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 Topic: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today

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  • Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     OP - March 07, 2011, 01:32 PM

    I added a brief post on this in another thread but maybe deserves it's own thread. I learned of this today on the rationalskepticism forum.

    Harun Yahya is touring various cities in the UK starting in London at 7.30pm tonight to tell lies about evolution theory and promote Islamic creationism and his scientific miracles nonsense. Free entry it seems.

    http://www.harunyahya.com/harunyahya_conferences_england_march2011.php

    Also see:

    http://bcseweb.blogspot.com/2011/03/creation-watch-harun-yahya-tours-uk.html
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #1 - March 07, 2011, 01:42 PM

    I find comedy on TV these days is mostly boring, so I am really looking forward to seeing one of these Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #2 - March 07, 2011, 01:42 PM

    This seems to be becoming a real 'raw nerve' issue amongst that section of Muslims that gets exercised by the raw nerve thing, and its not just salafis, as Dr Usama Hasan in London has discovered to his cost.

    A neat coincidence that as the Leyton imam's story is being highlighted in the media this tour is taking place, it would be great for some determined journalists to seek interviews and ask questions about the atmosphere they are contributing to in Britain's Muslim community, Dr Hasan, and their creationist views in general.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #3 - March 07, 2011, 09:10 PM

     He's going to be laughed at, and of course making Islam look even more stupid than it already is as seen by the rest of modern society. ;__;

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #4 - March 09, 2011, 09:56 AM

    My account of the event below.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #5 - March 09, 2011, 10:04 AM

    Harun Yahya (Adnan Okatar) was not there himself, instead the "show" was hosted by two other Turkish guys, one of which introduced himself as being a brain surgeon (as if that makes him an authority on evolutionary biology.)  This is how it went...

    Firstly, my video camera broke so I could not record it :(

    1: Darwinism is about how the strong overtake the weak, the stronger kill the weaker.
    2: This gave rise to Nazism, communism, Mao Zedong killing millions, and so on.
    3: Darwinism led to racism.
    4: Various quotes from Hitler, Stalin, etc
    5: Quote from Darwin about how civilised man with replace the savage - narrated as "White men will kill off and replace non-white men"

    Then he posted the following "problems" with evolution
    (Origin of life)
    A: Evolution cannot explain how life began in the first place.
    B The human cell is so complicated it cannot just suddenly appear by chance.
    C: The eye is so complicated that it cannot just suddenly appear by chance.
    D: Gives the Boeing 747 argument.

    (What are the mechanisms)
    A: Natural selection does not create new information - I noted that at this point he described it as the survival of the "best suited" and not the strongest. Someone attempted to give an example and was told he could ask questions at the end.
    B: The whole eye is required in order to work
    C: It is impossible to create new information, only Allah can create.
    D: Mutations are 99% harmful, 1% neutral, and NEVER add new information.
    E: After years of working with fruit fly mutations scientists failed to make a new species - then quoted the verse from the Quran about how mankind cannot even create a fly.
    F: Played this Dawkins video where Mr D apparently cannot give an example of new information in DNA receiving lots of laughter - I think it was changed to show a man asking the question.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaKryi3605g

    At this point I could no longer hold my tongue. I shouted out that it is fake, that the video was edited with a different question.  I was told to be quiet by the organiser, I protested again that he was spreading misinformation.  I was told I would have the opportunity to ask questions at the end.

    G: We were told that there isn't a single example of a beneficial mutation.
    H: He went on to describe the golden mean ratio. I was hoping he was going to say Mecca was at the GR point on the graticule location system so I could tell him it is over 270KM away, but he didn't.  Instead he tried to show it as proof of creation by telling us the distant from our noses to our chins etc.

