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Theme Changer

 Topic: hi! new ex-muslim from London

 (Read 10486 times)
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  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #90 - April 17, 2011, 10:03 PM

    @hassan 1

    Which of his arguments against god's existence do you find 'cringeworthy'?

  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #91 - April 17, 2011, 10:47 PM

    ^ Hassan is mistaken. Evolution is a belief. The oft-recycled bromide that one does not believe in evolution, rather one accepts it is a rhetorical sleight of hand that might be useful in discombobulating the creationists but is epistemologically futile. Both convey the same meaning: That one lends credence to the truth of the theory. Truth and falsity are properties of belief.

    If you wanna call it a belief, fine.  At least it is a far more convincing belief than the Adam and Eve story with Iblis and the forbidden fruit blah blah.  Evolution has stacks and stacks of evidence in its favour from several different fields of science.  My personal favourite is the genetic tree of life.

    As I've said before on this forum, I will believe whatever makes the most sense to me, and I'm always willing to change my mind.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #92 - April 17, 2011, 11:22 PM

    h
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #93 - April 17, 2011, 11:51 PM

    It is no doubt very amusing to concieve of a talking serpent. But not perhaps as uproarious as the notion of descending from a serpent.

    Yeah, but it didn't happen overnight, did it?  Evolution by natural selection is actually a very elegant process.  It's counter-intuitive, I grant you that, but once you understand it, quite plausible. It is based on a simple set of rules.

    To say that you are a truth-seeker however is a little amusing.

    I didn't say I spend all my time searching for the truth (I haven't got all the time in the world!).  I said if I bump into a claim that makes more sense and is interesting, and the evidence is stronger than my current belief about that area, I will change my mind.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #94 - April 18, 2011, 12:01 AM

    d
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #95 - April 21, 2011, 07:46 PM

    No, its testament to ignorance, prolonged cult-like brainwashing, and fear through the death and murder taboo attached to any criticism of it, not forgetting of course the tribal instincts that debase individuals to shilling for its barbarism and inanity.


    Whilst your empty platitudes may be held in high-regard amongst the CEMB choir, anybody wishing to understand the nuanced and complex message of the quran, and how its message has shaped the lives of billions throughout the recent history of mankind, would do well to ignore you.


    @hassan 1



    Prince Spinoza,

    I read The God Delusion a few years ago. It was my first experience of Richard Dawkins and it didn't leave a lasting impression. As far as I can remember, the basic thrust of his argument is as follows (please do correct me if I'm wrong)

    (1) A God would be more complex than the universe, and therefore highly unlikely
    (2) Evolution can account for all of life's complexity.

    Neither argument is particularly compelling. Evolution doesn't explain the origin of life and no one can quite explain how the universe came into being.

    The way his book is fawned over in some circles, I was expecting a literary and philosophical masterpiece to rank alongside the great works of the enlightenment scholars. Instead, he put forward hackneyed ideas which lacked originality and any real depth of scholarship. It wouldn't surprise me if he hasn't read a single religious book, but I suppose he would retort with some witty remark about fairy tales and pixy dust.


    Yeah, but it didn't happen overnight, did it?  Evolution by natural selection is actually a very elegant process.  It's counter-intuitive, I grant you that, but once you understand it, quite plausible. It is based on a simple set of rules.
    I didn't say I spend all my time searching for the truth (I haven't got all the time in the world!).  I said if I bump into a claim that makes more sense and is interesting, and the evidence is stronger than my current belief about that area, I will change my mind.


    It’s interesting that you would mention the phrase counter-intuitive. Your intuition – your fitrah – pushes you to believe in something fundamentally more meaningful. Yet your rational faculties (those same rational faculties you attribute to chance amalgamation of chemical reactions in the brain), lead you elswewhere. A fundamental belief in Islam, as I am sure you are aware, is that all people have an inclination towards Normality. Not normality in the sense as we moderns understand the word. To be Normal is not to blend in with the crowd, but to reach the perfect Adamic Ideal. To confom to your innermost disposition. This is Normality. This, I would suggest, is your intuition.

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #96 - April 21, 2011, 08:01 PM

    Whilst your empty platitudes may be held in high-regard amongst the CEMB choir, anybody wishing to understand the nuanced and complex message of the quran, and how its message has shaped the lives of billions throughout the recent history of mankind, would do well to ignore you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxvFbHGI4zs

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #97 - April 21, 2011, 08:12 PM

    Unfortunately, I think my intuition agrees with my rational thoughts; and both have screamed for me to get away from Islam, and to keep running until I am well clear. How would you suggest that I re-tune this intuition in order to return to Islam? And whilst you're at it, how would you suggest that I start ignoring any rational thoughts that may enter my head, whilst I'm trying desperately to get back in touch with my fitrah?

    This is a serious plea for help. A return to Islam would help my personal situation immensely. If any muslim can convince me, it is likely to be you.

    Hi
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #98 - April 21, 2011, 08:34 PM


    I read The God Delusion a few years ago. It was my first experience of Richard Dawkins and it didn't leave a lasting impression. As far as I can remember, the basic thrust of his argument is as follows (please do correct me if I'm wrong)

    (1) A God would be more complex than the universe, and therefore highly unlikely
    (2) Evolution can account for all of life's complexity.

