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Theme Changer

 Topic: Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource

 (Read 11503 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource
     Reply #30 - April 07, 2014, 09:39 AM

    good stuff on this thread

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource
     Reply #31 - April 07, 2014, 09:50 AM

    I wanted to add an article by Skeptic Shaykh to this thread in which he addresses evolution and Islam and the new thing being peddled by some that evolution is true except for humans. Such a shame his work has disappeared from the internet, that guy was so good.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource
     Reply #32 - April 07, 2014, 06:40 PM

    Adey5

    Heh. The thing about the Ibn Khaldun quotes is that they're completely decontextualised ( and tendentiously so, as the passage between them would blow the whole idea to bits if it wasn't  omitted ) from a very long discussion about the types of supernatural perception that are encountered in the world, and how it is possible for a prophet to "connect" with the angelic world ( the pinnacle of the scala vita ) thereby. Anyone who actually bothers to read the section  ( the sixth prefatory note ) in Ibn Khaldun, and has some background in the way that neo-platonised aristotelian categories are used in medieval thought would understand perfectly well that the idea of biological evolution is completely foreign  ( and abhorrent ) to Ibn Khaldun; he's simply constructing an elegant and elaborate ladder of creation on the classical Aristotelian model so as to "prove" that it's possible for the "prophetic" human to partake in the angelic realm and be the conduit of revelation. Elsewhere - in his discussion of racial types - we can definitively see that Ibn Khaldun does not have a conception of biological inheritance, and simply doesn't understand the idea of the transmission of heritable characteristics from parent to child.

    Ibn Khaldun wasn't a scientist, let alone a biologist or observer of the natural world, in any modern sense of the term - he was a historian, metaphysician, judge and political administrator.

    Adey5


    Fair enough, and you are absolutely correct, but he was certainly onto something and could see a relationship between living organisms.  However you are correct that he makes some biological errors as outlined in bold below with my comments in [brackets]


    "This world with all the created things in it has a certain order and solid construction. It shows nexuses between causes and things caused, combinations of some parts of creation with others [crocoduck?], and transformations of some existent things into others [morphing species?], in a pattern that is both remarkable and endless.


    One should then take a look at the world of creation [er, woteva]. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner, to plants and animals. The last stage of minerals is connected with the first stage of plants, such as herbs and seedless plants. The last stage of plants, such as palms and vines, is connected with the first stage of animals, such as snails and shellfish which have only the power of touch. The word 'connection' with regard to these created things means that the last stage of each group is fully prepared to become the first stage of the newest group.

    [animals did not descend from plants, nor plants directly from minerals but they share a common ancestor ' You are correct he sees this change as a ladder not a tree]


    The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man. This is as far as our (physical) observation extends.



    We explained there that the whole of existence in (all) its simple and composite worlds is arranged in a natural order of ascent and descent, so that everything constitutes an uninterrupted continuum. The essences at the end of each particular stage of the worlds are by nature prepared to be transformed into the essence adjacent to them, either above or below them. This is the case with the simple material elements; it is the case with palms and vines, (which constitute) the last stage of plants, in their relation to snails and shellfish, (which constitute) the (lowest) stage of animals. It is also the case with monkeys, creatures combining in themselves cleverness and perception, in their relation to man, the being who has the ability to think and to reflect. The preparedness (for transformation) that exists on either side, at each stage of the worlds, is meant when (we speak about) their connection.

    Plants do not have the same fineness and power that animals have. Therefore, the sages rarely turned to them. Animals are the last and final stage of the three permutations. Minerals turn into plants, and plants into animals, but animals cannot turn into anything finer than themselves."


    [it seems he is suggesting that modern species descend from modern other modern species, which is of course not the case as we all know that modern species derive from ancient species that are no more].

    All in all it was not a bad effort, and he had probably never even seen a fossil.

    But to ANYONE who claims this is science from the Quran or proof that Islam is in any way true must need their head examined.

    The poster of the original video is making a fallacious statement that just because someone who is Muslim discovers something, that somehow validates the religion of that person.

    Of course we can all see straight through that, but the believers will fall for it hook, line and sinker.


    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource
     Reply #33 - April 07, 2014, 06:54 PM

    I'm wondering if the discussion on Islam and evolution deserves its own thread.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource
     Reply #34 - April 07, 2014, 07:06 PM

    I dunno, I think its fine where it is. Seems to cover the thread topic. Smiley

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource
     Reply #35 - April 07, 2014, 07:07 PM

    I'm wondering if the discussion on Islam and evolution deserves its own thread.


    In any case, Islam has NOTHING to say on evolution so it would be an empty thread. All that can be said is that the Quran is wrong on the issue. End of thread really.  Smiley

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource
     Reply #36 - April 07, 2014, 07:29 PM

    Adey5

    Heh. The thing about the Ibn Khaldun quotes is that they're completely decontextualised ( and tendentiously so, as the passage between them would blow the whole idea to bits if it wasn't  omitted ) from a very long discussion about the types of supernatural perception that are encountered in the world, and how it is possible for a prophet to "connect" with the angelic world ( the pinnacle of the scala vita ) thereby. Anyone who actually bothers to read the section  ( the sixth prefatory note ) in Ibn Khaldun, and has some background in the way that neo-platonised aristotelian categories are used in medieval thought would understand perfectly well that the idea of biological evolution is completely foreign  ( and abhorrent ) to Ibn Khaldun; he's simply constructing an elegant and elaborate ladder of creation on the classical Aristotelian model so as to "prove" that it's possible for the "prophetic" human to partake in the angelic realm and be the conduit of revelation. Elsewhere - in his discussion of racial types - we can definitively see that Ibn Khaldun does not have a conception of biological inheritance, and simply doesn't understand the idea of the transmission of heritable characteristics from parent to child.

