FGM and Islam

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FGM and Islam
OP - February 05, 2011, 10:18 PM

Are there any hadiths that allow FGM or indicate that the prophet did not object to it?

I'm assuming there are no Ayas that mention or refer to FGM?
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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #1 - February 05, 2011, 10:24 PM

Sunan Abu Dawud
Book 41, Number 5251
Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:

A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #2 - February 05, 2011, 10:27 PM

Which Sahih is that ?
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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #3 - February 05, 2011, 10:28 PM

It's from Abu Dawud. Dunno how sahih it is but it's there.

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #4 - February 05, 2011, 10:29 PM

Is Abu Dawud a Sahih?
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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #5 - February 05, 2011, 10:31 PM

If it's a good Hadith then it's sahih, if it's a bad Hadith then it's not...

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #6 - February 05, 2011, 10:37 PM

Sahih in this context means book.
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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #7 - February 05, 2011, 10:43 PM

Quote
3an abi huraira, 3an malik 3an ibn khaldoun: the prophet met with a woman in medina who was performing both male and female circumcision , the prophet asked to observe the process of excision of the clitiros prepuce . and when it was over , He touched the 4 year old's clitoris and said" My aisha looks much better down there"

sahih Mandil .
this CLEARLY indicates his disapproval or shall i say distaste.

seriously , theres one which implies he didn't object it but advised caution . which is a weak hadith . as follows:

Quote
A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina [Madîna]. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to her: 'Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.'–Sunan Abu Dawûd, Book 41, #5251.

UGH shahid beat me to it !!

the compiler is Abu Dawud, he classified it himself as a weak hadith .

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #8 - February 05, 2011, 10:45 PM

I don't know much about this, but isn't there a part in the Qur'an which talks about when you have to make wudu, stipulating that after sexual contact, "when the circumcised part meets the circumcised part", wudu is necessary before prayer. That would surely imply that female circumcision was acceptable, although not necessarily mandatory, in Islam.

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #9 - February 05, 2011, 10:55 PM

Didn't I post a video about this some time ago? Will have to dig it up.
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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #10 - February 05, 2011, 10:56 PM

The thing is - do people who perform FGM understand it in religious terms?
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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #11 - February 05, 2011, 11:10 PM

That verse actually is used to show Mo approved of trimming or labioplasty.

The Grand Imam of Cairo's al-Azhar University Sheikh Muhammad Tantawian - probabaly the most influential and highest position of authority in Sunni Islam, said female circumcision is "a laudable practice that does honour to women."

Thanks to edicts by scholars like him and justified by the Islamic hadith, we find 95% of girls are having their genitalia mutilated in Egypt.

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #12 - February 05, 2011, 11:14 PM

95% ??!!!!!!
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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #13 - February 06, 2011, 11:16 AM

Lets forget about Egypt for the moment. This is what is happening in Britain in the 21st century: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jul/25/female-circumcision-children-british-law
Female circumcision will be inflicted on up to 2,000 British schoolgirls during the summer holidays – leaving brutal physical and emotional scars. Yet there have been no prosecutions against the practice.

What sort of people do this sort of shit to their own children? No matter how hard I try I simply cannot comprehend something like that. Surely well-being of a child should be paramount to any parent.
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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #14 - February 06, 2011, 11:23 AM

to those who claim that FGM is backed by *Quran*, please show the verses.

btw, FGM is NOT practiced in Saudi Arabia.

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #15 - February 06, 2011, 11:26 AM

Quote from: Kenan on February 06, 2011, 11:16 AM
Lets forget about Egypt for the moment. This is what is happening in Britain in the 21st century: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jul/25/female-circumcision-children-british-law
Female circumcision will be inflicted on up to 2,000 British schoolgirls during the summer holidays – leaving brutal physical and emotional scars. Yet there have been no prosecutions against the practice.

What sort of people do this sort of shit to their own children? No matter how hard I try I simply cannot comprehend something like that. Surely well-being of a child should be paramount to any parent.

