Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 04:40 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Today at 02:45 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
Today at 12:50 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
Today at 04:17 AM

What's happened to the fo...
by zeca
Yesterday at 06:39 PM

New Britain
Yesterday at 05:41 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
Yesterday at 05:47 AM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 09:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 04:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:06 PM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 10:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 01:53 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Leaving Amish Paradise doc

 (Read 19230 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     OP - March 19, 2011, 10:39 AM

    Last Thursday, a documentary was aired on BBC2 titled 'Leaving Amish Paradise'. The title made me think it was gonna be about Amish apostates, but actualy it's about Amish being ex-communicated by the Amish community because they want to go to a different Church. So they remain Christians (or they would say: they become Christians). Nevertheless; good relaxation material! Worth watching.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00zmdg8/Leaving_Amish_Paradise/

     bunny
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #1 - March 19, 2011, 10:51 PM

    Yeah, I watched it.  Great programme.  I also watched the previous documentary a few years ago about the Amish (the same family before they were excommunicated) called: Trouble in Amish Paradise - back when I was a lonely closet apostate.  There are many parallels between isolationist Islamic communities and the Amish.  Although I accept the Amish are seriously cutoff from the outside world.  My sister (and most of my female relatives) wear the niqab and don't have many freedoms but at least they have internet access at home, which I think is great.  Never underestimate the power of the internet.

    The Amish issue raises many questions about multiculturalism, indoctrination, child abuse etc.  At what point does the outside world intervene and say that something is not acceptable, and a child's rights comes first?

    Also, as I watched this programme I felt that because of the indoctrination/conditioning/dogmatism (?) some excommunicated Amish still could not shake off Christianity.

    Also, it was sad to see that those who left the Amish churches (because it was very closed and cult-like) were still exhibiting intolerance and bigotry.  Undecided

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #2 - March 19, 2011, 11:41 PM

    Quote
    The Amish issue raises many questions about multiculturalism, indoctrination, child abuse etc.  At what point does the outside world intervene and say that something is not acceptable, and a child's rights comes first?


    In terms of the Amish and other smaller time isolationist cults this is becoming a bigger deal.  Most of the time is is hidden away by the veil of secrecy. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #3 - March 19, 2011, 11:48 PM

    Witness is a great movie.

    Never heard of the Amish before seeing that.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #4 - March 20, 2011, 12:02 AM

    The main guy in this documentary was a complete moron. He relied on God for everything, he thought that if he prayed and stayed dutiful to God, he'd get everything he required. His daughter had leukaemia and required chemo and medicine to cure her, instead he wanted to rely solely on God. Luckily the government forced him to get her treated. That really made me angry. Believe in God all you want, but when you try to do something as stupid as that, you should have your kids taken away from you.

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #5 - March 20, 2011, 12:33 PM

    I know I agree, it's the children we should be worrying about in these scenarios, the adults are already lost. What is bad is how much fear is instilled from such an early age on, so much so that they 'freely' choose to return to Amish life after a few years out. That's real power of indoctrination.. I guess that's the one thing they gained from moving from the Amish to that 'Charity church': they didn't have to be so afraid anymore of going to hell according to this new church.
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #6 - March 24, 2011, 01:55 PM

    j
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #7 - March 24, 2011, 02:52 PM

    What bigotry? What intolerance? Because the guy was against theme parks? LOL. You are a loon.

    No, I was thinking more of the shunning of a friend for not going to the same church. See 8:45 to 9:20 of the following video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn7OwBUEypA&feature=channel_video_title

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #8 - March 25, 2011, 09:33 AM

    e
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #9 - March 25, 2011, 09:37 AM

    ^ Time was when I played by the same confessional rules. A degree of suspicion attached to any mosque besides my own. They do not give the khutba in Arabic, they do not press their ankles together in prayer, they do not grow a fist-length beard. Anything and everything, large and small was reason enough to boycott a masjid. Among no class of men is there so vast an amount of hostility than the members of different mosques.  Not sects, but competing houses of worship. The schismatic impulse runs very deeply in the blood of the godly. One draws hope from this because a fragmented Ummah eternally set against itself is an impotent Ummah.  The surest way of kicking away the chair from underneath Islam and hasten its implosion is not to set up ex-Muslim groups of whom no one takes notice. The most efficacious way is to pour money and resources into  seeding as vast a number of discrepant Islamic schools all denouncing and damning the other with infernal objurgations.

    I believe in the subversion theory of godlessness.  

