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 Topic: Hey New Member

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  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #30 - June 05, 2011, 07:39 PM
    I think it's more that he/she hasn't thoroughly thought about this stuff. I commend him/her for trying now.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #31 - June 05, 2011, 07:46 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on June 05, 2011, 07:35 PM
    So then why do you think our disbelief in Islam is a choice?  If you can't force yourself to believe in something, it should stand to reason that nor can we.

    Welcome, btw.   Smiley


    I'm not sure. Thanks for the welcome.

    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on June 05, 2011, 07:36 PM
    Exactly. You can't just choose to believe something. You either do or you don't. You can be made to believe/disbelieve, by evidence, by argument, by experience. But you can't flick a switch and just choose to believe the opposite.

    So I ask you again, do you think we can just choose to believe in Allah ad Islam?


    I'm not sure. I don't know how to answer that question. Sorry.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #32 - June 05, 2011, 07:51 PM
    The answer you are looking for is - no, of course we can't just choose to believe something that doesn't make sense to us. By extension, punishing someone for their beliefs, something that is beyond pure choice, is unreasonable. To torture someone for eternity for it, is indefensible. To claim then that the torturer is just or merciful, is laughable.

    But let's move on... question no.2... Allah knew he was going to send some people to hell forever... before he even created them. Yet he, needless being that he is, still created them. Why? Does he like torturing people?
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #33 - June 05, 2011, 07:51 PM
    Quote from: Eternity on June 05, 2011, 07:46 PM
    I'm not sure. I don't know how to answer that question. Sorry.

    But you did answer it.

    Here:
    Quote from: Eternity on June 05, 2011, 07:34 PM
    I can't as I don't believe any of that to be true. So while I might believe it I'd be lying to myself.

    ^In the same way you cannot just choose to believe that pigs can fly I cannot just choose to believe that Zeus/Cthulu/Odin are the real deal.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #34 - June 05, 2011, 07:56 PM
    Quote
    The answer you are looking for is - no, of course we can't just choose to believe something that doesn't make sense to us. By extension, punishing someone for their beliefs, something that is beyond pure choice, is unreasonable. To torture someone for eternity for it, is indefensible. To claim then that the torturer is just or merciful, is laughable

    .

    No Comment.

    Quote
    But let's move on... question no.2... Allah knew he was going to send some people to hell forever... before he evented them. Yet he, needless being that he is, still created them. Why? Does he like torturing people?


    I can't answer why God creates Humans when he doesn't need them. I just take the idea that he did and shouldn't need reason as it really boils to nothing in the end.

    God doesn't like torturing people. But as with Justice it must be done I'm afraid.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #35 - June 05, 2011, 07:58 PM
    It's not that god makes humans he didn't need, it's that god makes humans for the sole purpose of torturing them forever. You agree that this is the case, right?
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #36 - June 05, 2011, 08:03 PM
    It's not that god makes humans he didn't need, it's that god makes humans for the sole purpose of torturing them forever. You agree that this is the case, right?

    Well no because if God did he'd just put all that he did not like in already. We are given free will and as the Quran says earn what our hands of brought forth. So if I commit a crime I deserve to go to jail. Such is the case if I go kill a person I due to the Quran go to Hell. It's justice.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #37 - June 05, 2011, 08:05 PM
    Quote from: Hananii on June 05, 2011, 04:43 PM
    Yes! More 19 year olds from the US  dance
    Welcome Eternity grin12
    Where from the US are you?



    he is muslim don't get too excited -_-

    welcome Cheesy
    [13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
    [13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
    [13:37] <Fimbles> see
    [13:37] <Fimbles> you think i'd enjoy anything above 7 inches up my arse?
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #38 - June 05, 2011, 08:09 PM
    Quote from: Eternity on June 05, 2011, 08:03 PM
    It's not that god makes humans he didn't need, it's that god makes humans for the sole purpose of torturing them forever. You agree that this is the case, right?

