Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Yesterday at 08:51 PM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
Yesterday at 06:58 PM

Kashmir endgame
Yesterday at 02:15 PM

Blasphemy Case of Junaid...
Yesterday at 12:57 PM

The Cult of Social Justic...
September 18, 2019, 03:50 PM

The Battle for British Is...
September 17, 2019, 06:28 PM

Muslim heritage?
September 17, 2019, 06:04 PM

Scientists and .............
by akay
September 17, 2019, 06:22 AM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
by akay
September 16, 2019, 04:53 PM

Freely down loadable Boo...
September 16, 2019, 10:07 AM

Islamic Humanism
September 15, 2019, 12:01 PM

Beard outbreak in Uzbekis...
September 15, 2019, 09:22 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Judging Muhammad and scripture

 (Read 5929 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Judging Muhammad and scripture
     OP - June 05, 2011, 08:10 AM

    Hi all,

    I was recently in a discussion with an Islamic Studies professor and I gained a valuable insight that I wanted to share.
    It often occurs that people point out Muhammad's flaws by pointing to immoral verses like 4:34 (wife beating), 4:11 (inheritance), 65:4 (how to divorce a prepubescent girl), and many more.
    I thought reading Tafsir would provide sufficient insight to judge verses, but this is not the case most of the time as we (or at least, I) tend to forget about the cultural/legal context of the time in which they were revealed.
    For example, issues such as child marriage and wife beating were existent, but Muhammad was the one to address them from a legalistic point of view (wife beating is a last resort, whereas earlier there were no rulings on this; prepubescent girls in marriage are given the same right as mature wives, being an obliged 3 month waiting period before one can divorce her).

    In essence, scripture is, according to this professor, both a spiritual and ethical guide for a society at a point in time.

    I hadn't looked at the Quran like this before and it does put some things into perspective (which is necessary in a debate).

    <dust>: i love tea!!!
    <dust>: milky tea
    <three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
    <dust>: mm
    <three>: it's definitely not called neck
    <dust>: lol
    <three>: what's the word i'm looking for
    <dust>: throat
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #1 - June 05, 2011, 08:16 AM

    What about the fact that Mo is considered to be al-Insan al-Kamil?
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #2 - June 05, 2011, 08:24 AM

    ^^What Kenan said.  This whole arguement that it needs to be understood based on the time it was revealed makes the Quran nothing but a historical document that has no weight for a religion that should last a lifetime.

    Where is the mohammed for these times?

    To clarify how we should do things now that even non muslims treat their women a gazillion times better?

    Its like how muslims throw back at you that islam was the first to help women, and in the west right up to the 20th century women were still shit, but muslim women had more rights.  Well guess what mother fuckers?  that shit has changed too.  So when will Islam change now that wife beating rules, etc are no longer relevant?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #3 - June 05, 2011, 08:43 AM

    Obviously I raised the same question in the discussion, and his answer was "No scripture can, in its textus receptus form be applicable for every time. which is why the jurists came up with 'taghyeer al ahkaam li taghyeer al azmaan wa'l makaan'. But they applied this to sunna, not to quran. Fazlur rahman came up with the double movement theory..read about this in his "islam and moderntiy"."
    I personally don't agree with this at the moment, but then again, I'm not a scholar and not in a position to judge on what the Quran ought to be. (his words)
    In an earlier discussion I mentioned Muhammad's sayings are not what you would expect from a prophet of god, but he pointed out that what we as noobs (not in these words exactly) think the definition of a prophet is, is not correct necessarily correct and pointed me to other scripture for the definition (Samuel something, didn't check it out).

    His point is basically that people who don't have a full understanding of Islam in its entirety are just trying to poke holes in scripture, without objectivity. And that's why academics don't discuss religion like we do.
    I agree with him on that, because we can't be objective if we are not educated on all aspects that touch on Islam, and that was basically the point of my post. That we shouldn't argue as if we have mastered the Quran by reading a Tafsir or two of a couple verses, but try to bring it in perspective and that way argue more objectively.

    In a nutshell what he wanted to say, if you want to debate on religion: keep educating yourself.

    <dust>: i love tea!!!
    <dust>: milky tea
    <three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
    <dust>: mm
    <three>: it's definitely not called neck
    <dust>: lol
    <three>: what's the word i'm looking for
    <dust>: throat
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #4 - June 05, 2011, 09:07 AM

    His point is basically that people who don't have a full understanding of Islam in its entirety are just trying to poke holes in scripture, without objectivity.
    In a nutshell what he wanted to say, if you want to debate on religion: keep educating yourself.

