frame "Muhammad"/Mecca/Medina/Kaba as described by Ibn Ishaq is not  historically  true about the origin of the Quran. They're all believe in it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5374 - Today at 03:37 PM

    Crone on Mohammed and the Quran:
    Indeed, accepting the paradigm got her right on track again.


    It is quite ironic that the existence of Muhammad is never questioned by Crone in Hagarism; it is accepted at once (p.4 by the introduction of the Doctrina Jacobi which is a purely mess text) as if she was comforting  and was warning all the field  that she was not going to question its existence (necessarily in the  frame Mecca/Medina/Kaba/Zem Zem what else?) so she did not (really)  put aside this frame as she accepted the existence of its principal figure...     
    But the really startling thing about the Doctrina is its report that the Prophet was preaching the advent of 'the anointed one who is to come'. That is to say the core of the Prophet's message, in the earliest testimony available to us outside the Islamic tradition, appears as Judaic messianism. The idea is hardly a familiar one, but again it is strikingly confirmed ~ independent evidence.                 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5375 - Today at 03:55 PM

    1/Existence of Mohammed:

    There having been a prophet-general (called Mohammed or not) and attributing the Quran to this general is yet another leap of faith.
    And yet, scholars like Crone don't seem to have any problems taking this step.

    2/ Believing in the triad Mohammed/Mecca/Medina and not addressing critical scholars like Kerr (as if he is air) are also different things. Normally one wants to convince the one with a different opinion. Here scholars avoid them (very Quranic 28:55).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5376 - Today at 03:55 PM

    Quote
    There having been a prophet-general (called Mohammed or not)


    Is this also a leap of faith?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5377 - Today at 04:01 PM

    Existence of Mohammed:

    No, I think there are sufficient sources pointing to his existence. I personally think he existed. And if I says so.... grin12
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5378 - Today at 04:49 PM

    One cannot say like Crone in the beginning of Hagarism :

    The Islamic sources provide plenty of scope for the implementation of these different approaches, but offer little that can be used in any decisive way to arbitrate between them. The only way out of the dilemma is thus to step outside the Islamic tradition altogether and start again

    And to not step outside the main figure of this tradition as responsible of the Quranic text. Topic that she never addresses as if it was not the main topic in the field and necessarily of her book . I'm sorry but it is the main topic in the field and there is no other one.
    Thus, "to step outside the Islamic tradition altogether and start again" is not what she does ; Hagarism carries out a true/false "step outside the Islamic tradition" which of course prevent to explain really the emergence of the Quranic text which, in fact, does not interested her at all.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5379 - Today at 04:53 PM

    Yes there are recent (and old) papers about this topic. All read the word from the 9th frame : Mecca/Medina/Kaba/Zem Zem... (yawn...)

     Altara  ..that letter/word ....."9th frame" .....in the last three responses for me ..  mean 9th century Islamic story of  that Quranic word  "muhajirun"..??    if it is, I am going to go to war  with you..

    yes ..  muhajirun.. this UK girl  did not know/ does not know that  she is  a 9th Century "muhajirun".



    she is again in BBC NEWS


    What the hell  ....suddenly  i see some 20 posts.,    you  guys after drinking that Altara's  Zem Zem and  yawning  you guys are running race on high horses... 

    well  let me read these links before i read posts..

    1.The Concept of Muhājirūn – and Its Potential Significance for the Piety of the Seventh-Century Qur'ānic Movement

    2.  Reflections on the Identity of the Arabian Conquerors  of the Seventh-Century Middle East
     
    3. Fighting Words_ Religion, Violence, and the Interpretation of Sacred Texts

    that 3rd  one has catchy heading..  i must read that..  good stuff good one.. and  damn   this guy Robert G. Hoyland  is very good story teller and great writer all the 25 pages of  his paper,  i would have said in 2 pages

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5380 - Today at 04:54 PM

    I agree Altara. So let's get back on topic. I have not received any feedback yet.

    Al Jallad on the Arabic toponyms (written in Greek) from the 6th C Petra papyri:

    Almost all place names seem to be Arabic. Some questions:

    1/ I wonder how Quranic the Petra Arabic was? How much of the vocabulary can be found in the Quran?
    2/ Was the (Greek writing) scribe also Arab and Arabic speaker? Could people like that have written in their spare time after working hours texts in Arabic as local folklorists?
    3/ Where did administration scribes get their education? In the monastery? In special administrator schools?


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5381 - Today at 05:33 PM

    Quote
    ............. So let's get back on topic. I have not received any feedback yet................

      mundi  says on his post of  Al Jallad etal .. 50 page article
     
    Al Jallad on the Arabic toponyms (written in Greek) from the 6th C Petra papyri:

      50 page  Al Jallad etall..  article


    Hi  mundi .. that is good one  and new direction but there is too much to read .50 pages. So you tell me what does   Al Jallad etal article  say on these  4 words

    1. Muhammad. 2. Mecca,  3. Madina,  4. Zam  Zam?  and  hijra  &  " muhajirun "  ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5382 - Today at 05:34 PM

    Altara  ..that letter/word ....."9th frame" .....in the last three responses for me ..  mean 9th century Islamic story of  that Quranic word  "muhajirun"..??    if it is, I am going to go to war  with you..
      this guy Robert G. Hoyland  is very good story teller and great writer all the 25 pages of  his paper,  i would have said in 2 pages


     All these article are in the frame Mecca/Medina/Kaba/ Zem Zem.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5383 - Today at 05:42 PM

     
    Quote
    All these article are in the frame Mecca/Medina/Kaba/ Zem Zem.


    Oh I see., you mean articles BY PEOPLE ., I agree with that and....I was talking About the words


     My point essentially is   "Mecca/Medina/Kaba/ Zem Zem and Muhammad"   WERE ALREADY THERE  IN ARABIC LANGUAGE BEFORE THE BIRTH OF QURAN AND BEFORE THE BIRTH OF ISLAMIC PROPHET..  including  that words like  hijra  &  " muhajirun "  ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5384 - Today at 05:48 PM

    Quote
    My point essentially is   "Mecca/Medina/Kaba/ Zem Zem and Muhammad"   WERE ALREADY THERE  IN ARABIC LANGUAGE BEFORE THE BIRTH OF QURAN AND BEFORE THE BIRTH OF ISLAMIC PROPHET..  including  that words like  hijra  &  " muhajirun "  ..


    Before QURAN ? Surely not haha!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5385 - Today at 05:52 PM

    Yeez,

    About the 50 pages of Al Jallad's article: no need to read the whole thing to get the drift...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5386 - Today at 05:55 PM

    Quote
    Before QURAN ? Surely not haha!


    yes Before Quran..  the present book......  well let me say this.,   Classical Prophet of Islam was allegedly born in the year 571

    Quote
    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.


    so all those  words were there in Arabic language or in languages around Arabia before the year 571...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5387 - Today at 06:01 PM

    Yeez,

    About the 50 pages of Al Jallad's article: no need to read the whole thing to get the drift...

      oh i see ....  ,  well  it says NOTHING ABOUT   

    "Mecca/Medina/Kaba/ Zem Zem /Muhammad"/ hijra/    and and these  muhajirun"  

    So  not useful to me  Cheesy Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5388 - Today at 06:42 PM

    Petra papyri:


    There are quite some indications that this is the area the Quran originated. Examining documents/circumstances dating from just decades before emergence of Quran is relevant imo.
  • Previous page 1 ... 178 179 180« Previous thread | Next thread »