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 Topic: Hi from on the fence muslim

 (Read 97448 times)
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  • Hi from on the fence muslim
     OP - December 31, 2010, 07:18 PM

    Hello Everyone,
    As the subject mentions I am on the fence muslim having serious doubts about Islam. I have been reading posts on this forum. Now I have joined the forum to actively participate in the discussions and hope to find answers to some of my questions. I suppose many of you must have gone through a similar stage before you crossed over.

    I am 32 years of age and was born in a muslim family in Pakistan. My parents never imposed Islam on me. However I have always tried to be a good muslim according to my understanding of Islam. My inclination has always been to associate rationality to whatever ideology I follow and try my best to keep open mind. During my teens I was satisfied with religious opinions that seemed (at the time) logical. In early 20s I was initially impressed with Zakir Naik and similar explanations.  But then through further reading realized hadith can not be source of Islam. I did not become Quran only rather considered sources of Islam to be Quran and Sunnah (as defined by Javed Ahmed Ghamidi and his pupils to be transmitted from generation to generation through common practice - amli tawatur).
    In recent years, thanks to some more diverse reading and a little understanding of theory of evolution (Dawkins) I started having doubts.  The main doubts Huh? include:
    1) Concept of hell for eternity does not seem fair. Though one explanation is that it will appear like eternity due to level of suffering. Even then is this fair.
     
    2) Slavery and allowance of intimacy with female slaves

    3) Why is Quran not structured to be clearly understood without any doubts if it is guidance for all mankind  

    4) I can not digest the part where Quran mentions that Allah guides who he wants and let others go astray. And did Allah create human so that he can have most of them burn in hell for eternity.

    5) The theory of evolution makes a lot of sense to me. However it does not seem to be compatible with Islam unless we do not take the story of Adam and Eve to be literal.
     
    6) Various events like the Nuh's flood as mentioned in Quran appear like fairy tales. Some how I can not digest these miracles now. I did not think about it earlier.

    7) There is no ideal muslim society to look up to. What is the use of teachings which are not effective in real life. The political mess started right after death of prophet Muhammad in early years of Islam e.g. War of the camel.


    The reason I am still muslim (apparently - do not know if the above questions make me a non believer already Smiley )
    1) I am still trying to judge the various explanations for the above
    2) Apart from the few doubts I have including the ones above, the rest of the teachings mostly appeal to me like not drinking alcohol, dressing decently,  caring for parents, orphans etc
    3) Most of the criticism of Islam unfortunately is based on doubtful Hadith  collection, limited knowledge, false perceptions or verses taken out of context (in some cases)
    4) I see no reason in finding scientific accuracies or inaccuracies in Quran as it is a book for moral guidance rather than scientific teaching.

    Additionally from limited discussion I have had with my wife, it will not be possible for her to abandon Islam though for some time she had her doubts too. However it seems its too big a leap for her. So I will have to be careful announcing my apostasy in order to not lose my family.
    BTW I do not pray these days or observe any other religious practices. Anyways this has become a bit longish introduction. Now that you know a bit about my background, thinking and approach towards Islam, I am looking forward to some useful discussions.
     thnkyu
     
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #1 - December 31, 2010, 07:44 PM

    wellcome to the forum mate, nice to have you here  Afro

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #2 - December 31, 2010, 07:56 PM

    Welcome to the forum and enjoy your stay, I am sure you will find valuable information here  Afro
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #3 - December 31, 2010, 07:58 PM

    Hey, welcome to the forum!!

    There is plenty of material specially in Religion and God section. Enjoy your stay Smiley

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #4 - December 31, 2010, 11:14 PM

    Welcome to the forum.  Smiley

    You seem like a pretty reasonable guy and I'll have a go at answering some of your questions.

    1) Concept of hell for eternity does not seem fair. Though one explanation is that it will appear like eternity due to level of suffering. Even then is this fair.
     
    2) Slavery and allowance of intimacy with female slaves

    3) Why is Quran not structured to be clearly understood without any doubts if it is guidance for all mankind  

    4) I can not digest the part where Quran mentions that Allah guides who he wants and let others go astray. And did Allah create human so that he can have most of them burn in hell for eternity.

    5) The theory of evolution makes a lot of sense to me. However it does not seem to be compatible with Islam unless we do not take the story of Adam and Eve to be literal.
     
    6) Various events like the Nuh's flood as mentioned in Quran appear like fairy tales. Some how I can not digest these miracles now. I did not think about it earlier.

    7) There is no ideal muslim society to look up to. What is the use of teachings which are not effective in real life. The political mess started right after death of prophet Muhammad in early years of Islam e.g. War of the camel.