    I don't suppose the guy is quite aware just how absurd and self-defeating his position is? He is basically arguing for an 'objective' assessment of Quran based on rational subjectivity.

    Even worse, his argument stems from position that is based of Kantian subjectivity which originates form European Enlightenment that entered the discourse of Islam through colonialism and is alien to Islamic tradition.





  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #5 - June 05, 2011, 09:11 AM

    It's a classic defense mechanism employed by religious people to deflect criticism of their belief system.

    No matter how much you know, you can never know enough to criticise, therefore they win so there.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #6 - June 05, 2011, 09:24 AM

    ^
    This. The fact that Qur'an is not applicable to 21st Century but 7th Century makes me disbelieve that Qur'an is a true word of god sent down by Angel Jibreel.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #7 - June 05, 2011, 11:36 AM

    It's a classic defense mechanism employed by religious people to deflect criticism of their belief system.

    No matter how much you know, you can never know enough to criticise, therefore they win so there.


    Yes, and I'm almost positive that his own requirement for becoming a muslim in the first place was the ability to breath both in and out.
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #8 - June 05, 2011, 01:09 PM

    I feel that you guys are being a bit unreasonable. This guys is not even muslim in the strict sense. I never felt he defended Islam in an irrational, hopeless way. To the contrary, all he does is promote historical knowledge and lays out ground rules for an objective debate. I'll paste his last to comments, maybe you'll see something different.

    This comment I got after saying God's plan does not make sense if you ask me, why like this, not like this, bla bla
    "Sorry dude.. i did not ask you. YOuobviuosly have your way of looking at things. And you are right...you are not entitled to make judgments especially when they come from a background of lack of knowledge. Simple. Wife beating does have more than just economic consequences...and think of this coming in a culture where women were not even thought of having souls, as per the church fathers. SInce you seem so quick to jude...here is how I see it...not that it matters. If one does not know his/her religion, and then gives it up because of whatever complex, one should have the decency to not adduce stillborn arguments. If you don't know the language of the document, the cultural anthropology, nor even the role of a prophet except for what YOU assume it ought to be...when as I showed you, Samuel 1 would give you a different idea, then you see why professors and other academics have a certain attitude. Put it this way: if you were in my class, and I were to ask you ..do you know this rule, or that rule, or such a law..and you did not...or even the etymology of the word "prophet" and your answers showed that you did not, how you would look. Instead you are tossing around terms like 'acrobatics" and now "apologetic"...I can throw terms like "illogicaL" "uneducated" "back at you..but why bother? As I have noted several times before: you are entitled to your views. What i find ridiculous is your judging and talking about if you were God what you would do. Perhaps you should try focuising on what you are...a human with an admittedly limit data base in a particular field. IN such a case, one observes and keeps one's opinions. To engage others leads to statements that might seem condescending. And then when you don't know the basics of hermeneutic and the history of legislation as far semitic religion goes, then you see why this becomes from the very get go, a jejune encounter."


    What I replied was something that he's got me and I should learn more about the history before and during Islam

    "It is not a matter of defeat or victory...for one has to go into a discussion with the idea that perhaps Muhammad may have been a prophet..as well as he may have been a charlatan. But such judgment is only reflective of objectivity if one has a background in study that is truly investigative. If I come with the viewpoint that Muhammad is a prophet, or there is a god, no matter what is said and done that sounds idiotic from their edicts, then it is just as wrong. Thus far, while I have used the word God..my focus is one the verse qua verse, based on human history and anthropology....which is why I respect the older scriptures and do not accuse them of corruption...something many Muslims love to do."


    Again, I said in my earlier post I don't agree with the 'timelessness of the Quran with those adaptations of sunna', but his point is (probably) that I shouldn't immediately dismiss that as nonsense, or someone trying to bullshit himself out of something. That's not very objective and honest, and I agree with him on that.
    Rest assured that my atheism is not affected at all. It's just a matter of correctly debating to me, I think that's also important.
    It's (somewhat) like creationists trying to attack evolution on its weaker points without knowing enough about the basics of the theory. Yes, our arguments against Islam are more probably less ignorant then theirs against evolution, but see the knowledge as a continuum, not as "we are knowledgeable enough, creationists are not". With the OP I just wanted encourage knowledge and objectivity..