    Well no because if God did he'd just put all that he did not like in already. We are given free will and as the Quran says earn what our hands of brought forth. So if I commit a crime I deserve to go to jail. Such is the case if I go kill a person I due to the Quran go to Hell. It's justice.


    You're not following. Let's assume that we have free will and that hell is just. Both premises are nonsense of course, but let's accept them for argument's sake. That doesn't change the fact that Allah knew that you were going to make certain choices, and he knew he was going to send certain people to hell forever. There are an infinite number of people he could have created, yet he still decided to make those people that he knew were going to end up being tortured for eternity. Why?
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #39 - June 05, 2011, 08:22 PM
    Hey, welcome mate Afro


     Thread sneaker
    Hi
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #40 - June 05, 2011, 08:24 PM
    I can't really answer that as I'm not a scholar of the Quran. Giving my what I know without much knowledge wouldn't be any different then a baseless opinion. So I'm afraid I can't answer that. Thanks for all of the questions though.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #41 - June 05, 2011, 08:30 PM
    A knowledge of the qur'an isn't required, it's a simple argument. And for what it's worth, no one I've met has been able to answer any of these questions. So let's move on shall we Tongue

    You believe, I presume, that a baby who dies during infancy will go straight to heaven, right?
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #42 - June 05, 2011, 08:30 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on June 05, 2011, 08:09 PM
    There are an infinite number of people he could have created, yet he still decided to make those people that he knew were going to end up being tortured for eternity. Why?

    This: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #43 - June 05, 2011, 08:35 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on June 05, 2011, 08:30 PM
    A knowledge of the qur'an isn't required, it's a simple argument. And for what it's worth, no one I've met has been able to answer any of these questions. So let's move on shall we Tongue

    You believe, I presume, that a baby who dies during infancy will go straight to heaven, right?


    Yes, I do believe that. Any child under the age of 15 if I remember correctly.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #44 - June 05, 2011, 08:37 PM
    Why are they given a free pass to heaven and eternal bliss? When the rest of us have to take this 'test' and potentially end up making choices that will get us tortured incomprehensibly painfully forever? Why couldn't we be exempt too? How is that at all fair?
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #45 - June 05, 2011, 08:43 PM
    Why are they given a free pass to heaven and eternal bliss?

    Because anyone under 15 isn't considered to be able to understand the religion correctly and is still in the learning process of it.

    When the rest of us have to take this 'test' and potentially end up making choices that will get us tortured incomprehensibly painfully forever? Why couldn't we be exempt too? How is that at all fair?

    Because after 15 you are considered a person of good understanding and from then on are allowed to either go on the right path or let yourself be deceived into entering the wrong one.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #46 - June 05, 2011, 08:52 PM
    Again, you're not following. Allah caused them to die in infancy, so he has essentially given them a free pass to heaven. Correct?
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #47 - June 05, 2011, 08:55 PM
    Quote
    Again, you're not following. Allah caused them to die in infancy, so he has essentially given them a free pass to heaven. Correct?


    I suppose you could worded that way.  Yes.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #48 - June 05, 2011, 08:57 PM
    So again, why does Allah give some people a free pass to eternal bliss, people who could have been ploytheists, where as other people have to take this test and end up in hell forever for it, when they too could have had a free pass to heaven?
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #49 - June 05, 2011, 09:00 PM
    I'm not sure why. Can't answer.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #50 - June 05, 2011, 09:03 PM
    At least you've got to hand it to Eternity that he's honest and open about this; he's not trying to rationalize or proselytize.

    Also, another thing is, why do you think people do bad things?
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #51 - June 05, 2011, 09:08 PM
    Ok let's backtrack a little. The unforgiveable sin in Islam is disbelief. If you don't believe, then all your good deeds are worthless (supposing you were exposed to Islam). And if you had iman, then eventually you will go to heaven, right?
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #52 - June 05, 2011, 09:11 PM
    Quote
    Also, another thing is, why do you think people do bad things?


    Why? I think it can be a number of reasons.

