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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...

 (Read 8883 times)
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  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #30 - June 23, 2018, 06:19 PM

    Why did Stop Spamming repeatedly mention the Muslim Brotherhood?


    Why don't you ask me?

    I mention the Muslim Brotherhood a lot because they are a central distribution point of Islamic strategy worldwide. If people are not aware of this, I am more than happy to discuss this and exchange views and information. Maybe you should read what is available, at least what I found, the strategy on expansion in North America.

    -- Abdul Ala al-Ma'arri --
    There are two classes of men: intelligent men without religion and religious men without intelligence.
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #31 - June 23, 2018, 07:30 PM

    Maybe you should read what is available, at least what I found, the strategy on expansion in North America.

    ^ Pls share.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #32 - June 23, 2018, 08:40 PM

    It's 32 pages. Ah, found a link.

    https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2013/05/25/an-explanatory-memorandum-from-the-archives-of-the-muslim-brotherhood-in-america/

    -- Abdul Ala al-Ma'arri --
    There are two classes of men: intelligent men without religion and religious men without intelligence.
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #33 - June 23, 2018, 08:44 PM

    Thank you.

    Also, what do you think of SPLC's characterization of CSP?

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #34 - June 23, 2018, 08:50 PM

    Sorry, I have insufficient information to enable an opinion. I would need to read up on this to understand what this is all about.

    -- Abdul Ala al-Ma'arri --
    There are two classes of men: intelligent men without religion and religious men without intelligence.
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #35 - June 23, 2018, 09:03 PM

    They categorize the Center for Security Policy as one of those loony organizations (ex. Jihad Watch, Stop Islamization of America) that spew nonsense about stealth jihad, taqiyya, and what have you.

    Is that a mischaracterization?

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #36 - June 23, 2018, 09:08 PM

    Sorry, I have insufficient information to enable an opinion. I would need to read up on this to understand what this is all about.

    ah  Ha!  StopS  is here .. glad to read him...  Well  reading that link of  olweasel  is few minutes job........ SPLC's characterization of CSP?   So pleas read it .,

    anyways.. this  subject  you guys debating.... Muslim Brothel hood or centerforsecuritypolicy.org  are  entirely different and far away from the subject of The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam

    any way welcome to the den..
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #37 - June 24, 2018, 05:37 PM

    Getting back on topic...

    I fail to see how stating that there is no evidence for the existence of the Muhammad as described in the sunnah is an oversimplification. I think it is very precise and accurate.

    What about documents like the Constitution of Medina or letters to the heads of state?

    Were those forged? Or not strong enough evidence?

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #38 - June 24, 2018, 06:10 PM

    Getting back on topic...
    What about documents like the Constitution of Medina or letters to the heads of state?

    Were those forged? Or not strong enough evidence?


    yes.. yes  good point  olweasel


    letters and letter writing is important.............

    The letters of the prophet Muhammad(Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) To the kings beyond Arabia Late in the six year A.H., on his return from Hudaibiyah, the Prophet Muhammad , decided to send messages to the kings beyond Arabia calling them to Islam.
    In order to authenticate the credentials of his envoys,
    a silver seal was made in which were graven the words:
    "Muhammad the Messenger of Allâh"  


    [Sahih Al-Bukhari 2/872,873]


    Hmmm....  Quran is oral.... Hadith is Anal...I wonder what they used to write Prophet Muhammad PBUH  letters...  Hands ??  or...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #39 - June 25, 2018, 11:53 AM


    What about documents like the Constitution of Medina or letters to the heads of state?



    What about them? These are claims. Did ibn Ishaq really write something? What letters? All we have is hearsay. No, the answer is no, this is hardly evidence.
    I expect more tangible evidence, attested by multiple sources. Like we have of Alexander or Julius Caesar.
    Sorry, I am not aware of any real evidence that would convince me the Muhammad of the sunnah really existed.

    -- Abdul Ala al-Ma'arri --
    There are two classes of men: intelligent men without religion and religious men without intelligence.
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #40 - June 25, 2018, 03:19 PM

    Is that a blog?

    QSE  asks about this
    Cheesy  lol............  boy that is just few days hold

    Quote
    Javed Mahmood  1 day ago :

    Well I understood that historicity of Muhammed is now both a raising & burning question. Let's forget about Qur'an, Hadith, or the early biography of seventh century, not to mention the museum where you still can see almost everything he used to use from cloths to his belongings. Let us also Ignore his grave in Madina, one step forward let's ignore the Jewish written documents of Yemen.

    But I would like to point out one single written document from Sebeos who was an early seventh century Armenian bishop, and written down major events of 5th and 6th centuries as Chronicles.

    Let's look at the DEPARTMENT III.Chapter XXX.

    "At the same time, one of the sons of Ismail himself, named Mahmet Թանգանկար appeared to them, as if by the command of God, to preach the paths of truth between them, and taught them to know the God of Abraham. He was well versed in the history of Moses. Since the command was from above, then according to a single command, everyone turned to the unity of belief and left their vain services, they turned to the living God who appeared to their father, Abraham.