    <dust>: i love tea!!!
    <dust>: milky tea
    <three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
    <dust>: mm
    <three>: it's definitely not called neck
    <dust>: lol
    <three>: what's the word i'm looking for
    <dust>: throat
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #9 - June 05, 2011, 01:13 PM

    No no perhaps you mistake me, I agree that the quran was written for a certain time.  I agree that you need full understanding, this is why so many of us learn and learn and never stop learning.

    I learned more as an ex muslim than as a muslim.

    But because of its claim, that needs to be understood too.

    It is not timeless.  Sure he was right on many levels, but from a defnce for a muslim POV (not you or him) it doesn't cut it becuase of the claim, and the claim that Islam is easy to understand and has been made that way.

    The quran claims this is possible itself.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #10 - June 05, 2011, 02:07 PM

    three44 wrote three posts, each one more confusing than other..lol., But that is o.k.,

    Quote
    three44  says :
    Hi all,

    I was recently in a discussion with an Islamic Studies professor and I gained a valuable insight that I wanted to share.

     would you mind sharing the name/links or works of that  Islamic Studies professor  you were discussing with dear three44?  

    Quote
    It often occurs that people point out Muhammad's flaws by pointing to immoral verses like 4:34 (wife beating), 4:11 (inheritance), 65:4 (how to divorce a prepubescent girl), and many more.
    I thought reading Tafsir would provide sufficient insight to judge verses, but this is not the case most of the time as we (or at least, I) tend to forget about the cultural/legal context of the time in which they were revealed.

    Let us forget for a moment what you think but  I am curious why would that Professor consider those verses as immoral?

    does that professor also think that these verses are immortal??

    Are they not reveled by Allah/God?? if they are, why should Allah reveal such immoral verses? Is Allah unable to think an alternate moral way of solving a given social/political/family problem??  

    Quote
    For example, issues such as child marriage and wife beating were existent, but Muhammad was the one to address them from a legalistic point of view (wife beating is a last resort, whereas earlier there were no rulings on this; prepubescent girls in marriage are given the same right as mature wives, being an obliged 3 month waiting period before one can divorce her).

    Then the verses are NOT from Allah/God but Muhammad's legalistic point of view to enforce HIS laws(NOT Allah God's law) for the purpose of ruling Arabian peninsula.,
    Quote
    In essence, scripture is, according to this professor, both a spiritual and ethical guide for a society at a point in time.

    So we don't need them now, we can freely those were Laws of Muhammad(NOT Allah) hence burn them or bury them in sand., Is that O.k.?/ can that professor do that?

    Quote
    I hadn't looked at the Quran like this before and it does put some things into perspective (which is necessary in a debate).

    There I agree with you, Quran, Islam must be looked-in in every angle.,   Quran should poked, screwed in every possible angle, including the angle  "That it could verse/words from Allah/God"  later  I will also show you much simpler angle..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #11 - June 05, 2011, 02:08 PM

    I'll paste his last to comments, maybe you'll see something different.

    Actually, I had a much higher opinion of the guy prior to you posting his latest comments.

    Arrogant sophistry at its finest.

  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #12 - June 05, 2011, 02:16 PM

    Yeah Berbs, I know what you mean. The past year was crazy for me, I learned a lot about Islam, but in my days as a rookie ex-muslim (apostate since September) I would jump to hasty conclusions without putting things into perspective. Even though I did read Tafsir to get a 'full' understanding.
    I would look at 4:34 as Allah allowing muslims to beat their wives. But I would take this amount of info as satisfactory and not take into account that in the early years of christianity women were probably off worse [no rulings on how to treat the wife in a dispute...unless I'm mistaking and there are such rulings?]

    Looking at certain verses as "addressing legal issues, and therefore resolving the problem [for that time]" changed my view on the Quran a bit and now allows me to form better (more complete) arguments in discussions.

    So it's clear that due to my lack of knowledge I had a wrong (or at least an incomplete) view on the verses. And there's no reason to think this wouldn't also apply to other questions concerning Islam, even the timelessness of the Quran. With that last part I mean: it could very well be that we have an incorrect understanding of what timelessness means according to Islam or other scripture (due to lack of knowledge, which leads us to see things narrow-minded, just like my example of 4:34 above).

    I hope it's somewhat clear, I'm having a hard time expressing myself on this..

    <dust>: i love tea!!!
    <dust>: milky tea
    <three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
    <dust>: mm
    <three>: it's definitely not called neck
    <dust>: lol
    <three>: what's the word i'm looking for
    <dust>: throat
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #13 - June 05, 2011, 02:23 PM

    Well let us read through three44 2nd post..