    (Where are the fossils)
    A: ALL 350 million years of fossils we have are unchanged. The ones we find which we cannot identify are simply extinct animals.
    B: There are no intermediary fossils.  He actually showed a photo of crocoducks.
    C: Showed the Harun Yahya Starfish to Fish morphology and said there are no such "imaginary fossils" present in the record.
    D: Quoted Darwin saying the lack of fossils is a problem - implying there should be innumerable fossils.
    E: There are just too many gaps in the record.
    F: The Cambrian explosion shows fully formed creatures suddenly appearing, trilobites with over 2,000 eyes - and did you know that eyes cannot "just exist" unless created.  
    G: Quoted verse from Quran "Allah only needs to say 'Be' and it is" - Fossil record shows that Allah said "Be".
    H: At this point I noted he said that ALL species appeared at the Cambrian explosion and lots went extinct, but later he claimed something else so I'll have to check the video.
    I: Quotes Dawkins again saying that the fossils look as though the creatures were just placed there, leaves out the 2nd half of the quote.
    J: Trilobites were the first creatures to exist on Earth, trilobites have eyes, therefore a trilobite is irreducibly complex and must have been created.
    K: Showed Darwin's famous quote about how the eye is difficult to explain, but left out the rest of the quote where he goes on to say that he still thinks it did.
    L: Shows a picture of a creature crawling out of the sea onto land.  Top half life a lizard, bottom half in the water like a fish.
    M: Claims that for this to happen its gills would need to turn into lungs - if I recall he stated the usual crap about how if it were born with lungs it would have drowned in water.
    N: Fish fins would need to mutate into weight supporting limbs (implying that then it would not be able to swim.)
    O: Showed a fossil of a fish + a living version of the fish, which proves evolution does not happen.
    P: Tried to describe evolutionary stance on the origin of birds as so (the jist of it, not the actual words)

    "One day a dinosaur was chasing some flies.  It flapped its arms as it ran.  This made it develop feathers, and one day it flew.  But look, what is this in the picture? It is a FLY!  Why do they try to explain FLIGHT like this when there is already something flying?"

    Note how he changed the evolution of birds into a claim of how flight started.

    Q: He defined evolution of humans as small monkeys getting bigger and bigger until they were humans. The presented the existence of 4ft pygmies as proof that this is not true.
    R: Stated that frogs only turn into princes in fairy tales - was hard for me not to mention the verse in the Quran where Allah turned Jews into apes and pigs.
    S: Explains that hominid fossils are all fake.  They are really just extinct monkeys.  Articles (not scientists) build up fake flesh on them for pictures/photos and just use their imagination to make them look however they want.  Therefore it is all fakery.
    T: Piltdown man was on display for 40 years before it was discovered to be a fake.  "They" (the evolutionists) tried to fake it but got caught.
    U: Quoted Heckel confessing to forging his embryo illustrations and saying that his fellows should also be on trial for forgery. Commentated it that Heckel was a remorseful confessor trying to set the record straight and get his fellow conspirators exposed for their deception too.

    Then we moved onto questions - I will mark them Q & R (Question & Response) - the speaker responded, but I do not feel he gave answers...

    Q: Someone gave an example of moths which experienced a change in skin colour to match the colour of the bark on trees as the bark darkened over the years due to pollution.
    R: This is because the glue that was used to stick the moth samples down changed the colour.
    (Questioner later told me he heard chants from audience such as "Yeah, WE got you!")

    I asked a multi part question
    Q: I want to get your argument correct.  Are you implying that fossils are easy to make?
    R: Yes
    Q: And that all creatures were created in their current form in the cambrian explosion?
    R: Yes
    Q: Then were are the fossils of rabbits, and mice, and humans?
    R: Oh no, those were not created at the start
    Q: So are you then saying that simple life was created at the start, then more complex life, and then mammals, and then humans?
    R: Yes
    Q: So instead of saying "Be" and it was, Allah said "Be, be, be, be, be"?
    (Protests from the room for insulting their religion)
    Q: So, how do you tell the difference between a scenario where god created animals at various points in time, each time more complex; and the scenario where simply life started, gradually evolved over a long period of time into more complex life forms, and there are few fossils because fossils are hard to form.

    (I struggle to remember the order of his rebuttals, but I think they were in this order)
    R: Because the human cell is too complex to suddenly exist, and the eye is too complex to just exist
    Q: I didn't ask you about cells and eyes, I asked you about the fossils. How do you tell by looking at the fossils?
    R: Because the eye, blah blah blah, and the cell, blah blah blah
    (I am told to behave myself by the organiser, I protest that he is not answering the question)

    Him: Even Dawkins said they were placed there.
    ME: "No, he didn't say that at all.  He said they might APPEAR AS THOUGH they were placed there, but what you have done is to cut of the end of the quote where he goes on to say BUT.....and explain it, you are lying to these people"
    Him: How did he explain it then? How do YOU explain it?
    Me: The cambrian explosion was a period when hard bodied creatures started to exist.  Hard bodies fossilise easier than soft bodied creatures.  That's why it is easier to find the fossil of a massive dinosaur bone than it is to find the fossil of a bacteria!

    I think he then went on to talk about proteins, cells, and the eye again.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #6 - March 09, 2011, 10:09 AM

    Good job mate, seems like you did a good job countering this.
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #7 - March 09, 2011, 10:11 AM

    Wow, nice write up mate.

    Quote
    Q: So instead of saying "Be" and it was, Allah said "Be, be, be, be, be"?
    (Protests from the room for insulting their religion)


    hahaha ^^^


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #8 - March 09, 2011, 10:13 AM

    Quote
    R: Because the human cell is too complex to suddenly exist, and the eye is too complex to just exist


    This is the basic simpleton thinking that is the foundation of all creationist minds.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #9 - March 09, 2011, 10:22 AM

    Thanks for the report, very interesting. I hope more people go to the other events over the next few days and expose this guy like you did. Maybe you could post about this anti-evolution tour on richarddawkins.net? It's relevant and there may be readers in glasgow, dundee etc. who'd relish the chance to expose him too.
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #10 - March 09, 2011, 10:24 AM

    Nietzsche's characterisation of conservatives of all times being adventitious liars proven again. Well done for putting up with it - I don't think I'd have the patience!
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #11 - March 09, 2011, 10:30 AM

    S: (To the best of my recollection between laughing) You see the problem is that these paper publishers are controlled by the western media, and Jews....(I think he may have accused "The Pagans") too.

    Cheesy

    Ah, evolution of the eye reminds me of this nice demonstration Dawkins did a while back.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4742301713635559854#

    Thanks for this post, TR. Afro
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #12 - March 09, 2011, 11:36 AM

    Great account. I liked how you made him admit there was some sort of step-by-step process. Maybe they can call this creation-evolution, or intelligent-evolution?  Smiley
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #13 - March 09, 2011, 12:17 PM

    I have phoned Salford University and Dundee University today and warned them of the format of these events.  They thanked me for warning them, although both stated that they are not sure what they can do about it as it can get somewhat political if the event is cancelled.

    I suggested that if they cannot cancel they should put an evolutionary biology lecturer in the room, and advised that they object at each incorrect point rather than waiting for the questions white-wash session at the end.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #14 - March 09, 2011, 02:01 PM

    Good plan.
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #15 - March 09, 2011, 02:10 PM

    I wonder if Dr Usama Hasan is going to this?

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  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #16 - March 09, 2011, 03:04 PM

    Here's an account of the questions and answers from the lecturer at the University who sat next to me.  I'm quite pleased he mistook me for a biologist Cheesy

    http://plashingvole.blogspot.com/2011/03/anti-science-live.html
    http://plashingvole.blogspot.com/2011/03/whackjob-question-time.html

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #17 - March 09, 2011, 03:22 PM

    RT, your scientific knowledge is impressive for a layman (assuming you don't have a science background, sorry if incorrect)

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #18 - March 09, 2011, 03:45 PM

    I didn't attend further education, and didn't take biology after the age of 13.   I suppose you learn a few things debunking religious BS, but there is a shit load of room for improvement - I still make a lot of errors.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #19 - March 09, 2011, 04:24 PM

    There should have been 2 URLs in my previous post.  Updated!

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #20 - March 09, 2011, 04:40 PM

    'Every terrorist is a Darwinist'.

    What the hell is supposed to mean?  Huh?

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #21 - March 09, 2011, 04:44 PM

    There should have been 2 URLs in my previous post.  Updated!