    Turning to the Amish.  You intimated that our friends here live in hermetic isolation from the fallen world . Why the vulgar lies Teapot? The Amish whom you compare to the forest-chins are in point of fact a good deal more liberal. The young are set loose when they come of age to explore the Devil’s universe all around them till, drinking, smoking  and whoring with godless abandon, they flush the devil out of their system completely and are ready to fully commit to the Victorian austerity of Amish living.

    Did your old man let you booze it up when you hit adolescence and run wild? Fuggedaboutit. That is what every generation of Amish guys and babes have done since man first lost his tail and climbed down from the tree.  They are not the prisoners of the popular imagination akin to the mobile tents that pass for women in the House of Islam. The community actually displays a sophisticated grasp of psychology: Temptation sated is temptation conquered. Classic.  You had better apologise. I won’t ask you again.



    Then how come I still see you on the corner wearing a pink wig and skating protective gear?

    Perhaps you drink from a bottomless well?
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #10 - March 25, 2011, 09:41 AM

    p
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #11 - March 25, 2011, 09:45 AM

    What about the rug you carry on your back? Surely you can use it as a combover instead of that preposterous neon-pink wig!
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #12 - March 25, 2011, 10:03 AM

    n
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #13 - March 25, 2011, 10:12 AM

     Cheesy i laugh in spite of myself.
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #14 - March 25, 2011, 10:30 AM

    k
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #15 - March 25, 2011, 11:08 AM

    It's a great watering hole. Don't kncok it till you've tried it. There, necking torrents and torrents of the finest Burgundy to ever water mortal lips, we can duke it out after which the victor carries the wounded back to his place to inspect the master bedroom. I wanna show you something special.


    No thanks I don't want to see the fungus on your big toes.
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #16 - March 25, 2011, 01:38 PM

    @Bison:

    Your argument about the Amish being less isolationist than the Muzzies is a FAIL!  It's true that Muslims are not given a taste of freedom in their late teens like the Amish are, but on the whole Muslims are allowed access to education, TV, radio, newspapers, leaflets, books, internet etc.  Even going to the supermarket for a niqabi in the West is a freedom that young Amish probably don't have.  As for Muslim men, well they get even more freedoms than their Amish counterparts.
    But I take your point about "Temptation sated is temptation conquered".

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #17 - March 25, 2011, 02:48 PM

    .
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #18 - March 26, 2011, 05:20 PM

    .

  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #19 - March 30, 2011, 03:33 PM

    Quote
    The point is that the Amish have a choice in the matter. There is no coercion. Emotional blackmail, yes. But a grown Muslim woman with twelve barefoot kids does not enjoy the fraction of the liberty afforded to an Amish girl let alone a young Muslima.


    But isn't the choice the same when it's still a matter of chosing between family/friends or freedom? I'd take your point when it comes to a Muslim country, in which case there is no 'alternative' to turn towards (unless you wanna immigrate) but in a Western world, I think the choice is very similar. You choose your freedom or your family. You may not be handed the choice as a Muslim, but you could still make it and the options are the same. Same for Jehova's Witnesses by the way. They get shunned from the community when they do something wrong (in the eyes of their community), and often don't get to see their family anymore afterwards.
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #20 - March 30, 2011, 03:48 PM

    ^...and let's not forget the scientologists. The presence of that stark choice, of contact with your nearest and dearest or intellectual and physical freedom, would appear to be a very effective attribute of some successful memes, if you'll excuse the use of such terms.

    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMDGikPmEyw).
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #21 - April 02, 2011, 07:38 PM

    .
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #22 - April 05, 2011, 08:53 AM

    Quote
    Muslim girls do not enjoy that privilege. Not just in Absurdistan. But in the suburbs of Ottawa, Paris and London. Amish girls do. They are free to sally forth into the wilder, greener fields of Freedom's Land when they come of age and have been afforded the opportunity to lead a normal twenty first century existence. A Fatima would be harassed by the community and sent leaping into the arms of God uninvited.

     

    In some cases I think you may be right, in the worst cases. I'm just saying that in many other cases, they can 'run away' too and built up a new life, and then leaving the old one behind is a choice.

    ^...and let's not forget the scientologists. The presence of that stark choice, of contact with your nearest and dearest or intellectual and physical freedom, would appear to be a very effective attribute of some successful memes, if you'll excuse the use of such terms.


