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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Is deism a subset of atheism?
  • Yes - its part of it and a branch of atheism
  • No - its a distinct & separate category
  • Dont know

 Topic: Is deism a subset of atheism?

 (Read 9434 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #60 - April 12, 2011, 07:37 PM
    Quote
    And so what would we call someone who doesn't believe gods exist?

    Yeah, Q already said what i would have said

    Quote from: Ishina on April 12, 2011, 03:51 PM
    Yes, and theism means belief that at least one god exists. Deists believe at least one god exists.

    Unless you disagree with the Oxford Dictionary defintiion of a deist

    Quote
    =belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe


    In the context of deism lets use the word creator (or if you prefer a non-interventional supreme being).

    Also I think I'd prefer to stop confusing the issue by using the word 'God' which is a loaded term (used in the context of religions, specifically a personal one, as the definition of deism I posted already showed). 

    Otherwise I'd have to say no, because the term you are using biases the discussion.  If you use the word creator then I wold say yes.
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  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #61 - April 12, 2011, 07:42 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on April 12, 2011, 03:46 PM
    A strong atheist.

    Um, no, because that's not the definition of that word. Atheism simply means a lack of theism, therefore deists are atheists. There is a disconnect between the working definition of the word atheist and the literal definition, hence the confusion on this topic.

    Yes, there's no point of in defining atheism/desim/god to mean what we think it means, which is why I posted the definition earlier.  Unless the Oxford definition is disputed, then I will take it as read from here on in..
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  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #62 - April 12, 2011, 07:43 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 12, 2011, 07:42 PM
    Yes, there's no point of in defining atheism/desim/god to mean what we think it means,


    Why not?
  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #63 - April 12, 2011, 07:52 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 12, 2011, 07:37 PM
    In the context of deism lets use the word creator (or if you prefer a non-interventional supreme being).

    Also I think I'd prefer to stop confusing the issue by using the word 'God' which is a loaded term (used in the context of religions, specifically a personal one, as the definition of deism I posted already showed). 

    Otherwise I'd have to say no, because the term you are using biases the discussion.  If you use the word creator then I wold say yes.

    Whether you term it God, creator, all-father, supreme being, divine mind, universal architect, space phantom, celestial founder, cosmic wizard, sand wraith, sky daddy, desert spectre, Grandmaster Flash, or Ringo Star - it'd still be the same conversation.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #64 - April 12, 2011, 07:52 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on April 12, 2011, 03:48 PM
    Surely the existence of a god is the most salient point in the religion vs atheism debate, in which atheists and deists are diametrically opposed.

    No for me these outmoded inflexible and often ethically questionable practises are my greatest bug bear.  

    Somebody who believes in an powerless irrelevent creator is no concern to me, particularly as it comes with a full appreciation of evolution & science as far as we 'know' today.

    And to me this is the greatest thing that atheism stands for, and the alternative definition leads to the confusion and splits atheists from agnostics.  (btw many of your deist arguments could imply that agnostics are not a subset of atheism/vice versa which afaik is not the case but another discussion)
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  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #65 - April 12, 2011, 07:55 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on April 12, 2011, 07:43 PM
    Why not?

    words would lose their meaning making dictionaries & language redundant
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  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #66 - April 12, 2011, 07:58 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on April 12, 2011, 07:52 PM
    Whether you term it God, creator, all-father, supreme being, divine mind, universal architect, space phantom, celestial founder, cosmic wizard, sand wraith, sky daddy, desert spectre, Grandmaster Flash, or Ringo Star - it'd still be the same conversation.

    No it wouldnt, because the way you worded it biases your conclusion.  The question you posed earlier gave 2 answers for me, yes & no, depending on which term you chose.
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  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #67 - April 12, 2011, 08:02 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 12, 2011, 07:52 PM
    No for me these outmoded inflexible and often ethically questionable practises are my greatest bug bear.  

    Somebody who believes in an powerless irrelevent creator is no concern to me, particularly as it comes with a full appreciation of evolution & science as far as we 'know' today.

    And to me this is the greatest thing that atheism stands for, and the alternative definition leads to the confusion and splits atheists from agnostics.  (btw many of your deist arguments could imply that agnostics are not a subset of atheism/vice versa which afaik is not the case but another discussion)

    Theism/atheism is a matter of belief, not politics. Both those categories share a wide spectrum of politics, colours, creeds, goals, agendas. Individuals within both categories might hold respect for science or evolution, or secularism, or whatever.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #68 - April 12, 2011, 08:05 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 12, 2011, 07:58 PM
    No it wouldnt, because the way you worded it biases your conclusion.  The question you posed earlier gave 2 answers for me, yes & no, depending on which term you chose.

    Tell me, in what practical way is your 'creator' different to 'a god', in the context of this discussion?

    In what way does substituting your word 'creator, for my word 'god', create a bias?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #69 - April 12, 2011, 08:06 PM
    God has religious connotations for me, whereas creator doesnt
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  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #70 - April 12, 2011, 08:07 PM
    Islame, how would you define theism?
    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

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  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #71 - April 12, 2011, 08:09 PM
    without looking it up again, belief in a personal/religious God
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  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #72 - April 12, 2011, 08:11 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 12, 2011, 08:06 PM
    God has religious connotations for me, whereas creator doesnt

    Ok, in that case, substitute the word god for creator in each one of my posts in this thread.

    The rest of the words remain the same, in either case. My position remains the same, in either case.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #73 - April 12, 2011, 08:11 PM
    Fuck, some members on here are dumb as fuck! wtf.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #74 - April 12, 2011, 08:13 PM
    Quote from: GodIsNotGreat on April 12, 2011, 08:07 PM
    Islame, how would you define theism?


    Personally, I'd define it as a belief in the supernatural. 
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #75 - April 12, 2011, 08:15 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 12, 2011, 07:55 PM
    words would lose their meaning making dictionaries & language redundant


    Words have the meaning agreed up on between speakers. There are already a multitude of definitions for these words and the OED is no more authoritative than any other source.
  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #76 - April 12, 2011, 08:17 PM
    Anyone who says, deism is part of atheism is a dumb piece of shit.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #77 - April 12, 2011, 08:43 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 12, 2011, 08:09 PM
    without looking it up again, belief in a personal/religious God

    The OED definition of theism is: "belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe." In other places they don't include mention of the deity being a personal one. Anyway I think you're looking at it in a very binary way--that people fall into two categories: theism and atheism. That's not the correct way of seeing things. Just because someone rejects theism, that doesn't necessarily make them an atheist. They're all distinct belief systems, if anything deism is a subset of theism.
    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #78 - April 12, 2011, 09:38 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on April 12, 2011, 08:15 PM
    Words have the meaning agreed up on between speakers. There are already a multitude of definitions for these words and the OED is no more authoritative than any other source.

    I dont have the time to define every single word I use here.  Unless those I am conversing with object to using oxford dictionary as an objective source, for the sake of moving a discussion forward & not getting hung up on definitions then I am happy to assume its not a problem.

    btw are you saying that if we both agree that a pig is an armadillo, then a pig is called an armadillo?
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  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #79 - April 13, 2011, 03:40 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 12, 2011, 09:38 PM
    I dont have the time to define every single word I use here.  Unless those I am conversing with object to using oxford dictionary as an objective source, for the sake of moving a discussion forward & not getting hung up on definitions then I am happy to assume its not a problem.


    Yeah but that's precisely why I'm making the point, people aren't agreeing with the OED definitions (I personally think they are far too simplistic).

    Quote
    btw are you saying that if we both agree that a pig is an armadillo, then a pig is called an armadillo?


    In the context of our conversation the word 'pig' would mean an armadillo yes, but I'm not sure why you would want to do that.
  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #80 - April 13, 2011, 03:50 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on April 13, 2011, 03:40 PM
    Yeah but that's precisely why I'm making the point, people aren't agreeing with the OED definitions (I personally think they are far too simplistic)

    Ive not heard that contention yet, but if they do then we would need to move the discussion back a step & settle upon a definition that we can all agree on, along with reasons why its more acceptable & less arbitrary than the oxford dictionary as a source. 

    The impression I get is many of the leading dictionaries come up with similar definitions so it would be to prove any other case I think.

    Quote
    In the context of our conversation the word 'pig' would mean an armadillo yes, but I'm not sure why you would want to do that.

    To prove that pigs are grey
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  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #81 - April 13, 2011, 03:56 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 13, 2011, 03:50 PM
    Ive not heard that contention yet, but if they do then we would need to move the discussion back a step & settle upon a definition that we can all agree on, along with reasons why its more acceptable & less arbitrary than the oxford dictionary as a source. 