    Obviously I raised the same question in the discussion, and his answer was "No scripture can, in its textus receptus form be applicable for every time. which is why the jurists came up with 'taghyeer al ahkaam li taghyeer al azmaan wa'l makaan'. But they applied this to sunna, not to quran. Fazlur rahman came up with the double movement theory..read about this in his "islam and moderntiy"."  

    Well you are mentioning very important character in the Pakistan's life. Incidently there are many  well known Fazlur rahmans.,  I know you are NOT talking about this pot belly.



    But very sophisticated person who  was appointed that  "Fazlur rahman" as Director of the Central Institute for Islamic Research by the then  General turned President Mr. Ayub Khan .

    please carefully read about the works of that "Fazlur rahman"
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/531762/posts

    Islam and Modernity: Transformation of an Intellectual Tradition by Fazlur Rahman
    Quote
    I personally don't agree with this at the moment, but then again, I'm not a scholar and not in a position to judge on what the Quran ought to be. (his words)

    I agree you are NOT in a position to judge., but what scholarly knowledge do a person really need to judge a book whether is is from God/or not??

    Quote
    In an earlier discussion I mentioned Muhammad's sayings are not what you would expect from a prophet of god, but he pointed out that what we as noobs (not in these words exactly) think the definition of a prophet is, is not correct necessarily correct and pointed me to other scripture for the definition (Samuel something, didn't check it out).

    His point is basically that people who don't have a full understanding of Islam in its entirety are just trying to poke holes in scripture, without objectivity. And that's why academics don't discuss religion like we do.[/u]

     that is sophisticated way of saying "It is bull shit" but you should respect it as there are billion followers..

    Quote
    I agree with him on that, because we can't be objective if we are not educated on all aspects that touch on Islam, and that was basically the point of my post. That we shouldn't argue as if we have mastered the Quran by reading a Tafsir or two of a couple verses, but try to bring it in perspective and that way argue more objectively.

    In a nutshell what he wanted to say, if you want to debate on religion: keep educating yourself.

    No..No..No you should read WHOLE BOOK.. all 114 chapters.,

     I read it at least 10 times by now and some individual whole chapters more than 10 times..   It is a open book, It doesn't take more  than a day a chapter(An average)

    with best
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #14 - June 05, 2011, 02:25 PM

    Quote
    in a culture where women were not even thought of having souls, as per the church fathers.


    WTF?  What kind of an ignorant racist were you talking to?  The church fathers have never thought women didn't have souls.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #15 - June 05, 2011, 02:49 PM

    Boy with this you confused the hell out of me dear three44  
    I feel that you guys are being a bit unreasonable. This guys is not even muslim in the strict sense. I never felt he defended Islam in an irrational, hopeless way. To the contrary, all he does is promote historical knowledge and lays out ground rules for an objective debate. I'll paste his last to comments, maybe you'll see something different.

    If you look at Muhammad as the character of that time and the book is for the people living in & around Arabia of that time ., As a Lawyer, that professor can defend it, you can and I can.  BUT NOT AS WORD OF ALLAH/GOD..

    Quote
    This comment I got after saying God's plan does not make sense if you ask me, why like this, not like this, bla bla
    "Sorry dude.. i did not ask you. YOuobviuosly have your way of looking at things. And you are right...you are not entitled to make judgments especially when they come from a background of lack of knowledge. Simple. Wife beating does have more than just economic consequences...and think of this coming in a culture where women were not even thought of having souls, as per the church fathers. SInce you seem so quick to jude...here is how I see it...not that it matters. If one does not know his/her religion, and then gives it up because of whatever complex, one should have the decency to not adduce stillborn arguments. If you don't know the language of the document, the cultural anthropology, nor even the role of a prophet except for what YOU assume it ought to be...when as I showed you, Samuel 1 would give you a different idea, then you see why professors and other academics have a certain attitude. Put it this way: if you were in my class, and I were to ask you ..do you know this rule, or that rule, or such a law..and you did not...or even the etymology of the word "prophet" and your answers showed that you did not, how you would look. Instead you are tossing around terms like 'acrobatics" and now "apologetic"...I can throw terms like "illogicaL" "uneducated" "back at you..but why bother? As I have noted several times before: you are entitled to your views. What i find ridiculous is your judging and talking about if you were God what you would do. Perhaps you should try focuising on what you are...a human with an admittedly limit data base in a particular field. IN such a case, one observes and keeps one's opinions. To engage others leads to statements that might seem condescending. And then when you don't know the basics of hermeneutic and the history of legislation as far semitic religion goes, then you see why this becomes from the very get go, a jejune encounter."

    What all that stuff makes is Quran as a legal document Political Islamic ideology that may have been started by Muhammad(In FACT I DOUBT THERE WAS a character called "Muhammad")  

    Quote
    What I replied was something that he's got me and I should learn more about the history before and during Islam

    That is fine I agree with him.. here are the links

    History in connection with Violent/Non-Violent expansion of Islam

    [Prophet Muhammad-1]

    You can read many thread at http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=18&topicdays=0&start=0
    Quote
    "It is not a matter of defeat or victory...for one has to go into a discussion with the idea that perhaps Muhammad may have been a prophet..as well as he may have been a charlatan. But such judgment is only reflective of objectivity if one has a background in study that is truly investigative.

     No..No..No you can not say that

    perhaps Muhammad may have been a prophet  and Allah was chit chatting with him..
     he may have been a charlatan.
    he may have been cult leader
    he may have been sex obsessed dirty old man
    ..etc..etc...
    That is NOT allowed in Islam.
    Quote
    If I come with the viewpoint that Muhammad is a prophet, or there is a god, no matter what is said and done that sounds idiotic from their edicts, then it is just as wrong. Thus far, while I have used the word God..my focus is one the verse qua verse, based on human history and anthropology....which is why I respect the older scriptures and do not accuse them of corruption...something many Muslims love to do."

    The simple to question to ask is ..WHAT IS NEW IN THIS MOST RECENT Allah book that you can not find in other scriptures that were ther before the birth of Muhammad?
    Quote
    Again, I said in my earlier post I don't agree with the 'timelessness of the Quran with those adaptations of sunna', but his point is (probably) that I shouldn't immediately dismiss that as nonsense, or someone trying to bullshit himself out of something. That's not very objective and honest, and I agree with him on that.
    Rest assured that my atheism is not affected at all. It's just a matter of correctly debating to me, I think that's also important.

    I agree that debating correctly-TRUTHFULLY is very important.

    Quote
    It's (somewhat) like creationists trying to attack evolution on its weaker points without knowing enough about the basics of the theory. Yes, our arguments against Islam are more probably less ignorant then theirs against evolution, but see the knowledge as a continuum, not as "we are knowledgeable enough, creationists are not". With the OP I just wanted encourage knowledge and objectivity..

    well it is not that relevant to Islam. That is only comparative investigation of other religion w.r.t to Islam.

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #16 - June 05, 2011, 03:14 PM

    three44 wrote three posts, each one more confusing than other..lol., But that is o.k.,
    Please don't mock me, like I said in my previous post, I find it difficult to explain. It's also all based on recent events, so I'm still thinking about this stuff


    would you mind sharing the name/links or works of that  Islamic Studies professor  you were discussing with dear three44?
    Since I wrote about his personal beliefs in an earlier post I can't give out his name. But he's a professor at Western university and has published about a dozen journal articles, co-author of couple of books, and some other stuff. I also found articles interviewing him, he seems legit, don't worry about that.


    Let us forget for a moment what you think but  I am curious why would that Professor consider those verses as immoral?
    does that professor also think that these verses are immortal??

    He didn't give his opinion on the verses, he simply responded with other questions about the matter, that should be taken into account when judging the verses. His point was again, as always, socio-cultural context


    Are they not reveled by Allah/God?? if they are, why should Allah reveal such immoral verses? Is Allah unable to think an alternate moral way of solving a given social/political/family problem??
    That is open for debate. But to properly debate about this, one needs to be educated about Islam and theology in general (and as shown above, own perceptions of what timelessness means is not objective, limited knowledge goes against objectivity, ...). That's why academics don't argue about Islam like we do, and that is true, you have to admit..

      
    Then the verses are NOT from Allah/God but Muhammad's legalistic point of view to enforce HIS laws(NOT Allah God's law) for the purpose of ruling Arabian peninsula.
    Not necessarily (I agree, it's very likely and that's also what I think). But that's the whole point: we have our own thoughts of what a prophet should or should not do, what he is sent for, etc. But in order to discuss this (and thus be able to say, Muhammad was not a prophet for this and for that), one should know (according to the professor) what the very definition and purpose of the prophet is according to scripture. This provides for an objective basis to work from... only then does it make sense to say "Muhammad was / was not a prophet for this and this reason, because this and that contradicts such and such the purpose of the prophet, ...". The objective basis that both parties can rely on, that is the main point of this whole post.


    So we don't need them now, we can freely those were Laws of Muhammad(NOT Allah)
    You don't have to use them if you don't want to, no. But scripture builds on each other and evolves. The verses I quoted are, in comparison to older scripture, an improvement for society because the Quran addresses these issues and sets guidelines, whereas previous scripture did not (although the issue of child marriage is also addressed in the Mishnah according to the professor; but in Christianity it definitely isn't). And perhaps the Quran is holy in a sense that it provided as the basis for the sunnah, and as mentioned above, the Sunnah is not necessary restricted to the 7th century because of
    No scripture can, in its textus receptus form be applicable for every time. which is why the jurists came up with 'taghyeer al ahkaam li taghyeer al azmaan wa'l makaan'. But they applied this to sunna, not to quran. Fazlur rahman came up with the double movement theory..read about this in his "islam and moderntiy"."

    In order to correctly argue the Quran is not timeless, you should be aware of the existence of such works (I wasn't) as they lay out an objective basis to start from concerning timelessness of the Quran, and their content and make your case include criticism of those works, and NOT simply by saying "Muhammad was a barbarian who punished people by having them stoned to death, therefore the Quran is not timeless, therefore Muhammad was not a prophet". Such an argument is based on ignorance of Islam as a whole.


    This is how I interpret what the professor said (unsure if this is what he meant, but I think it's close) and I find that it makes sense.

    <dust>: i love tea!!!
    <dust>: milky tea
    <three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
    <dust>: mm
    <three>: it's definitely not called neck
    <dust>: lol
    <three>: what's the word i'm looking for
    <dust>: throat
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #17 - June 05, 2011, 03:14 PM

    So it's clear that due to my lack of knowledge I had a wrong (or at least an incomplete) view on the verses.

    Let me get this clear. You were unaware of the fact that Quran can be interpreted in its historical context - that of the 7th century Arabia?
    Where for example (4:34) the nature of interpersonal dynamics in a marriage was completely different?

    Btw did you understand my second post in this thread?

    Quote
    limited knowledge goes against objectivity

    Knowledge is always limited hence there is no objectivity. He is refuting his own arguments.
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #18 - June 05, 2011, 03:25 PM

    please carefully read about the works of that "Fazlur rahman"
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/531762/posts

    I will check them out once I have more time, thanks for the link yeez
    Did you read? Any impressions?


    I agree you are NOT in a position to judge., but what scholarly knowledge do a person really need to judge a book whether is is from God/or not??
    A person decides for himself what he believes or not and for what reasons. This thread is about when people decide to discredit a religion as unholy.


    that is sophisticated way of saying "It is bull shit" but you should respect it as there are billion followers..
    I disagree, see whole thread.


    No..No..No you should read WHOLE BOOK.. all 114 chapters.,
    I read it at least 10 times by now and some individual whole chapters more than 10 times..   It is a open book, It doesn't take more  than a day a chapter(An average)

    You're right, I should and I'm planning to do so, I didn't have time this semester. But Islam does not end where the Quran ends.


    <dust>: i love tea!!!
    <dust>: milky tea
    <three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
    <dust>: mm
    <three>: it's definitely not called neck
    <dust>: lol
    <three>: what's the word i'm looking for
    <dust>: throat
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #19 - June 05, 2011, 03:37 PM

    Let me get this clear. You were unaware of the fact that Quran can be interpreted in its historical context - that of the 7th century Arabia?
    No, obviously I was aware it should be interpreted in its context. The problem is I mostly got context from Tafsir (Maududi writes extensive explanations) and I'm not well educated in what exactly 7th century Arabia is and how things went down.


    Knowledge is always limited hence there is no objectivity. He is refuting his own arguments.
    Correct. But the more you learn, the better and more complete/valid your arguments are. The least you can do is adhere to how Islam defines itself and by what standards it regards itself as holy and criticize with that knowledge in mind, instead of going by what your own perception of certain aspects of the Quran are (for example timelessness as mentioned above).


    Hope you guys aren't hating on me or think I'm talking absolute nonsense..

    Yeez, I'll have to get back at you another time man, you post way too much/fast Tongue

    Btw Kenan, I also found he was somewhat arrogant in his replies, but I guess he's a busy man and he also posts in the same fashion, so I don't take it personal, because I don't think I angered him or he was looking down on me.

    <dust>: i love tea!!!
    <dust>: milky tea
    <three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
    <dust>: mm
    <three>: it's definitely not called neck
    <dust>: lol
    <three>: what's the word i'm looking for
    <dust>: throat
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #20 - June 05, 2011, 03:44 PM

    No, obviously I was aware it should be interpreted in its context.

    Except that it shouldn't be. Because that would be un-Islamic.

    This sort of issues were already discussed here. Have a look: Progressive Islam

    "The problem with all these positions is that they (often unwittingly) adopt a subjectivity that is "foreign" to Islam (or, for that matter, Medieval Christianity). There's nothing morally wrong with that -- just insincere in its claim to authenticity."

    Also here - in detail; a brilliant article imo: A Christmas Nasheed: Saba Mahmood, Progressive Islam, Postcolonial Subjectivities and Hajar



  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #21 - June 05, 2011, 04:00 PM

    Three44 - you were talking to somebody who doesn't know the first thing about European or Christian history, and accepting a lecture off him about looking at the Qur'an in its historical context.  He's not qualified to put it in its historical context in the first place, and you should have checked your facts before you assumed he was.

    Go back and ask him to explain that ignorant nonsense about the Church fathers thinking women had no souls.   Roll Eyes

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #22 - June 05, 2011, 05:11 PM

    Hope you guys aren't hating on me or think I'm talking absolute nonsense..


    Not at all man, you are being real with yourself. Smiley but you got schooled :p.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #23 - June 05, 2011, 10:47 PM

    Yeah Berbs, I know what you mean. The past year was crazy for me, I learned a lot about Islam, but in my days as a rookie ex-muslim (apostate since September) I would jump to hasty conclusions without putting things into perspective. Even though I did read Tafsir to get a 'full' understanding.
    I would look at 4:34 as Allah allowing muslims to beat their wives. But I would take this amount of info as satisfactory and not take into account that in the early years of christianity women were probably off worse [no rulings on how to treat the wife in a dispute...unless I'm mistaking and there are such rulings?]

    Hang on a second: WTF does Christianity have to do with it? If Islam is going to offer good advice on how women should be treated, then it should offer good advice regardless of what anyone else is doing. This guy you are talking to is employing classic BS deflection tactics: "Oh well the Christians were worse back then so Islam rocks kthnxbai."

    Even if, hypothetically, Christianity said all women should be boiled alive in oil WTF does that have to do with Islam? What the Christians were or were not doing at the time is completely irrelevant to what Islam should have been doing.

    Let's face it: by modern western standards the treatment of women under Islam is crap. If Islam really did want to ensure women were treated well then it should have proposed standards at least as good as modern ones.

    Three44 - you were talking to somebody who doesn't know the first thing about European or Christian history, and accepting a lecture off him about looking at the Qur'an in its historical context.  He's not qualified to put it in its historical context in the first place, and you should have checked your facts before you assumed he was.

    Go back and ask him to explain that ignorant nonsense about the Church fathers thinking women had no souls.   Roll Eyes

    Also that. yes

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #24 - June 05, 2011, 11:21 PM

    Quote
    Quote
    yeezevee wrote: No..No..No you should read WHOLE BOOK.. all 114 chapters.,
    I read it at least 10 times by now and some individual whole chapters more than 10 times..   It is a open book, It doesn't take more  than a day a chapter(An average)

    three44  says:  you're right, I should and I'm planning to do so, I didn't have time this semester.

    Reading Quran should not take any any time dear three44., It is simple straight forward book if you read objectively with your own abilities to dissect it. It is true it gets complicated if we look in to different tafsirs from different people.. But a plain reading should not take much more time.  Let us pick a   translation and let us read it in its entirety.  For that I am going to start a thread just for your sake.   I have read it number of time with different folks on internet and in house..
    Quote
    But Islam does not end where the Quran ends.

    Off course It doesn't .  But you have to realize .,  WITHOUT QURAN THERE IS NO ISLAM., So for any one,  Muslims or non-Muslim To understand Islam one must read Quran irrespective what Muslim do or did..  That is the first step.

    with best
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #25 - June 06, 2011, 12:07 AM

    Ok guys, the questions keep on coming and I have nobody's support, so it's 1 not too clever dude against CEMB it appears Tongue
    Here's what I'll do: I'll check out the links anyone posted and consider what you all said.
    After my exams, we'll pick it up again when I've thought things through.

    Yeezevee: by read the Quran I mean really try to study it. This involves getting the background on every verse. True, online tafsir by Jalalayn for example gives very brief clarification of verses, but the tafsir by Maududi I've got stored here is all together well over a thousand PDF pages in small print, so yeah, it does take some time and dedication (for me in any case).

    Thanks for the feedback!

    <dust>: i love tea!!!
    <dust>: milky tea
    <three>: soooo gentle for my neck (from the inside)
    <dust>: mm
    <three>: it's definitely not called neck
    <dust>: lol
    <three>: what's the word i'm looking for
    <dust>: throat
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #26 - June 06, 2011, 12:31 AM

    Notice his arguments! Eureka!

    When he mentioned "womens didn't have souls according to the Church Fathers" (something which i doubt is true - i am not defending Christianity or some religious nutjobs who lived before). But when a Muslim apologist use statements like that its usually meant to make the case for Islam better.

    It`s like:  "Look dude: Women didn't even have souls according to the Christians at that time - but Islam changed that by seeing womens as humans - but with lesser intellect then men, ergo Islam got way better women rights! High Five!"

    The following question should be asked that scholar (read: Muslim apologist) regarding women rights and the Pre-Islamic society: How do you explain that womens like Khadījah bint Khuwaylid was successful businesswoman if the society she lived in was that misogynistic?

    I believe - no correctly i know that Muslims over exaggerate when they are talking about the Pre-Islamic society in Arabia. There is probably some truth in what is said: That it was misogynistic, wife beating was allowed, child marriage and female infanticide happened. But we have to remember that the only source for this is primarily Muslim sources. And when history is written by the winners its usually filled with lies and some half-truths. A bit like this Aesop fable:

    Quote
    A Man and a Lion traveled together through the forest. They soon began to boast of their respective superiority to each other in strength and prowess. As they were disputing, they passed a statue carved in stone, which represented "a Lion strangled by a Man." The traveler pointed to it and said: "See there! How strong we are, and how we prevail over even the king of beasts." The Lion replied: "This statue was made by one of you men. If we Lions knew how to erect statues, you would see the Man placed under the paw of the Lion."

        One story is good, till another is told.


    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #27 - June 06, 2011, 02:42 AM

    No no perhaps you mistake me, I agree that the quran was written for a certain time.  I agree that you need full understanding, this is why so many of us learn and learn and never stop learning.

    I learned more as an ex muslim than as a muslim.

    But because of its claim, that needs to be understood too.

    It is not timeless.  Sure he was right on many levels, but from a defnce for a muslim POV (not you or him) it doesn't cut it becuase of the claim, and the claim that Islam is easy to understand and has been made that way.

    The quran claims this is possible itself.


    Me too, I learnt more about Islam and Islamic history as an ex-muslim than did when I was a muslim.  The Koran is nothing more a reflection of Mohammad's ideas and an effusion of his emotions.  Part of it is also a narrative on political situation prevalent in  7 CE Arabia.
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #28 - June 06, 2011, 02:51 AM

    Ok guys, the questions keep on coming and I have nobody's support, so it's 1 not too clever dude against CEMB it appears Tongue
    Here's what I'll do: I'll check out the links anyone posted and consider what you all said.
    After my exams, we'll pick it up again when I've thought things through.

    I realize that many of you are students, some are 17 year olds. so DO NOT EVER NEGLECT EDUCATION for the sake of educating others in Quran on forums like this one.  It can wait and it will wait until you guys settled and secured financially in some jobs.  And  I would love to hear All A grades in your tests dear three44.. DO NOT WRITE IN TO THE FORUM but just read whenever you get bored with your tests and books..

    Quote
    Yeezevee: by read the Quran I mean really try to study it. This involves getting the background on every verse.

    I have done that I went through that Quran exogenous rumblings of that INDIAN BABOON



    In fact he is the very important  reason why Pakistan is where it is today....   No...No.no., Any intelligent high school student will do much better job than that fellow in understanding and inquiring about Quran. Those guys who worked with Quran and died before the end of 20th century before the internet age ARE FOOLS.. that goes to me also and goes to that pot belly  Maududi.
    Quote
    True, online tafsir by Jalalayn for example gives very brief clarification of verses, but the tafsir by Maududi I've got stored here is all together well over a thousand PDF pages in small print, so yeah, it does take some time and dedication (for me in any case).

    Thanks for the feedback!

    You don't need to store that nonsense in small print,.  It is on line in BIG print dear three44..

    Good luck and best wishes with your semester exams
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Judging Muhammad and scripture
     Reply #29 - June 06, 2011, 02:57 AM

    Me too, I learnt more about Islam and Islamic history as an ex-muslim than did when I was a muslim.  The Koran is nothing more a reflection of Mohammad's ideas and an effusion of his emotions.  Part of it is also a narrative on political situation prevalent in  7 CE Arabia.

    The secret of Islam was/is.. "THERE WAS NO MUHAMMAD" dear Mullah Rock.

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »