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Theme Changer

 Topic: Impotent Cosmogony

 (Read 14986 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Impotent Cosmogony
     OP - April 07, 2011, 05:34 AM

    Cosmogony is the study of the origin of the cosmos, in its entirety. There are many theories that are presented to explain the origin of everything, from both (but not always) a theological or a scientific ideological foundation. There are however, certain things that any theory of cosmogony must include to be valid. These are:

    1. A metaphysical explanation of the coming-into-being of the cosmos. This is necessary because space-time or the domain of the ‘physical’ is the very thing that requires explanation and therefore, cannot bear the burden of accounting for the causal explanation of itself. This also means that the causal account of the cosmos must take an ontological form and not a time-dependent form – in other words, it is not enough of an explanation for the universe that the cause is prior in terms of time, but rather it has to be ontologically causal.

    2. The explanation of the cosmos must explain every single aspect of the cosmos and nothing can be left as a brute fact of reality without explanation. If a theory so wishes to have brute facts that are beyond the explanatory powers of the thesis, then that theory must provide a non-arbitrary and independent reason for having such brute elements as part of the theory. It could also be that the theory upholds a view that the coming-into-being of the cosmos must necessarily have parameters that are beyond every explanation but if this is the case then the theory must explain this view using ontological and not physical means.

    (The above mentioned clauses for any valid theory of cosmogony have made a distinction between the understanding of the term ontological and the term physical. By physical is meant any concept that involves the parameters of space/time/mass/energy. These are opposed to ontological concepts such as universals.)

    It is for these reasons that the following article is so disappointing: (http://www.bigquestionsonline.com/columns/michael-shermer/the-biggest-big-question-of-all). It is unfortunate that this article attempts to present ten different competing theories that attempt to answer the cosmogonic question but that the vast majority fail the two tests that are mentioned above.

    It begins by presenting an orthodox Judeo-Christian understanding of the ‘creation’ of the cosmos and refers to this theory as an untestable hypothesis because a ‘Creator’ being naturally metaphysically prior to the space-time continuum cannot be understood through epistemic means. This is a curious charge. One wonders what exactly would count as an answer seeing as every answer of ‘Why is there something rather than nothing?’ must naturally assume that whatever caused the cosmos as it is must be metaphysically prior and thus by necessity be outside of scientific parameters. This is not to say that this essay agrees with the theistic view, but rather that it conforms to the criteria above and as such, can be an answer.

    The second answer presented is the view that there is no cosmogony theory needed as the question it presupposes need not be answered. This is a perfectly valid mode of reasoning as it is true that the question of the origin of the universe only needs to be answered if it is assumed that there was an origin to the universe in the first place. Though this reason can be disputed in lieu of the first criteria above, in that it is possible to still demand an ontological answer for the existence of anything even if it exists forever, this will be explained further below.

    It is however, the next eight answers that provide inadequate theories of cosmogony that fail the criteria set forth above for a valid explanation.  They are scientific explanations that are at the cutting edge of today’s scientific pursuit of Physics. Many of them have highly technical names that intimidate the outsider, names such as ‘The Grand Unified Theory’, ‘The Many-worlds Multiverse’, ‘Quantum Foam Multiverse’ and ‘M-Theory Grand Design’ being just a selection. However, none of these theories manage to answer the question posed.

    Read the rest here: http://theophaniac.wordpress.com/2011/04/07/impotent-cosmogony/

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #1 - April 07, 2011, 07:49 AM

    Hmm. Methinks thou shouldst lower thy expectations.

    Cosmogony is the study of the origin of the cosmos, in its entirety. There are many theories that are presented to explain the origin of everything, from both (but not always) a theological or a scientific ideological foundation. There are however, certain things that any theory of cosmogony must include to be valid. These are:

    1. A metaphysical explanation of the coming-into-being of the cosmos. This is necessary because space-time or the domain of the ‘physical’ is the very thing that requires explanation and therefore, cannot bear the burden of accounting for the causal explanation of itself. This also means that the causal account of the cosmos must take an ontological form and not a time-dependent form – in other words, it is not enough of an explanation for the universe that the cause is prior in terms of time, but rather it has to be ontologically causal.

    First thing is that it wont be "prior in terms of time" because time is a property of this universe. It didn't actually exist before the universe started.

    Quote
    2. The explanation of the cosmos must explain every single aspect of the cosmos and nothing can be left as a brute fact of reality without explanation. If a theory so wishes to have brute facts that are beyond the explanatory powers of the thesis, then that theory must provide a non-arbitrary and independent reason for having such brute elements as part of the theory. It could also be that the theory upholds a view that the coming-into-being of the cosmos must necessarily have parameters that are beyond every explanation but if this is the case then the theory must explain this view using ontological and not physical means.

    Ok, so consider this more carefully. It seems that what you are effectively demanding here is a logical and consistent explanation..................

    ..................that evades the constraints imposed by Godel's Theorem. That wll be an amusing little quest.

    Now, exactly how is this part going to work?
    Quote
    It could also be that the theory upholds a view that the coming-into-being of the cosmos must necessarily have parameters that are beyond every explanation but if this is the case then the theory must explain this view using ontological and not physical means.


    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #2 - April 07, 2011, 09:46 AM

    Cosmogony ..............

    what Cosmogony??  ., that sounds like  Agony of Life.. Snake eating its own tail    terrible.,



    what kind of nonsense is that get over that Enjoy the life. what are you the member of that Theosophical Society of that Russian lady Helena Blavatsky'??



    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #3 - April 07, 2011, 05:52 PM

    Hmm. Methinks thou shouldst lower thy expectations.
    First thing is that it wont be "prior in terms of time" because time is a property of this universe. It didn't actually exist before the universe started.


    I think you are agreeing with me here. Sorry for being unclear but that's what I meant, you can't rely on a temporal account of causation, it has to be something else.

    Quote
    Ok, so consider this more carefully. It seems that what you are effectively demanding here is a logical and consistent explanation..................

    ..................that evades the constraints imposed by Godel's Theorem. That wll be an amusing little quest.

    Now, exactly how is this part going to work?


    What I had in mind here was a property of the universe that is seen as brute. For instance, Hawking thinks that the law of gravity is enough to spontaneously start the universe but he doesn't explain how it is that the law of gravity itself comes to exist. What I am asking for is a non-arbitrary and non-question begging reason for us to accept that law as brute and ontologically prior to the cosmos.
    It doesn't have to be that law. Dualists who think that the mind is ontologically seperate from the rest of the universe need to explain how the mind came to be in a non-arbitrary manner as well. And so on with every theory that has brute factors.
    I understand that Godel's theorem states that no system of logic can explain every aspect of itself but I am not sure how much applicability Godel's theorem has outside of a strictly mathematical context - for instance, I know Godel himself despite his theorems upheld a somewhat theistic view as the cause of the universe.
    Also, if we are to subscribe to Godel's theorem in this case then it seems to me this question just cannot be answered at all and so no theory, whether scientific or theistic, will ever get the answer, it's an impossibility. I'm open to this possibility, I don't know if an answer is possible - however, my contention in that piece was not whether or not an answer is possible but to highlight invalid answers that shouldn't even be considered.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #4 - April 07, 2011, 05:57 PM

    Who the fuck u callin impotent? I kick yo ass.

    fuck you
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #5 - April 08, 2011, 02:59 AM

    I think you are agreeing with me here. Sorry for being unclear but that's what I meant, you can't rely on a temporal account of causation, it has to be something else.

    Ok.

    Quote
    I understand that Godel's theorem states that no system of logic can explain every aspect of itself but I am not sure how much applicability Godel's theorem has outside of a strictly mathematical context - for instance, I know Godel himself despite his theorems upheld a somewhat theistic view as the cause of the universe.

    It doesn't just apply to mathematics. It applies to any application of any logical process. If Godel was thestic he would not have been theistic because of logic as such, and I think he would have been aware of this.

    Quote
    Also, if we are to subscribe to Godel's theorem in this case then it seems to me this question just cannot be answered at all and so no theory, whether scientific or theistic, will ever get the answer, it's an impossibility.

    This is what I was getting at. You seem to be demanding a complete explanation, but that is an unrealistic demand. The best we can hope for is explanations that make things a bit clearer than they were before, not explanations that explain absolutely everything.

    Quote
    I'm open to this possibility, I don't know if an answer is possible - however, my contention in that piece was not whether or not an answer is possible but to highlight invalid answers that shouldn't even be considered.

    Fair nuff. I haven't read the links yet.


    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #6 - April 08, 2011, 10:12 AM

    I don't think those listed answers were supposed to address your question in its entirety. There is no wonder they are invalid answers.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #7 - April 09, 2011, 02:07 AM

    z10, I'm not gonna pretend for a second to understand anything in the OP - so many words I knew long time ago... Why are you so smart, bro? Are you trying to take over the Science and Reason section now, after MaB has lost his mind from hay fever? Anyhow, I wonder, say you figure it all out, will it make us happy or will it make only you happy?

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #8 - April 09, 2011, 10:57 PM

    I don't think those listed answers were supposed to address your question in its entirety. There is no wonder they are invalid answers.


    Really? I think the question 'why is there something rather than nothing' is analogous to asking for the cause of the origin of the cosmos.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #9 - April 09, 2011, 10:58 PM

    z10, I'm not gonna pretend for a second to understand anything in the OP - so many words I knew long time ago... Why are you so smart, bro? Are you trying to take over the Science and Reason section now, after MaB has lost his mind from hay fever? Anyhow, I wonder, say you figure it all out, will it make us happy or will it make only you happy?