    Ibn Khaldun wasn't a scientist, let alone a biologist or observer of the natural world, in any modern sense of the term - he was a historian, metaphysician, judge and political administrator.


    Just to back up Josephus here. If one looks at the whole chapter you will see reference to the 4/5 elements based on Neo-Platonised Aristotelian concepts; water, earth, fire, air and aether (soul). He is just repeating Greek ideas in order to present a case for prophet-hood not evolution. Also the highest form of plants do not become the lowest forms of animals. The basic cell structure between animals and plants are different. Organism which became dogs was set into motion millions of years ago at the micro-cellular level. The basic cells of animals and plants are so different the idea that a tree will become a mouse is nonsense. A change from plant to animals happens at this level, micro-cellular, not fully developed, and specialized, plants we observe today. As Josephus said, evolution is a tree, not a ladder.
  • Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource
     Reply #37 - April 07, 2014, 08:08 PM

    it is interesting how the videos and articles are so convincing but relooking at that video it actually doesnt give any facts about evolution nor does it give any evidence from quraan.

    It's a clever way of saying fuck all.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource
     Reply #38 - April 08, 2014, 10:24 AM

    Adey5

    Not quite - and this is why the intellectual background of medieval neo-platonised Aristotelianism is crucial to understanding the passage, as well as reading the whole of the 20 odd page section in which it occurs. Ibn Khaldun is dealing in ontological categories ( note the use of the term essence, which is the clue ), and if you know your Plato and Plotinus, then you understand that different members of separate ontological categories can still overlap in some of their particulars - indeed they have to for Ibn Khaldun to demonstrate that a prophet can be the vehicle of an authentic revelation via the mediation of the angelic realm, which is the purpose of the section from which the passages are extracted. Now, does Ibn Khaldun think that angels evolve from prophets or that a prophet can transform into an angel? No, of course not.

    Think about the way the ladder is structured - why are palm and vine the highest point of the plant realm and why are snail and shellfish the lowest of the animal realm? It has nothing to do with biological relationships or any observational understanding of the natural world; although there is an interesting "social" aspect to the hierarchy here - palms and vines are grapes and dates, ie the most prized of the fruits, whilst snails and shellfish are the lowest forms of "meat", and eaten by the poor. Why is there a human social hierarchy embedded here?

  • Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource
     Reply #39 - April 08, 2014, 07:34 PM

    Hi Josephus,

    Well it seems you have studied the texts in full and have a better understanding than I have from my brief skim through just a small portion so I admit my ignorance.

    Aside from the connection to Plato and others, I was only pointing out that EVEN IF an apologist (as I am sure they will) were to take Khaldun's texts out of context, it still wouldn't get them to 'Evolution is in the Quran' or the Khaldun had discovered evolution as we know it.

    I really hadn't taken into account all the ontology stuff and was only taking the apologists claims at face value. If that claim ever comes my way again, I may well refer them straight to you for a more detailed criticism.  Smiley

    I appreciate the info though. Will trawl through the texts in more detail when I get time.

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource
     Reply #40 - April 10, 2014, 10:47 PM

    Hey bumpity. There's a vid I remember, but I can't remember who made it. It was an excellent (and quick) animated demonstration of how critters can evolve dramatically over time, to debunk the supposed dichotomy between "macro" and "micro" evolution. "Critters" used used were just little cartoon faces sort of thingies, evolving really fast, of no particular real species. It ended up making the point that macro is just accumulated micro.

    Reason I want to find it is because someone elsewhere is asking about teching the basics of evolution to young kids, and I thought this vid would be excellent for the purpose. I know it was on this forum at some point.

    Anyone got any clues?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource
     Reply #41 - April 10, 2014, 11:05 PM

    This one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRBHxJBUv_A
  • Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource
     Reply #42 - April 10, 2014, 11:15 PM

    No. It didn't have any South Park. IIRC it was by one of the "big names" in this sort of thing, but I can't remember which one.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource
     Reply #43 - April 15, 2014, 08:26 PM

    Hey bumpity. There's a vid I remember, but I can't remember who made it. It was an excellent (and quick) animated demonstration of how critters can evolve dramatically over time, to debunk the supposed dichotomy between "macro" and "micro" evolution. "Critters" used used were just little cartoon faces sort of thingies, evolving really fast, of no particular real species. It ended up making the point that macro is just accumulated micro.

    Reason I want to find it is because someone elsewhere is asking about teching the basics of evolution to young kids, and I thought this vid would be excellent for the purpose. I know it was on this forum at some point.

    Anyone got any clues?



    Hey Osmanthus, I think I may have found it, it was by Thundef00t.

    Is this the video? Scroll to about 3mins to see your 'critters'

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZwUV-auY4w


    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource
     Reply #44 - April 15, 2014, 08:27 PM

    That's the one! Thanks. Afro

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Evolution & Counter-Creationism Video Resource
     Reply #45 - April 15, 2014, 09:19 PM

    I pictured it straight away as soon as you mentioned 'The CRITTERZ"  Crystal Ball

    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
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