    Magomed legislated: do not eat carrion; do not drink wine; not to lie and not to commit adultery. He said: "God vowed this country to Abraham and his descendants after him, to eternal times. He fulfilled all that was promised, as long as he loved Israel. You are also Abraham's children. In your face, God will fulfill his vow to Abraham and his descendants; only love the God of Abraham, go and take the land that God gave to your father, Abraham. No one can resist you by war because God is with you. "
    Now what do you need more? A photograph? An Audio recording!
    The guy above provided so many false information about the basics of Islamic theology that I question myself- Is these are the reasons Muslims turn away from their religion? These are not only rubbish arguments but almost stupid in nature.

    hmmm..


    No  that is not from blog dear QSE .. it is under your post video link  

    but it is worth exploring and  i must answer those questions of Javed Mahmood

    Hmm   this is good one...

    Quote
    EACH nation has created a god, and the god has always resembled his creators. He hated and loved what they hated and loved, and he  was invariably found on  the side of those in power. Each god was intensely patriotic,and detested all   nations but his   own. All these gods demanded praise, flattery, and worship. Most of them were pleased with sacrifice, and the smell of   innocent blood has ever been considered a divine perfume.

    All these gods have insisted upon having a vast number of  priests, and the priests have always insisted upon being supported by  the   people, and the   principal business of  these priests has been to  boast about their god,and to insist that he  could easily vanquish all   the other gods put together.  These gods have been manufactured after numberless models,and according to   the most grotesque fashions. Some have a thousand arms,some a hundred heads,some are adorned with necklaces of  living snakes, some are armed with clubs, some with sword and shield, some with bucklers, and some have  wings as  a cherub; some were invisible, some would show themselves entire, and some would only show their backs ;some were jealous, some were foolish, some turned themselves into men, some into swans, some in to bulls, some into doves, and some into Holy Ghosts, and made love to  the   beautiful daughters of  men. Some were married— all   ought to  have been—and some were considered as  old   bachelors from all   eternity. Some had children, and the   children were turned into gods and worshiped as   their fathers had been .Most of   these gods were revengeful, savage, lustful, and ignorant. As  they generally depended upon their priests for information, their ignorance can hardly excite our astonishment.

    These gods did not even know the shape of the worlds they had created, but supposed them perfectly flat



    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #41 - June 27, 2018, 12:49 PM

    I am new to this particular group? What have I missed?
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #42 - June 27, 2018, 05:43 PM

    What letters? All we have is hearsay. No, the answer is no, this is hardly evidence.

    Letters like the following:



    ^ This was allegedly written to the governor of Bahrain.

    Is this letter authentic? Or was it invented later on?

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #43 - June 27, 2018, 11:57 PM

    The letter is hardly genuine. Most - if not all - scholars would reject these letters as later writings. As you can see, the scripts is not hijazid and thus cannot be from the time of Muhammad. Although, I should mention that there is a recent study arguing for the authenticity of these letters:

    Ahmed El-Wakil - The Prophet’s Treaty with the Christians of Najran: An Analytical Study to Determine the Authenticity of the Covenants, Journal of Islamic Studies, Volume 27, Issue 3, 1 September 2016, Pages 273–354. Accessible: http://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1093/jis/etw027

     
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #44 - June 27, 2018, 11:59 PM

    StopS - The Constitution of Medina is document that most scholars - including revisionists - consider to be authentic, and there good reasons for thinking so. Patrica Crone accepted it and made a good case for that. 
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #45 - June 28, 2018, 09:41 AM

    Would you like to chat with/debate him?


    I just saw your question. Sorry for answering so late. Not sure. What are we even going to debate? How are we going to debate?
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #46 - June 28, 2018, 09:48 AM

    Quote
    I fail to see how stating that there is no evidence for the existence of the Muhammad as described in the sunnah is an oversimplification. I think it is very precise and accurate. But by all means, go ahead and educate me.


    Just saw your comment. Before I answer your question, what is your position? Is it that there was no historical Muhammad, or that the Muhammad of the Sira did not exist? Huge difference. My impression - and I apologize if I misunderstood your position - was that you denied that Muhammad's historicity, and not simply dismissing the later Arabic sources representation of Muhammad's life.

    Quote
    I don't recall ever mentioning "Quranic Studies", mainly because I don't know what that covers.


    This might be somewhat irrelevant, because I am not sure if you mentioned this in the video, but since the topic was brought up, here goes. On several occasion you have made comments about the Sanaa palimpsest and Gerd Puin. You said that the latter had not published anything on the palimpsest and that there was some sort of cover up.  G. Puin had already published something very brief on the palimpsest already in 1996. His wife, E. Puin, was the first one to actually study them and she first published her article in 2008. Ever since then, E. Puin has kept on publishing on the manuscript. Aside from her, several other scholars have also studies and published their findings on the palimpsest. 

    I say all this with all due respect. Hope there is not animosity between us.
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #47 - June 28, 2018, 12:16 PM

    Letters like the following:

    (Clicky for piccy!)
    ......................

     dear olweasel   y u do dis?  y 1 pic Letr 1ly?
    Quote
    In Pictures: Prophet Mohammed  PUBH’s letters that were sent to rulers
    Quote
    Letter-1

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Prophet Mohammed, peace and prayer be upon him, sent several letters to kings and rulers outside the Arabian Peninsula to invite them to Islam.In a letter sent to Egyptian ruler Al-Muqawqis in the sixth year of hijri, the prophet invited him to Islam and said if he becomes a Muslim, Allah will double his reward.

    Quote
    Letter-2

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    The prophet PBUH also cited the surah: Say, ‘O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah.’ But if they turn away, then say: ‘Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].’

     
    Quote
    Letter-3
    (Clicky for piccy!)

    The prophet PBUH also sent letters to Emperor Ashama ibn Abjar in Ethiopia, Heraclius, the emperor of the Byzantine Empire, Chosroes, the king of Persia, Munzir ibn Sawa, the ruler of Bahrain, Himyarite Harith, the prince of Yemen, and Harith Gassani, the governor of Sham.
     

    Quote
    Letter-4
    (Clicky for piccy!)
    The prophet’s letters inviting kings and princes to follow Islam were all concluded with the statement: If turn away, you will bear the sin of your followers.
     

    Quote
    Letter-5
    (Clicky for piccy!)

    According to some historic narratives, Chosroes of Persia tore the prophet’s letter. When the prophetPBUH  heard that, he promised the destruction of Chosroes and the latter died shortly after and the empire weakened.

     
    Quote
    Letter-6
    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Some of these letters are kept in the Istanbul museum while the Medina Museum in Saudi Arabia keeps the original copies of these letters.
     

     
    Quote
    Letter-7
    (Clicky for piccy!)
     

     
    Quote
    Letter-8
    (Clicky for piccy!)
     

     
    Quote
    Letter-9
    (Clicky for piccy!)
     


    PS:   Just to  remind olweasel and you all Ex-Muslim  ...you all  Atheist Muslims  and  Muslims that doubt Islam and...and those recent converts  ....

    All  u  guys and girls who  become proper  Muslims and invite others in to Islam
      Allah will double his reward...
    Double Jannah time ..  144 raisins instead 72.....  
    and please think about after life... .

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #48 - June 28, 2018, 12:50 PM

    ..................The Constitution of Medina is document that most scholars - including revisionists - consider to be authentic, and there good reasons for thinking so. Patrica Crone accepted it and made a good case for that.  

    1.  did you read that Madina constitution dear Mahgraye?

    2.  when and where was that Madina constitution published first?

    3. And please give some  names of  famous Islamic scholars that consider it to be authentic.

    4. And please give the source for that dr. Patrica Crone's work where she writes that Madina constitution is authentic from Prophet Muhammad PBUH..

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Myth of Mecca-the Myth of Muhammad and The Myths in Islam...
     Reply #49 - September 16, 2018, 02:50 PM

    So today's BBC  that  Rustam Qobil of BBC who often writes articles on Islam of  Central Asia to China  Uighur Land  writes something about Early Islamic story of Prophet's times which I didn't know   .. well let me learn about that...

    Quote
    Uzbekistan: Land of a thousand shrines

    Uzbekistan has aspirations to become a second Mecca, a destination for pilgrims from all over the world. Central Asia's most populous country boasts a wealth of well-preserved mosques and shrines in famous silk road cities like Samarkand and Bukhara. For millions of Uzbeks these are sacred places. But for the Uzbek government they also represent an opportunity to boost tourism as the country opens up after decades of isolationist, authoritarian rule.

    Samarkand is home to dozens of magnificent tombs. Notable figures like the emperor Tamerlane, the astronomer Ulughbek and Kusam Ibn Abbas, the cousin of the Prophet Muhammad, who brought Islam to this land in the 7th Century, are all buried here.

    Quote
    But there is one grave that is unlike any other. Every morning hundreds of people climb a hilltop on the outskirts of the city to visit an oddly shaped, elongated tomb, surrounded by pistachio and apricot trees among the ruins of the old city. The air is filled with birdsong and the murmur of prayers. Families share lunch on the benches and young couples take selfies nearby.

    But among the pilgrims are not just Muslims, because this tomb is believed to be the last resting place of the biblical prophet Daniel, or Daniyar as Uzbeks call him. "Muslims, Christians and Jews come here and say their prayers according their own religion," Firdovsi, a young guide explains. "St Daniel was a Jew but our Muslims respect him as he was the prophet of Allah."


    Uzbekistan boasts hundreds of shrines across the country, many of which were neglected or closed during the time of the Soviet Union.

    "Central Asian Islam is quite flexible, inclusive and mixed with local traditions," Khurshid Yuldoshev, a former religious school student says. "That's why religion is interpreted more tolerantly. The tradition of visiting shrines is benign and part of our culture and has nothing to do with political Islam; these pilgrims are peaceful."


    well that and more is there at that today's BBC article but I am more interested in  Kusam Ibn Abbas, who was apparently  the cousin of the Prophet Muhammad, who apparently brought Islam to Uzbekistan in the 7th Century, 

    well we learn about him in the next post

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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