    1. They just want to. Out of pure desire.

    2. They have mental imbalance and consider what they are doing to be right

    *3. Shaytian deceives them and they choosingly fall into sin.

    Note: The 3rd one can and is pretty much similar to the first except that I like to separate the two so they won't be confused as the same.

     
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #53 - June 05, 2011, 09:22 PM
    Hate to intrude while Spinoza's doing his thang, but


    Why? I think it can be a number of reasons.

    1. They just want to. Out of pure desire.

    2. They have mental imbalance and consider what they are doing to be right

    *3. Shaytian deceives them and they choosingly fall into sin.

    Note: The 3rd one can and is pretty much similar to the first except that I like to separate the two so they won't be confused as the same.


    Consider that by 1 you're implying that either for bad people the temptation was stronger than for good people, in which case it's not their fault but rather a result of their circumstances, OR they are *weaker* than "good people" when resisting temptation. If they are weaker, you must ask yourself: Did they "choose" to be weak? Who would willingly choose to be weak? Since they didn't *choose* to be weak, who created them weak?

    2 also vindicates them since you can't punish someone for doing what they think is right.

    3 Again, no one "chooses" sin if they know the consequences. If they don't know the consequences, it's not their fault. If they do know the consequences yet still sin, this shows weakness. This leads us again to the "Who created them weak?" problem.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #54 - June 05, 2011, 09:26 PM
    Anyway, I just wanted to point that out, but you should reply to what Spinoza said since I basically just rudely hijacked the thread Tongue
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #55 - June 05, 2011, 09:43 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on June 05, 2011, 09:08 PM
    Ok let's backtrack a little. The unforgiveable sin in Islam is disbelief. If you don't believe, then all your good deeds are worthless (supposing you were exposed to Islam). And if you had iman, then eventually you will go to heaven, right?


    Yes, because you blatantly denied the existence of God. As such your previous good deeds while still recorded are of not much use to you. You don't go to heaven just for Iman it includes are a lot of other things such as good deeds, prayer, etc. But yes generally that is needed.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #56 - June 05, 2011, 09:48 PM
    The majority opinion, I believe, is that if you have an ounce of iman and did not commit the unforgiveable sin then, after paying for your misdemeanours, you will go to heaven eventually.

    But sure, let's work with your interpretation. Why is disbelief a crime? Who are we harming that we have to be punished for it? And so severely? Surely not God, he is unaffectable. How do you justify punishing someone at all, let alone incomprehnsibly painfully for eternity, for their beliefs? (Even if they could choose them, which they can't.)
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #57 - June 05, 2011, 10:01 PM
    Quote
    The majority opinion, I believe, is that if you have an ounce of iman and did not commit the unforgiveable sin then, after paying for your misdemeanours, you will go to heaven eventually.

    But sure, let's work with your interpretation. Why is disbelief a crime? Who are we harming that we have to be punished for it? And so severely? Surely not God, he is unaffectable. How do you justify punishing someone at all, let alone incomprehnsibly painfully for eternity, for their beliefs? (Even if they could choose them, which they can't.)


    This makes quite a lot of sense. But I don't want to be to gullible here and as such will ask those of more knowledge in the Islamic faith to give me there thoughts on it. It may not be original but it'll hopefully give you the answer you need.

  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #58 - June 05, 2011, 10:08 PM
    I'm still waiting for the last 30 people who said they were going to ask a scholar to give me an answer. Smiley But ok, you do that. We shall move on.

    The usual response to the question of why God commands us to pray is, "It's for our good, not his", but then why does he punish us for not worshipping him. Who are we harming by not worshipping him that we have to be punished for it? He has no need for our worship, surely, and he has no use for it.
  • Re: Hey New Member
     Reply #59 - June 05, 2011, 10:13 PM
    Wow that last one was something I haven't heard before. I wasn't going to ask a Iman as I don't really have access to any lately. But I'll ask some other Muslims on another forum. Should be something nice to hear about.
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