FGM is rampant in African culture. People usually impose their own cultural practices on their religion, some even ignoring their religion entirely (for example Pakistani grooms still being paid a dowry by their brides, etc).

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #16 - February 06, 2011, 12:28 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 06, 2011, 11:26 AM
FGM is rampant in African culture. People usually impose their own cultural practices on their religion, some even ignoring their religion entirely (for example Pakistani grooms still being paid a dowry by their brides, etc).

Sure, I understand that. However as I stated above people who perform FGM imo do understand it in religious terms. One cannot simply separate the 'inner truth' of a religion from its secondary political (suicide bombers etc) or cultural (FGM etc) exploitations.
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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #17 - February 06, 2011, 01:01 PM

FGM and Islam

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=3479&highlight=africa

Quote
There is, however, a more authentic Hadeeth in which Prophet Muhammad (P) is reported to have passed by a woman performing circumcision on a young girl. He instructed the woman by saying:

"Cut off only the foreskin (outer fold of skin over the clitoris; the prepuce) but do not cut off deeply (i.e. the clitoris itself), for this is brighter for the face (of the girl) and more favorable with the husband." [8]

....While the Prophet (P) did not explicitly ban this practice, his words project a great deal of sensitivity to the instinctive needs of females and their matrimonal happiness and legitimate enjoyment. Reference to the brightness of the face and to better relationship with the husband are clear indications of his sensitivity and compassion.....

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?p=40785#40785

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #18 - February 06, 2011, 01:02 PM

@ Kenan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

Quote
Al-Azhar Supreme Council of Islamic Research, the highest religious authority in Egypt, issued a statement saying FGM/C has no basis in core Islamic law or any of its partial provisions and that it is harmful and should not be practised."[36]

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #19 - February 06, 2011, 01:07 PM

I understand that debunker. The problem is that people who practise FGM do subjectively understand it in religious terms.
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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #20 - February 06, 2011, 01:10 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 06, 2011, 01:02 PM
@ Kenan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

Al-Azhar Supreme Council of Islamic Research, the highest religious authority in Egypt, issued a statement saying FGM/C has no basis in core Islamic law or any of its partial provisions and that it is harmful and should not be practised."[36]

Islamic religious experts on female circumcision

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUvrHsPaTSo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1oI0KmUKq8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yh3QYpKfJs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwhzq09_6dQ

Hmm Interesting video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S10OgySZNvM

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #21 - February 06, 2011, 01:13 PM

@ kenan

of course there's no better way to justify anything you want to do than claiming it is divinely sanctioned.

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #22 - February 06, 2011, 01:15 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 06, 2011, 11:23 AM
to those who claim that FGM is backed by *Quran*, please show the verses.

btw, FGM is NOT practiced in Saudi Arabia.

It used to be. As for the Qur'an, I'm sure Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi knows it better than I do, and he says FGM is allowed, but not mandatory, in Islam. Is he wrong?

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #23 - February 06, 2011, 01:18 PM

@ Cheetah

Quote
It used to be.

what used to be?

Quote
As for the Qur'an, I'm sure Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi knows it better than I do, and he says FGM is allowed, but not mandatory, in Islam. Is he wrong?

i don't know. Let me see those verses first.

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #24 - February 06, 2011, 01:18 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 06, 2011, 01:13 PM
@ kenan

of course there's no better way to justify anything you want to do than claiming it is divinely sanctioned.

Exactly.

Therefore in order to completely eradicate the possibility of anything being sanctioned by divine, all one has too do is to take the divine out of the equation completely.
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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #25 - February 06, 2011, 01:21 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 06, 2011, 01:18 PM
i don't know. Let me see those verses first.

Pursuant to what I have written in my previous post - in case there was a verse in Quran clearly sanctioning FGM, would you have a problem with it?
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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #26 - February 06, 2011, 01:21 PM

FGM used to be practiced in Saudi Arabia.

Quote
Let me see those verses first.