    Scientologists are crazy.. Love reading about them. It’s true, they pester you for ages too if you decide to leave.
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #23 - April 06, 2011, 09:35 PM

    d
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #24 - April 07, 2011, 09:43 AM

    Which is why I said that in the worst case scenario, in which a Muslim girl (or boy) needs to run from home, you are right in saying it is a different case. In many other cases, however, I disagree that the psychological coercion to 'choose your family's preferences' is any different just because you're given a ritualistic choice. In the cases where the Muslim girls/boy knows that chosing non-religion means losing the family, but no other physical repercussions, which is the majority of the cases in the West (not saying anything about Muslim countries), then the waying of the benefits and costs is essentially the same and equally taxing. But to be honest, I don't even know why we're having this conversation if only for the intellectual exercise. I do not think one case is worse than the other - any situation is which a child is not unconditionally accepted by their parents is horrible - be it because the child is gay, not Amish, not Muslim, or a punk-rocker.
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #25 - April 07, 2011, 07:05 PM

    q
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #26 - April 08, 2011, 12:01 AM

    But to be honest, I don't even know why we're having this conversation if only for the intellectual exercise. I do not think one case is worse than the other - any situation is which a child is not unconditionally accepted by their parents is horrible - be it because the child is gay, not Amish, not Muslim, or a punk-rocker.

     Afro

    By the way, Mount A Bison, I think you are over-romanticising the freedoms that Amish teenagers get, but I can't be bothered to debate this silly non-issue much longer.  Let's just say both the Amish and Niqabi teens are under a lot of controls, most of which I would call: indirect controls. i.e. mind-control, hence body-control.  I mean: if you ask a niqabi teen in the West if she is being forced to wear the niqab, she will say "no".  The mullas figured out the trick a long time ago.  In the West you cannot force young women to do something sustainably.  It is far easier to brainwash the little fatimas to think that being the slave of Allah is virtuous and following the Prophet's (salla walla falla) commands is the best thing under the sun.  They even get to feel good and self-righteous about it.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #27 - April 16, 2011, 09:11 PM

    q
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #28 - April 18, 2011, 10:41 PM

    @Teapot

    I take umbrage that you call one Mount A Bison. You hurt my feelings. What happened to Bison? Or even the less attractive but tolerable initialism of MAB?  There is something altogether formal about the way you’ve addressed  me there.  You must not do that Teapot.  You might give the wrong impression to readers that we’ve separated and no longer bound by the intimacy of holy matrimony. Disgusting.

    Sorry Mr Well-Hung Bison, I just find it more tidy to write out people's full usernames.  I'm weird like that. wacko
    It will be Bison from now on, my sugarplum.

    Okay, it’s transparent by now that you are filled to the brim with odium for the Amish. I’ve tried to make your anger subsideth.

    I have no hate inside me for any of Gods chillun, my sugarplum.  I just think the Amish are a very closed cult-like group and one that I would describe as a victim of a mind virus (in the form of ideas), or memeplex, if you like.

    Anyway, being the curious freak that I am, I find their way of life interesting in that they are more likely to survive hyperinflation than modern society.  I remember watching an Amish documentary a few years ago and thinking that they have quite a sustainable lifestyle, albeit very backward one.


    I’m not aware of what facet of the Amish life I’ve embellished or romanticised. I suppose that you are alluding to the claim, observable and documentable, that the resurrection-men need not run away because they are cut loose upon reaching their teen years by the parents to dance with the Devil till they drop whereas Allah’s gang face coercion till they are old enough to leave home. Well, I thought we had agreed that was so before. Have you had a change of heart? How can I make the beat of your heart sound to my name again?

    I just got the feeling that you were trying to paint a very rosy picture that all Amish teens get lots and lots of freedom with no coercion, and I'm not sure I believe it fully.  I can't be bothered to go and research this at the moment.


    You speak of the techniques of control. Brainwashing. Indoctrination. And threats of cosmic damnation. If what you mean to say by that is the art of regimentation is multifactorial, that the Niqabi will defend her sartorial choice as piety freely chosen, we see eye to eye.  But from this truism you will not I hope infer that a ninja who veils out of a misguided notion about modesty is just as worse off as a woman who veils involuntarily. The decisive factor here is duress.

    I agree.

    The one lassie is physically inhibited from casting off her veil and the other is not. Among the Amish young there is none of the coercion habitually visited upon Muslims. To cast them in the same camp as the towelheads is to veil yourself from the true nature of things. Let me rip that niqab from your lovely eyes my little hamster.

    I'm not sure I believe this, my sugarplum.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Leaving Amish Paradise doc
     Reply #29 - April 18, 2011, 10:51 PM

    Actually, thinking about it... I think Amish parents have their work cut out.  They don't need to coerce their teens to do all the stupid things.  Most Amish live in isolated communities where the teens don't know of any other lifestyle, so don't even think of rebelling.  Only people exposed to outside influence think of rebelling.  Furthermore, if you know that rebelling is not going to be tolerated, you will not even bother.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »