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 Topic: A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate

 (Read 14589 times)
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  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #60 - September 30, 2016, 02:55 PM

    It had to be someone like that to deliver a peace agreement IMO, (same goes for Yasser Arafat).  You see the same in similar situations elsewhere, Nelson Mandela started out as the head of the ANC's military wing which bombed civilians and murdered informers, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness started out as founding members of the Provisional IRA who did the same.  Those  are the only types of people who can deliver the hard liners and make them compromise with the other side.  Sure, it would be nice if conflicts could be ended by paragons of virtue who have never so much as thrown a stone in anger but the world doesn't work that way.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #61 - September 30, 2016, 03:12 PM

    That would be OK if it had delivered a workable peace agreement. In the case of Shimon Peres and the Oslo Accords it would have been better to have had no agreement than what was actually agreed. The responsibility is shared by Palestinian politicians who in effect signed up to something rather like apartheid South Africa's bantustans (a system all the anti-apartheid forces in South Africa had the sense to reject).

    Quote from: Haggai Matar
    And yet, the deal for which he was ultimately responsible, the Oslo Accords, was a disaster. Without actually ending the occupation, Peres managed to free Israel from its responsibility for Palestinians’ welfare and day-to-day lives by creating the Palestinian Authority. Thus, while Israel still maintains control over almost every aspect of life in the occupied territories, the Palestinian Authority is saddled with all of the responsibility, without any authority to act independently of Israel.

    The Oslo Accords preserved Israeli supremacy in the territory west of the Jordan River, with military force and control over natural resources like water, but also led to the creation of burgeoning class of people with vested interests — from PA bureaucrats to private entrepreneurs — whose livelihoods are entirely dependent on Israel’s good graces. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg (read more here).

  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #62 - September 30, 2016, 04:53 PM

    A Palestinian perspective on the legacy of Shimon Peres
    Quote from: Nadia Naser-Najjab
    These dualisms were formally enshrined within Peres’s crowning achievements — namely the Oslo peace process. At the time Peres was the Israeli foreign minister, and he played a hugely important role in the design and development of the Oslo, which could in many senses be described as the concrete embodiment of his personal political vision.

    The subsequent unfolding of the peace process was frequently attributed to the implementation of the Accords. However, this fails to acknowledge an essential truth, namely that the seeds of dissolution were originally sown within the contradictions and tensions which corresponded to Peres’s vision of ‘peace’ – a ‘peace’ founded upon domination, control and division; a ‘peace’ which deceives and distorts; which lies and conceals. If this was the peace that was to be achieved, then perhaps it is better that it failed.

  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #63 - September 30, 2016, 05:16 PM

    Well, that's depressing.   Cry

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #64 - October 23, 2016, 04:44 PM

    The two-state solution is dead. Let’s move on
    Quote from: Talal Jabari
    Whenever I think of the predicament of the Palestinian people, the voice of Juliet in Shakespeare’s “Romeo and Juliet” inevitably comes to mind: “What’s in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.”

    After all, what is left of Palestine besides the memories and the name, and the former is quickly disappearing as the 70th anniversary of the creation of the State of Israel looms around the corner. To put it realistically, nobody under the age of about 73 remembers life in historic Palestine, and no Palestinians living in the West Bank or Gaza Strip under 55 know what it’s like to not live under military occupation. Despite all that, almost all of the nearly 13 million Palestinians living around the world still call it Palestine.

    When you come to think of it, the majority of those Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza Strip don’t even know what life was like before the Oslo Accords. They’ve only experienced the status quo. That is scary for a number of reasons — besides the fact that it makes me feel old.

    Yet Palestinians still refer to this land as Palestine. When they cross the border from Jordan and they’re met by Israeli soldiers who decide whether or not they enter the country and how, they call it Palestine. When they use Israeli Shekels to purchase Israeli products set by market prices governed by the Israeli economy and its regulators, they call it Palestine. When the Israeli army enters Palestinian cities and towns, when Israeli police stop Palestinian cars and fine Palestinian drivers, when the Palestinian police cover their lights and change out of their uniforms so they can travel between Palestinian towns — they still call it Palestine.

    When they talk about going back, knowing they most likely won’t be going back, when they fight, when they die, when their homes are destroyed, when settlements take more and more of their family’s land — they still call it Palestine.

    So does it matter what it is called?

    For over 70 years, Palestinians have been fighting for their existence, for their land, to avenge the killings of loved ones, to improve the quality of their lives, to end the occupation. Palestinians have been fighting for their freedom for over 70 years.

    And what do we have to show for it? An abysmal refugee situation that persists, or rather one that continuously reinvents itself. Hundreds of thousands of others have been sentenced to life in an open-air prison, Gaza, where their daily caloric intake is calculated and regulated by the warden, while that very same warden takes it upon himself to destroy parts of the prison on a regular basis. Hundreds of thousands of others still live as second-class Israeli citizens. Millions more live under two different systems including one in democracy has been permanently suspended out of fear that the ruling tyrants will be defeated by the equally horrible alternative.

    Worst of all, we have young men and women who are desperate, angry, afraid, essentially committing suicide one by one with the far-fetched hope that they’ll take someone down with them. I’m not sure they really think they’re going to liberate Palestine; everyone else knows they don’t stand a chance.

    Meanwhile, settlements expand and the U.S. State Department still warns of the impending death of the two-state solution. My friends, the two-state solution is dead, buried, and it has decomposed almost to the extent of being unidentifiable. The ship has sailed, the horse has bolted, do we really need to keep coming up with more clichéd idioms?

    It’s time for Israelis and Palestinians to recognize that we’ve reached a stalemate: nobody is leaving where they are right now, and the status quo just isn’t pragmatic.

    It’s not about the legality of the status quo, it’s not about turning the clock back a century or two, or a millennium or two; it’s about the here and now. It’s about recognizing that we’ve reached a stalemate and that people just want to get on with their lives — people on both sides of the divide. Quite frankly, and although this might make me very unpopular — not because people don’t agree with it but because you’re not supposed to discuss it publicly — but I’d rather live as a proud Palestinian who happens to be a citizen of Israel than continue the sham that we’re living in now under the Palestinian Authority.

    I’d rather fight for equal rights in the courtroom and the ballot boxes, for a balanced immigration policy where Palestinians can apply and have a chance to live in their ancestral homeland which is now called Israel, but which we will continue in our hearts and in our minds call Palestine. It’s time to demilitarize, is time to disband the police state, it’s time to bring down the wall.

    It’s time for us to stop giving Israel the excuse that we’re fighting it when the overwhelming majority stopped fighting years ago. As the situation stands today, we’re only giving the Israeli government an excuse to continue and even worsen its collective punishment. I sincerely appreciate the dozens of countries voting to recognize Palestine, but now it’s time to move on.

    Talal Jabari is a Palestinian award-winning documentary filmmaker and journalist from East Jerusalem. He tweets from @TalalJabari.

  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #65 - July 21, 2017, 06:09 PM

    Radiohead and BDS

    I'm not convinced by everything in this - for example the viability of a two state solution or the unanimity on sanctions against South Africa - but it's worth reading.
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #66 - March 29, 2018, 05:10 PM

    Not really part of the Israel/Palestine debate but an eye-opening article about refugees arriving in Israel.

    Standing with African migrants, former IDF fighters recall their ‘hell’
    After suppressing traumatic memories for years, soldiers who greeted asylum seekers in Israel after their long journey in the deserts of Africa have decided to share their experiences...


    At Tel Aviv rally, a Mizrahi-asylum seeker alliance is born
    Tens of thousands crowded Tel Aviv’s Rabin Square on Saturday to show solidarity for asylum seekers facing deportation. ‘If we let the deportation happen, the Jewish people will have a stain on its history forever.’

  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #67 - March 29, 2018, 06:32 PM

    Demographic parity is an existential challenge for Israel
    Quote from: Marzuq Al-Halabi
    But let’s consider an entirely different idea: the notion that societies and peoples can make alternative choices. Let’s say it is time to admit there is indeed demographic parity here in Israel/Palestine. And instead of addressing it through population transfers, evictions, and the violent extension of control, Israel chooses the way of peace between the two peoples spun together for over 50 years—to recognize the demographic parity, and to begin to normalize its relationship to it. And instead of calling it a demographic tie—a threatening name—let’s call the program an initiative “for fully living together.” The two sides living in this shared space will mutually agree to reconcile and achieve transitional justice, which, in time, will become corrective justice—because there can be no historic justice.

    There already exists between the river and the sea a model for living together, one way or another. The task that remains is to deepen this way of life, and to make it the central goal of a country of two peoples...


    Palestinians are the majority. Is it apartheid yet?
    Quote from: Amjad Iraqi
    A resounding fear struck many Knesset members this week upon hearing that, on both sides of the Green Line, Palestinians may now outnumber Jews, 6.8 million people to 6.5 million. The statistics were given to the Knesset by an official from COGAT, the military body that governs the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. If the figures are correct, the ‘dystopic’ future of a Jewish minority living between the river and the sea appears to have finally arrived...

  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #68 - March 30, 2018, 04:27 AM

    Demographic parity is an existential challenge for IsraelAlso:

    Palestinians are the majority. Is it apartheid yet?

    Marzuq Al-Halabi

    Regardless, the question for Israel remains: after defeating the Palestinians on the political, economic, military, and cultural fronts, what will Israel do in response to the new demographic figures? Or, to put the question more simply: what will Israel do to address its shrinking strategic advantage in the face of demographic parity?

     I can easily answer those questions  of  Marzuq Al-Halabi,  but he should know  people like him and their articles are  of no use  in front of  the morons like these and they  have no chance of winning the confrontation  with these morons

    who  brain wash toddlers and children

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #69 - March 31, 2018, 01:38 PM
    Quote from: Dimi Reider
    The commitedly non-violent liberation movement Israelis have always clamored for is finally here. Will we listen? 

    Israeli army opens fire as tens of thousands march in Gaza
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #70 - March 31, 2018, 02:05 PM

      that is horrible   that news link  Israeli army opens fire as tens of thousands march in Gaza  says..

    Israeli troops Palestinians reportedly killed 15 and wounded 1,400 Palestinian demonstrators during the first day of what the organizers are calling ‘The Great Return March,’ 45 days of protests and events planned to mark 70 years since the Nakba.  

      .. 1400 wounded??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #71 - March 31, 2018, 04:15 PM

    Here’s an interview from a few days ago with one of the organisers of the march.
    A few minutes before I spoke with Hasan al-Kurd Monday night, Israel’s prime-time nightly news led with story about the march of return al-Kurd and other Palestinian activists in Gaza are planning along the border of the besieged territory this Friday — and how security officials believe their plans to stop the march will result in Palestinian casualties.

    The Israeli media has been abuzz for the past several weeks about the march and the army’s plans for stopping tens of thousands of people reaching the border fence. In an oped in Haaretz this week, a former Israeli military spokesperson warned of the optics of “innocent marchers, women, children and men, longing to return to their homes, fired upon by heavily-armed Israeli soldiers.”

    According to the Channel 2 broadcast on Monday, Israel’s cabinet has been discussing “out-of-the-box” ideas. One minister proposed “parachuting food and medicine, maybe via drones, deeper into Gaza, and hopefully that will encourage the Palestinian civilians to go toward the food that was dropped from the sky instead of heading to the fence.”

    Al-Kurd is amused when I tell him what I’ve just heard on the news. “We anticipated they’d try that,” he says, jokingly. We laugh, and say that maybe they should plan more marches and initiatives along the Gaza border — to convince Israel to ease the siege and relieve some of the suffering in Gaza.

    Al-Kurd, a 43-year-old school teacher and father of six from Gaza, is one of 20 organizers of the planned march, which is actually a 45-day event starting this Friday, Land Day, and culminating on May 15, Nakba Day. Seventy percent of the population of Gaza are refugees, meaning they or their parents or grandparents fled or were expelled from towns, villages, and cities inside the territory that became in Israel in 1948, an event known as the Nakba. They have never been allowed to return.

    The plan is to set up camps between 700-1000 meters from Israel’s border fence, outside the Israeli army’s unilaterally imposed buffer zone, where anyone who enters is liable to be shot. In the weeks leading up to Nakba Day, there will be marches and bicycle races and other events every week, aiming to draw more attendees along the way. By mid-May, tens or hundreds of thousands are expected to join.

    “We’ve been following the Israeli news,” Al-Kurd says. “It’s important for us to know what they write about us so we’ll know what to anticipate when the day comes.”

    Organizers are fearful that because the Israeli media is portraying The Great Return March as a Hamas-organized event, and considering the increasing number of border incidents in recent weeks, that the Israeli army will mete out deadly force on their nonviolent initiative.

    What exactly are you planning to achieve this Friday?

    “We will start the march of return on March 30, but the idea is to keep going, and gather more and more people. Within one week, we’re hoping to have at least 50,000 people close to the border. After that, we will advance 100 meters closer to the border.”

    As we speak, Al-Kurd reiterates again and again that the protest will be completely nonviolent, contrary to how it is being described in Israeli media.

    “We want families. We want to send a message that we want to live in peace — with the Israelis. We’re against stone throwing or even burning tires. We will make sure the protest doesn’t escalate to violence — at least from our end.”

    But on the other side, according to Israeli reports, large numbers of soldiers and police forces will be waiting for you.

    “We know, and we can’t do anything about that. Our message is peaceful and we’re against violence. If you remember back in 1987, Gaza was packed with Israelis. We want the siege to be lifted and to go back to these days.”

    This type of initiative has been tried in the past. In 2011, thousands of Palestinians from Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank and Gaza, and inside Israel marched on the country’s borders. On the Lebanese, Syrian, and Gaza borders, the army responded with gunfire, killing dozens and wounding hundreds. A number of Palestinian citizens of Israel who tried to meet the protesters on the Israeli side of the northern border were arrested.

    I ask Al-Kurd if they’re ready for the possibility that Israel might again react with disproportionate and deadly force.

    “Of course that’s a possibility, unfortunately. But what other options do we have? The situation in Gaza has become unbearable and we absolutely can’t live in Gaza anymore – that’s what prompted us to plan this march and that’s why we anticipate so many people to attend the protest.”

    “We’re ready for every possible scenario, even if they start firing at us. Nowadays, to be a Palestinian is to be an almost dead person. Palestinians die every day and we know that’s part of our reality. I was at the Erez checkpoint back in 2011 [during the last return march]; I’ve seen the full force of Israel’s cruelty.”

    “The whole idea is based on UN Security Council Resolution 194 (the right of return) and the current unbearable living conditions in Gaza. It is actually a peaceful act. We want to ask the Israelis to welcome as if we were visitors from another country, the same way they welcome refugees in certain countries in Europe — though we’re not actually visitors here.”

    What about Hamas? How involved are they in organizing this?

    “They’re not. We’re a group of 20 organizers, only two of whom are affiliated with Hamas. Actually, most of us, including myself, are leftists. All the political parties in Palestine are behind us and supporting us, and Hamas — being an elected party — is one of those parties.”

    “If we’d felt that [Hamas], or any other party for that matter, tried to control the protest and make it about them, we wouldn’t let them. Hamas is actually very understanding on that point.”

    What about the border with Egypt? Why not march there, I ask. The Rafah border crossing, which could ostensibly serve as a lifeline for Gaza, has been kept closed by Egypt nearly year-round for the past decade. The crossing has been opened for only a handful of days so far this year, mostly to allow Palestinians to seek medical treatment in Egypt and those stranded in Egypt to return. In all of 2017, according to the UN, the crossing was open for a mere 36 days; only 2,930 people managed to cross in both directions.

    In 2008, after Hamas took control of Gaza and Egypt first shut the border crossing down to regular traffic, Palestinian militants bulldozed open sections of the border wall and hundreds of thousands of people poured through to escape, buy supplies, and effectively break the siege. Eventually Egypt resealed the border.

    “You’re right in pointing out that Egypt is a part of the siege, but they’re not occupying us and don’t control every daily aspect of our lives like Israel does. We’re Palestinians, and like I mentioned before, the whole protest is about UNSC Resolution 194 (the right of return for Palestinian refugees), and Egypt has nothing to do with this.”

    “The Egyptian economy is bad, and should they open the siege on their end I believe both sides would benefit.”

    What about Palestinians who live inside Israel? Are you in touch with them?

    “We’re in touch with Palestinian leaders everywhere, including those inside the 1948 borders. We’d like to see our brothers and sisters coming to the border to welcome us — but only as long as they do it safely, not risking themselves and not coming too close to the border so that they don’t end up in clashes with the army. Even if that act is merely symbolic, it will give us a massive mental boost to keep going.”

    What about the United States’ involvement? Washington recently made massive cuts to its funding for UNRWA, the Palestinian refugee agency, and Trump’s declaration of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital certainly didn’t help.

    “It actually did. The American policy against us makes a lot of people realize that we don’t have much choice but to do this.”

    The organizers are hoping to mobilize as many people as they can. Al-Kurd mentions massive numbers, saying they expect half a million people to join them along the border within the first couple of weeks of the protest. I ask him what will happen when they do get the numbers he’s talking to me about.

    “We want to bring a million Gazans to the border by May 15th. That would be a massive success.”

    And then what?

    “Israel will have two options. Either they end the siege or they start negotiations – direct or indirect, it doesn’t really matter, as long as we get a chance to live in dignity and there is relief for the pain and suffering of everyone here in Gaza.”

    Is there a message you’d like to convey to the Israeli public?

    “Yes. We are reaching out to them, holding an olive branch. It’s true that we’ve suffered in the past but we’re willing to put everything behind us. Let’s turn a new page together and do what’s right.

    “Right now, our situation is very similar to a couple who’s separated — neither married nor divorced. That’s Gaza. So either Israel decides to let us go and end the occupation, or we remarry and have a fresh start”

  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #72 - March 31, 2018, 04:41 PM

    These videos are from protests in 2017.
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #73 - March 31, 2018, 04:49 PM

    These videos are from protests in 2017.

      non stop  deaths and destruction..well let us  put new ones    [

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #74 - April 02, 2018, 10:40 PM
    I was there six years ago. It was Friday, March 30, 2012. Land Day on the border with Gaza. Demonstrations began after Friday noon prayers. A group of snipers had set up its post the previous night, while the rest of the unit stood armed with riot dispersal weapons, closer to the fence. The order was clear: if a Palestinian crosses the “buffer zone” — 300 meters from the fence inside the Gaza Strip, one may shoot at the legs of the “main inciters.”

    This order, which never explained exactly how a soldier is meant to identify, isolate, and shoot a “main inciter” out of tens of thousands of demonstrators disturbed me then. It continued to disturb me this past weekend, after IDF snipers opened fire on Palestinian marchers at the Gaza border. “How can opening fire at a crowd of people be a legal order?” I asked my deputy company commander six years ago. I have yet to receive an answer.

    What would have happened had these soldiers spent their entire service on the Gaza front? As soldiers who have had just finished our course, “Land Day” was the perfect opportunity for us to see some “action.” The same can likely be said about the soldiers who shot dead at least 16 protesters on Friday. Their commanders were most likely also excited.

    I am certain that had we been called up to do the same thing year after year, something would have changed. After all, this situation — every year, at the same time, at the same place, with the high likelihood that a Palestinian, not an Israeli, would lose his life — makes sense only the first time around, especially in the eyes of a fresh-faced 18-year-old.

    But any soldier who would return to the Gaza border every year, who would see Palestinian after Palestinian fall to the ground, could figure out a better solution to the situation. Any soldier who would return to see the same marchers nearing that fence — which symbolizes, above all else, that death may not be such a bad alternative — understands that there must be an alternative.

    One of my friends killed a demonstrator on the border with Gaza. I am part of a group that carries this death on its shoulders. The only difference between myself and my friend is chance. Had I been sent to the sniper course rather than the medics course, I would have been that shooter. The entire group lent its support to the operation, and the blood — despite the fact that we have all been released from the army — is still on our hands. I doubt if anyone but myself remembers.

    Every year is a new one, and at the border with Gaza arrive new commanders and new soldiers — fresh blood and a leadership with short-term memory.

    Soldiers have a privilege. Every three or six months they move to a different area. They see only a fraction of Gaza’s despair, but before they even have a chance to process or think about it, they move on to see the despair in Hebron, Ramallah, and Nablus.

    The soldier knocks on the Abu Awad family’s door in the middle of the night only once. He fires at protesters on Land Day only once. He carries out arrests for a few months. After that he is replaced by another soldier. Then he is released.

    The residents of Gaza and the West Bank are marking 50 years under occupation. But they will not be replaced, and no one is coming to release them or help shoulder the burden. For us soldiers, everything is temporary. For them, it is permanent.

  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #75 - April 03, 2018, 02:20 PM

    that is good magazine to read on current affairs of  Gaza Strip /Israel/West bank...   It seems  many of the authors at that place are Jewish folks


    Founding Members
    Lisa Goldman
    Joseph Dana
    Yuval Ben-Ami
    Ami Kaufman
    Dimi Reider
    Dahlia Scheindlin
    Noam Sheizaf

    But  I am sorry to say that FAITHS & FAITH HEADS  are the reason why such problems are there  and continue to exist in 21st century ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #76 - April 07, 2018, 02:14 PM

    Unfortunately Israel won't stop until they've either killed or driven all Palestinians out.  finmad

    "The greatest general is not the one who can take the most cities or spill the most blood. The greatest general is the one who can take Heaven and Earth without waging the battle." ~ Sun Tzu

  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #77 - April 08, 2018, 01:11 PM

    Radiohead and BDS

    I'm not convinced by everything in this - for example the viability of a two state solution or the unanimity on sanctions against South Africa - but it's worth reading.

    Nasreen Qadri, Radiohead’s support act:,7340,L-4954106,00.html
  • A balanced POV on the Israel/Palestine debate
     Reply #78 - April 08, 2018, 02:14 PM
    Omar Aysha
    Music doesn't exist in an apolitical vacuum. House slaves like her only get ahead because they further the hold of the slave owners.

    Shurah Beel
    What kind of Muslim is she?

    there is a reaction   for everything  that is  does not  support  the faith heads   ideas of Islam.....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
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