    Good distinction the lecturer makes, its not survival of the fittest, its adaptation to niches.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #22 - March 09, 2011, 04:58 PM

    The guy knew it.  In the Nazi section he outright said that natural selection is "survival of the strongest, the strong can kill the weak" - and yet later he explicitly said "survival of the best suited".

    He knew he was lying.  At what price comes one's honesty?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #23 - March 09, 2011, 05:19 PM

    Quote
    At what price comes one's honesty?


    Islam pays more than honesty does for these kinds of snake-oil salesmen.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #24 - March 10, 2011, 12:14 AM

    Great stuff, TheRationalizer. Afro

    lol @ Allah said "Be, be, be, be, be"
    I'm a little surprised to see them making positive claims about creation happening at the cambrian explosion.  That sounds like it would open up a whole can of worms.


    Overall, it seems these guys are very fond of the strawman fallacy.

    Btw, I went to one of their lectures many years ago at university, (when I was a Muslim).  Most of the audience were Muslims and they distributed their books after the lecture. 

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #25 - March 10, 2011, 07:51 AM

    Unfortunately I forgot to ask "If Allah started life at the cambrian explosion, why do we have fossils of multi-cellular life over 100 million years before?"

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #26 - March 10, 2011, 10:28 AM

    that would've been a good 'un

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  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #27 - March 12, 2011, 01:59 AM

    ...
    E: After years of working with fruit fly mutations scientists failed to make a new species - then quoted the verse from the Quran about how mankind cannot even create a fly.



    Yeah but we can now create human organs from cells, and do cloning. Has religious fanatics shitting their pants cause we're coming to closer to doing what only God as been claimed to be able to do.

    Then again there is no arguing with him on the grounds that Allah created everything. Because we don't know the orgins of life no further than on a cellular level, or even why the universe exists. You just can't dispute blind assumptions on the greatest question man wants to know. But by that argument we can say the Flying Spaghetti Monster created life, or Jesus, or Christianity's God. There is no proof that the one called Allah made everything from scratch and he is unable to give proof further than it was written, in a thousand year old book. What about dinosaurs, which are not mentioned in any Holy text. BUT we have proof they existed. Something doesn't smell right here >_>;

    He'll never be able to prove that fossils are faked because EVERYONE else in this entire planet, EXCEPT for the tiny tiny tiny minority of creationists deny their existence. I would love to see him argue that bones are fake with a scientist. Never stand a chance. I'm sorry you just had to listen to all his bullshit and be shut off by his sheep followers. Best not to pay them no mind, these talks are biased and one sided. He's only having these talks to boost his ego because he knows the majority of his audience will agree with him and will drown out anyone who disagrees.


    Oh my last point and my main point

     Fossils exist, are found and are ACCEPTED by more people in more places than Allah/ Islam. Tongue

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #28 - March 12, 2011, 08:34 AM

    My hypothesis is this.  PressTVLondon is funded by Iran. They seem to like reporting on how "the west" treat Muslim lives as if they are worth less than anyone else's.  Looks to me as though they are trying to change the zeitgeist over here.

    (bear with me)

    Now with the advent of the WWW it is much easier for foreign media to penetrate a country.  Places like Iran (theology) has all this material coming in regarding science and evolution and there really is nothing they can do about it unless they disconnect the Internet - and that would cost them too much.

    So what do you do?  Send a group of people on tours throughout the west giving lectures on how evolution is false.  You don't need your argument to be accurate, nor do you need to prove evolution is false.  All you need to do is to have the debate, a bit of controversy would be good too.  The net result is that people in countries like Iran can point to our country and say "They aren't even sure about it over there, it is a hotly contested theory, not everyone believes in it, people are starting to see it is false"

    And thus the strength of their theocracy is increased.  Harun Yahya is getting his money from somewhere Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Harun Yahya creationism tour starting in UK today
     Reply #29 - March 12, 2011, 08:58 AM

    ^ I think you can be right, but most likely its a different country than Iran. I've heard that Iran accepts evolution and teaches it in their schools, scientifically Iran is one of the most advanced in the muslim world. Also, Iran is a shia country, which tend to be less dogmatic than sunnis and wahabis.

    If Harun Yahya gets funding from any state, which is likely, then I think its probably saudia arabia.
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