    I am not that smart, my friend, I have much to learn from many people here including yourself Smiley

    I don't know if finding out all the answers will make anyone happy. I also don't know if being happy should come into it. Surely we can want the answers for their own sake alone?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #10 - April 10, 2011, 08:53 AM

    Do you think we can find these answers with a load of dialectic, z10?
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #11 - April 10, 2011, 09:19 AM

    Do you think we can find these answers with a load of dialectic, z10?

    I think so., with the sufi mind set  and having dreams of sex with hypnotic  Goddess picture like these



    it appears such thinking will give the answers to Cosmos.. origin of universe  ..origin of life ..biology with ATP .. Cyclic universe.. starts from nothing goes in to nothing.....

     Some one should hit Z10 on the head  to  get him back to senses ., See this response to alex
    I am not that smart, my friend, I have much to learn from many people here including yourself Smiley

      that is INSULTING, terrible insulting  and what kind of kind of language is this??
    "I don't know if finding out all the answer ..
     I  don't know if being happy..
    I don't know the meaning of senses
    i don't know what Allah wrote for my lif
    I don't know.... "


    what kind of words are they??   get over that Sufi dopi.. get back to senses dear Z10..
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #12 - April 10, 2011, 09:21 AM

    "In the discovery of secret things, and in the investigation of hidden causes, stronger reasons are obtained from sure experiments and demonstrated arguments than from probable conjectures and the opinions of philosophical speculators."

    William Gilbert, De Magnete.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #13 - April 10, 2011, 10:03 AM

    Really? I think the question 'why is there something rather than nothing' is analogous to asking for the cause of the origin of the cosmos.

    That depends. Would a thorough explanation of how the universe came to exist satisfy your question of why the universe came to exist? If both those questions are essentially asking the same thing, would that thorough explanation be a valid answer for both those questions?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #14 - April 10, 2011, 04:56 PM



    "In the discovery of secret things, and in the investigation of hidden causes, stronger reasons are obtained from sure experiments and demonstrated arguments than from probable conjectures and the opinions of philosophical speculators."

    William Gilbert, De Magnete.


    What possible experiment can one devise that will allow us to step outside the physical to see the cause of the physical? I would think that in such a case, an experiment is impossible.

    Do you think we can find these answers with a load of dialectic, z10?


    Perhaps not. However, I think a sure philosophical foundation is necessary to know what the bad answers look like.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #15 - April 10, 2011, 04:57 PM

    That depends. Would a thorough explanation of how the universe came to exist satisfy your question of why the universe came to exist? If both those questions are essentially asking the same thing, would that thorough explanation be a valid answer for both those questions?


    Well, the question 'why is there something rather than nothing?' is asking for what reason something came to exist. The reason would be the cause of existence. How this cause occurred is not really what the question is asking, but rather the why. I am asking the same question.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #16 - April 10, 2011, 05:04 PM

    If the reason something came to exist is what you are looking for, and the reason something came to exist was because God caused it to exist, would that explain the why?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #17 - April 10, 2011, 05:17 PM

    If it is the correct answer, sure.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #18 - April 10, 2011, 05:19 PM

    If the reason something came to exist is what you are looking for, and the reason something came to exist was because it just happened, would that explain the why?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #19 - April 10, 2011, 05:23 PM

    If it is the correct answer, sure.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #20 - April 10, 2011, 05:26 PM

    Well, there ya go. Two answers free of charge. Take your pick.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #21 - April 10, 2011, 05:27 PM

    Thank you Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #22 - April 10, 2011, 05:30 PM

    If it is the correct answer, sure.


    Would that really explain the 'why' part, our would you then need to start addressing the question of how and why god exists; thus commencing the endless search that will eventually lead to an infinite stack of turtles?

    Hi
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #23 - April 10, 2011, 05:44 PM

    I think if I found that to be the correct answer then I would have found the answers to those questions too. If those questions cannot be answered then I don't think I would accept God as the correct answer.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #24 - April 10, 2011, 05:53 PM


    Perhaps not. However, I think a sure philosophical foundation is necessary to know what the bad answers look like.


    I'm inclined to think any answer on this topic that makes sense is a wrong answer.
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #25 - April 10, 2011, 06:04 PM

    Why drogba Prince?

    Hi
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #26 - April 10, 2011, 06:34 PM

    I'm inclined to think any answer on this topic that makes sense is a wrong answer.


    If you apply this to other issues then yeez is right about everything.

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #27 - April 10, 2011, 06:41 PM

    Why drogba Prince?


    Because I'm rediscovering my religious side and he is clearly god.
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #28 - April 10, 2011, 06:57 PM

     Maybe he is god, but it's a shame he has to currently share his throne with two other gods at chelsea... Footballing abilities aside, he still falls down too easily and whinges a little too often, to be considered truly divine.

    If you apply this to other issues then yeez is right about everything.

     Cheesy

    Hi
  • Re: Impotent Cosmogony
     Reply #29 - April 10, 2011, 07:13 PM

    ^ I see your love for yeez is fading fast too. We must talk.
     far away hug

    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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