I'm pretty sure you own a copy of the Qur'an, as do the people who advocate FGM.

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #27 - February 06, 2011, 01:22 PM

Quote
Exactly.

Therefore in order to completely eradicate the possibility of anything being sanctioned by divine, all one has too do is to take the divine out of the equation completely.

are you willing to generalize this to include every aspect of life, not only religion?

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #28 - February 06, 2011, 01:26 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on February 06, 2011, 01:21 PM
FGM used to be practiced in Saudi Arabia.

i didn't know that. probably wahabbis aren't as religious as their predecessors.

Quote
I'm pretty sure you own a copy of the Qur'an, as do the people who advocate FGM.

indeed, i do, and i read it cover to cover, many times over, but i never came across those verses you say Qaradhawi mentioned to support FGM, so i was expecting you'd show your evidence.

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Re: FGM and Islam
Reply #29 - February 06, 2011, 01:27 PM

FGM and Saudi Arabia..

http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=9&section=0&article=60703&d=20&m=3&y=2005

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JEDDAH, 20 March 2005 — Female circumcision is a very sensitive issue that is rarely discussed in Saudi Arabia because it is not practiced by the majority of the population. It is known, however, to be common in the Southern Region.
Quote
.........
“We have to be careful in approaching this subject because of the different religious stands and interpretations,” said Dr. Nasr Khabbaz, pediatric surgeon at the Children and Maternity Hospital in Jeddah. Muslim scholars have differed on whether female circumcision is required, recommended or optional based on two controversial sayings by the Prophet (peace be upon him). They are regarded as having little credibility or authenticity and are in contradiction to the Holy Qur’an.

.........
Quote
The Sunnah circumcision, the variety supposedly allowed by Islam, consists of the removal of the prepuce (retractable fold of skin or hood) and/or the tip of the clitoris. “This is the simplest type and what is most commonly performed here,” said Dr. Khabbaz.

The other type is clitoridectomy or excision, which consists of the removal of the entire clitoris and the removal of the adjacent labia. The severest type is infibulation, the removal of the clitoris, the adjacent labia minora and labia majora, and the joining of the scraped sides of the vulva across the vagina, leaving a small opening to allow passage of urine and menstrual blood.

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The procedure is rare in regions other than the south of Saudi Arabia but people from that region or from countries that perform it who are living in Saudi Arabia find the people and the place to perform it on their daughters, even though it is not allowed in hospitals and clinics. In the past five years, Dr. Khabbaz has seen three cases of girls with a clitoral cist after the procedure; the oldest was eight years old. .”

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Female Genital Mutilation: Religious and Legal Perspective
http://awro.uneca.org/downloads/FGM%20-%20Religious%20and%20Legal%20Perspectives.pdf

Quote
Sexual function in women with female genital mutilation.
Alsibiani SA, Rouzi AA.
Fertil Steril. 2010 Feb;93(3):722-4. Epub 2008 Nov 25.

Abstract

OBJECTIVE: To compare the sexual function of women with female genital mutilation (FGM) to women without FGM.

DESIGN: A prospective case-control study.

SETTING: A tertiary referral university hospital.

PATIENT(S): One hundred and thirty sexually active women with FGM and 130 sexually active women without FGM in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

INTERVENTION(S): Women with and without FGM were asked to answer the Arabic-translated version of the female sexual function index (FSFI) questionnaire.

MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): The individual domain scores for pain, arousal, lubrication, orgasm, satisfaction, pain, and overall score of the FSFI were calculated.

RESULT(S): The two groups were comparable in demographic characteristics. There were no statistically significant differences between the two groups in mean desire score (+/- standard deviation) or pain score. However, there were statistically significant differences between the two groups in their scores for arousal, lubrication, orgasm, and satisfaction as well as the overall score.

CONCLUSION(S): Sexual function in women with FGM is adversely altered. This adds to the well-known health consequences of FGM. Efforts to document and explain these complications should be encouraged so that FGM can be abandoned.

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