    Hmm, well we would have to define the different degrees of atheism, and we will likely have to transverse into a psychological debate... which I personally cba with at the moment Tongue

    Quote
    To prove that pigs are grey


    That would only be true in our language (mine and yours) - that is, in the context of this conversation.
  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #82 - April 13, 2011, 04:06 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on April 13, 2011, 03:56 PM
    That would only be true in our language (mine and yours) - that is, in the context of this conversation.

    Cant you see why that would be pointless & silly, and any conclusions drawn would have to have a definition disclaimer on? 

    Otherwise I would be forced to define every single word in every single post. Which words would you use to define them?  Are you suggesting we would need to define them too?  As well as the words to define them (and so on & so forth)?

    I think it would be preferable to stick to real words, and generally most people realise dictionaries are used to define what words mean if they are unsure.   

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  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #83 - April 13, 2011, 04:11 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on April 13, 2011, 03:56 PM
    Hmm, well we would have to define the different degrees of atheism, and we will likely have to transverse into a psychological debate... which I personally cba with at the moment Tongue.

    Exactly, unless somebody is willing to put up a reasoned contention it makes more sense to use a well researched dictionary for these definitions that we agree on as they have probably already had these discussions as well as discussed the epytmolgy of the word.  Otherwise you'd never get off the ground.
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  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #84 - April 13, 2011, 04:13 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 13, 2011, 04:06 PM
    Cant you see why that would be pointless & silly, and any conclusions drawn would have to have a definition disclaimer on?  


    Such are the problems of language. I doubt the situation would arise where people would define a pig as an armadillo.

    Quote
    Otherwise I would be forced to define every single word in every single post. Which words would you use to define them?  Are you suggesting we would need to define them too?  As well as the words to define them (and so on & so forth)?


    No, we assume the meaning of most words (because we have to). But this discussion is hinged on the terms atheism, deism and theism. So we have to define those at least.

    Quote
    I think it would be preferable to stick to real words, and generally most people realise dictionaries are used to define what words mean if they are unsure.


    'real' words, lol. Words can be used to mean different things, and a lot of them require a whole load of unsaid assumptions. For unknown words then sure, use the dictionary, but if you are unsure of how someone is using a particular known word, the best thing to do is to ask them, for the sake of clarity. Otherwise you just end up talking past each other. Language is a tool, after all.

  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #85 - April 13, 2011, 04:15 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 13, 2011, 04:11 PM
    Exactly, unless somebody is willing to put up a reasoned contention it makes more sense to use a well researched dictionary for these definitions that we agree on as they have probably already had these discussions as well as discussed the epytmolgy of the word.  Otherwise you'd never get off the ground.


    People have put up well reasoned contentions in this thread.
  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #86 - April 13, 2011, 04:17 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on April 13, 2011, 04:15 PM
    People have put up well reasoned contentions in this thread.

    Not against the definition, they've mostly put up their own definition of it & took their argument from there.  When challenged with the OED definition, not one said OED was wrong.
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  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #87 - April 13, 2011, 04:18 PM
    OED is wrong.
  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #88 - April 13, 2011, 04:20 PM
    Do you have a link to that definition btw,, I can't seem to find it  Huh?
  • Re: Is deism a subset of atheism?
     Reply #89 - April 13, 2011, 04:31 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on April 13, 2011, 04:13 PM
    Such are the problems of language. I doubt the situation would arise where people would define a pig as an armadillo.

    No, but discussion might arise when somebody might say e.g. 'atheists know there is no creator', and on the basis of it come up with a whole set of misleading conclusions.

    Quote
    No, we assume the meaning of most words (because we have to). But this discussion is hinged on the terms atheism, deism and theism. So we have to define those at least.

    Agreed.  Either contend them or if you cant be bothered, then dont worry about it.

    Quote
    'real' words, lol. Words can be used to mean different things, and a lot of them require a whole load of unsaid assumptions. For unknown words then sure, use the dictionary, but if you are unsure of how someone is using a particular known word, the best thing to do is to ask them, for the sake of clarity. Otherwise you just end up talking past each other. Language is a tool, after all.

    Exactly - thats why I defined the words using the dictionary quite early on in the discussion as there seemed to be no common consensus on the defintions.  And there was no objections, nor did I think there would be as its a fairly standard , universally agreed upon & ubiquitous definition.  

    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on April 13, 2011, 04:20 PM
    Do you have a link to that definition btw,, I can't seem to find it  Huh?

    I posted the link earlier, search for atheism, deism & god in www.oxforddictionariesonline.com or something like that
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