    Neither argument is particularly compelling. Evolution doesn't explain the origin of life and no one can quite explain how the universe came into being.


    This is a response to the 'god is the necessary designer' argument. See that's the thing, the onus is on the theist to provide evidence for god, all the atheist can do is debunk those claims. The theist claim is that things are complex, therefore a designer must exist, Dawkins responds that this is just a redoubling of the problem.

    Of course evolution doesn't explain the origin of life, the same way that psychology doesn't explain earthquakes, they are different fields.

    And yes, no one can explain how the Universe came into being, if indeed it did. And that includes Muslims.

    Quote
    The way his book is fawned over in some circles, I was expecting a literary and philosophical masterpiece to rank alongside the great works of the enlightenment scholars. Instead, he put forward hackneyed ideas which lacked originality and any real depth of scholarship. It wouldn't surprise me if he hasn't read a single religious book, but I suppose he would retort with some witty remark about fairy tales and pixy dust.



    What argument would you put forward for god? Or for your god, rather.
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #99 - April 21, 2011, 08:43 PM

    God is a spandrel. Decorative gap-filler for what we do not yet know. A lazy philosophers dumping ground. It explains nothing and enlightens nobody. It's the most ambiguous and useless catch-all word in all histories and languages.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #100 - April 21, 2011, 08:51 PM

    Don't be so arrogant. Have you read every book ever written on god by anyone who ever lived? No. Therefore god exists.
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #101 - April 21, 2011, 09:00 PM

    There are numerous prophetic traditions, and indeed ayahs in the quran, which imply that there are multiple ways in which to interpret Quranic verses. One tradition suggests that there are seven meanings to each verse. Another suggests there is an inward and and outward meaning to the verses.

    What's the point of a holy book whose verses you can massage the meanings of to fit whatever you desired?


    Evolution doesn't explain the origin of life and no one can quite explain how the universe came into being.

    Ah..  of course!  this must imply that there is a personal God and ISLAM is the only true religion. Afro

    It’s interesting that you would mention the phrase counter-intuitive. Your intuition – your fitrah – pushes you to believe in something fundamentally more meaningful. Yet your rational faculties (those same rational faculties you attribute to chance amalgamation of chemical reactions in the brain), lead you elswewhere. A fundamental belief in Islam, as I am sure you are aware, is that all people have an inclination towards Normality. Not normality in the sense as we moderns understand the word. To be Normal is not to blend in with the crowd, but to reach the perfect Adamic Ideal. To confom to your innermost disposition. This is Normality. This, I would suggest, is your intuition.

    lol @ "Adamic Ideal" and "Normality".  Why capitalise the first letter like they are now proper nouns?

    Regarding your argument, I would say that evolution has built into us a sense of morality and what is intuitive.  Let me explain: regarding morality see this thread; and regarding intuitiveness, I think we humans are still only animals and intuitively see everything as a product of top-down design and not bottom-up design.  As Daniel Dennett says "you never see a pot making a potter" etc, so when we see (apparent) design in nature we think it was made by some higher agent.  The caveman saw thunder and lightning and thought there was a big fancy man up there expressing his anger or something.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #102 - April 21, 2011, 09:24 PM


    Whilst your empty platitudes  truth telling be held in high-regard amongst the CEMB choir, skewers the stone age fraudulent nonsense of the Quran and shows me up as just another desperate mind scurrying to anoint a brutal tribal manual as a holy screed to be protected by various murderous death taboos because it is so closely aligned to my tribalistic brainwashed mind,  anybody wishing to understand the nuanced and complex   simpletons charter that is the message of the quran and how its message has shaped mangled and perverted the minds and the lives of billions throughout the recent history of mankind, would do well to ignore you my intellectual cowardice and dishonest shilling for this primitive, un-original, plaigaristic, banal, hateful desert Arab tract and ponder on the profundity of your words, billy.


    Corrected that for you Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #103 - May 01, 2011, 04:59 PM

    Unfortunately, I think my intuition agrees with my rational thoughts; and both have screamed for me to get away from Islam, and to keep running until I am well clear. How would you suggest that I re-tune this intuition in order to return to Islam? And whilst you're at it, how would you suggest that I start ignoring any rational thoughts that may enter my head, whilst I'm trying desperately to get back in touch with my fitrah?

    This is a serious plea for help. A return to Islam would help my personal situation immensely. If any muslim can convince me, it is likely to be you.


    If this really is a genuine plea for help (it's hard to gauge seriousness of tone on an internet forum), then I would suggest that you spend less time on internet sites such as CEMB, and more time studying the various, and exhaustive, Islamic traditions. Immerse yourself in learning. Don't waste time on popular, superficial and ultimately meaningless non-fiction. Read the books of Gai Eaton and Martin Lings. Study the works of Rene Guenon. Understand what it means to be human. There is literature out there which will expand your mind in ways you thought unimaginable. Literature that will help marry your rationale thoughts, with your true fitrah-ic disposition.

    This is a response to the 'god is the necessary designer' argument. See that's the thing, the onus is on the theist to provide evidence for god, all the atheist can do is debunk those claims. The theist claim is that things are complex, therefore a designer must exist, Dawkins responds that this is just a redoubling of the problem.

    Of course evolution doesn't explain the origin of life, the same way that psychology doesn't explain earthquakes, they are different fields.

    And yes, no one can explain how the Universe came into being, if indeed it did. And that includes Muslims.

    What argument would you put forward for god? Or for your god, rather.


    This is far too complex a topic to summarise in a few paragraphs. That said, the 'evidence' for god does not lie in the physical realm. One cannot prove the existence of God in the same way one can prove the boiling temperature of water. Naturalists accept only one type of evidence, the type that can be analysed and scrutinized in the laboratory. The type that can be quantifiable verified. And this is what it boils down to; ignorance of the qualitative and subservience to the quantitative. We live in a world where universal truths and personal experience are ignored in favour of statistics, and this renders modern man unable to access any truths beyond the ephemeral.

    This will, undoubtedly, sound wishy washy to most of you and I wish I had the eloquence and time to do these ideas justice. but alas, I do not.


    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #104 - May 01, 2011, 05:01 PM

    Quote
    Don't waste time on popular, superficial and ultimately meaningless non-fiction


    Take the 'non' out of this sentence, and that would be the Quran.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #105 - May 01, 2011, 05:02 PM

    Quote
    Understand what it means to be human


    Read Shakespeare for that.

    Read the Quran and its apologists to learn how to be in-human and perverse.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #106 - May 01, 2011, 05:03 PM

    Quote
    And this is what it boils down to; ignorance of the qualitative and subservience to the quantitative. We live in a world where universal truths and personal experience are ignored in favour of statistics, and this renders modern man unable to access any truths beyond the ephemeral.


    What a pile of platitudinous garbage.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #107 - May 01, 2011, 05:06 PM

    This will, undoubtedly, sound wishy washy to most of you and I wish I had the eloquence and time to do these ideas justice. but alas, I do not.

    Yep, all those words you typed, and all you really said was "go read some books on Islam" and "I can't present any evidence for anything I say".

    Well done.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #108 - May 01, 2011, 05:10 PM

    This is far too complex a topic to summarise in a few paragraphs. That said, the 'evidence' for god does not lie in the physical realm. One cannot prove the existence of God in the same way one can prove the boiling temperature of water. Naturalists accept only one type of evidence, the type that can be analysed and scrutinized in the laboratory. The type that can be quantifiable verified. And this is what it boils down to; ignorance of the qualitative and subservience to the quantitative. We live in a world where universal truths and personal experience are ignored in favour of statistics, and this renders modern man unable to access any truths beyond the ephemeral.

    Are you asserting that Islam is true, and that all other religions/cults/tribes are false?  If so, what criterion do you use to determine that?  If your personal experience tells you that Islam is true, and someone else's personal experience tells them that Hinduism is true, how do you explain to the Hindu that they are wrong?

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #109 - May 01, 2011, 05:11 PM

    marry your rationale thoughts, with your true fitrah-ic disposition

    And bear paranoid-schizophrenic offspring.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #110 - May 01, 2011, 05:14 PM

    I had my Christian parents and a Taoist Malaysian friend round for supper on Friday night.

    My parents believe their thing. My friend and I disbelieve our things. We argued a lot.

    Wine was drunk. Fun was had. Nothing was solved or proved.

    What is the point of it all, Hassan1?

    Really.
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #111 - May 01, 2011, 05:17 PM

    If your personal experience tells you that Islam is true, and someone else's personal experience tells them that Hinduism is true, how do you explain to the Hindu that they are wrong?

    It is none other than Satan leading them astray. He saw him with his own eyes!

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #112 - May 01, 2011, 05:19 PM


    What is the point of it all, Hassan1?



    For all the kuffar to submit to the One True Faith, and Islam to have dominion over all mankind, and all other religions and belief systems to dissapear.

    Only then will individuals learn what it means to be 'human' (ie: Muslim), because being human and being Muslim is one and the same thing, and all who are not Muslim are not truly human.

    This is the brainless, stupid, hateful, supremacist message that studying the works of Gai Eaton and Martin Lings and Rene Guenon will make you understand, as musivore has been enjoined to do.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #113 - May 01, 2011, 05:20 PM

    If your personal experience tells you that Islam is true, and someone else's personal experience tells them that Hinduism is true, how do you explain to the Hindu that they are wrong?


    I like your tree-spirit worshipping Amazon jungle tribesmen example best Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #114 - May 01, 2011, 05:43 PM

    Thanks Hassan

    Hi
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #115 - May 01, 2011, 05:49 PM

    I like your tree-spirit worshipping Amazon jungle tribesmen example best Afro

    I believe you are referring to the Sikari tribesmen of New Guinea.  I got that example from Jared Diamond's writings, and it cracked me up. lol

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: hi! new ex-muslim from London
     Reply #116 - May 01, 2011, 10:00 PM


    Ah, thanks for the correction. Great example  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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