    1. Infinite punishment for finite sins does seem a tad harsh doesn't it? Especially for a being who routinely calls himself the most merciful.

    2. Slavery is extremely discriminatory in Islam. The Qur'an says that it is virtuous to free "believing slaves". But it's perfectly okay in Islam to enslave non-Muslims. As far as "intimacy" with slaves is concerned, the Qur'an allows men to have sex with slaves, even ones who are married. The worst thing about it is that there is no stipulation that sex with slaves has to be consensual. It's annoying to see a religion which has a holier than thou mentality when it comes to sexual morality allowing men to have up to 4 wives and an unlimited amount of slaves.

    3. The Qur'an claims to be clear in its meaning but Muslims keep insisting that you need to learn Arabic to fully understand it - that and years of studying the Qur'an to be able to appreciate its beauty.

    4. Allah is a cruel work of fiction, that's why.

    5. Evolution and Islam aren't compatible, there are many verses in the Qur'an which go against the theory of evolution. Which do you trust more, a scientific theory accepted as true by the vast majority of scientists or the words of an 7th century Arab merchant?

    6. Good. These stories are absurd and it's sad that grown adults actually believe them.

    7.  Muslims get around the shitty state of the ummah by blaming Muslims themselves for straying away from the deen and not practising Islam vigorously enough.

    4) I see no reason in finding scientific accuracies or inaccuracies in Quran as it is a book for moral guidance rather than scientific teaching.


    The Qur'an claims to be from God. If there are scientific inaccuracies, and God has made mistakes in his final revelation, doesn't that weaken its claim to divinity?

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #5 - December 31, 2010, 11:39 PM

    clap Nice points both of you!!

    Except, I would love to comment on this one:
    5) The theory of evolution makes a lot of sense to me. However it does not seem to be compatible with Islam unless we do not take the story of Adam and Eve to be literal.

    5. Evolution and Islam aren't compatible, there are many verses in the Qur'an which go against the theory of evolution. Which do you trust more, a scientific theory accepted as true by the vast majority of scientists or the words of an 7th century Arab merchant?

    Evolution is NOT just a theory. It is a proven fact. In fact, there are way more proofs that evolution happened then the proofs of gravity itself. Also most of the medical research these days is based on the fact that evolution happened.

    There are plenty of videos in "Science and Reason" section providing the proved test results. One of the video is:
    Quote

    Although the video is 1 hour long but he will prove it within first 20 minutes or so.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #6 - December 31, 2010, 11:56 PM

    Hi there Mas  Smiley, pleasure to meet you.

    1) Concept of hell for eternity does not seem fair. Though one explanation is that it will appear like eternity due to level of suffering. Even then is this fair.
    As stated above, we have to wonder, is infinite punishment for a finite sin 'merciful' in any way? quite the contrary it seems.
    What makes it worse is that (even if it will only appear like eternity), would it be right to punish someone when their central reason for going there was nothing more than being born into a differing religion or simply being naturally skeptical and requiring evidence?
    Also, If god is all knowing then he's fully aware of what will take place since the beginning of time, yet allows it regardless.
    To paraphrase :- 'We must question the reasoning of a God who creates us imperfectly, then punishes us for being so'.


    2) Slavery and allowance of intimacy with female slaves
    This is a common issue with ancient religion, as it all just so happens to conform to the historical practices of that time period.
    You would think that a god being would simply outlaw the whole idea of slavery (if it had the foresight to see it would be rejected at present day) or wonder if the being infact accepts the practice (all hypothetical ofcourse).


    3) Why is Quran not structured to be clearly understood without any doubts if it is guidance for all mankind
    If you were a bronze age man without divine connections, its likely that your limitations would be:-
    -One language
    -One dialect, subject to region and time period
    -One location, at one time in history
    -Had to be written down by man
    -Had to be on pen and paper
    -No angels to show to the world or evidence of a communication with it.
    These are only a FRACTION of the limitations that a typical man would have, these are also the exact limitations of how the Quran was formed , along with all religious books.
    It ads insult to injury with the fact that the book cannot be accurately translated and becomes less understood over time, with most being extremely vague ,abstract and open to multiple interpretations.

    4) I can not digest the part where Quran mentions that Allah guides who he wants and let others go astray. And did Allah create human so that he can have most of them burn in hell for eternity.
    As stated earlier, you can't be all knowing,all loving, all powerful and all seeing...then turn around and assume the abilities of something that isn't all of those things.
    The most logical explanation is that the writers didn't really think it all through and how these omnipotent characteristics would affect other areas of the book.


    5) The theory of evolution makes a lot of sense to me. However it does not seem to be compatible with Islam unless we do not take the story of Adam and Eve to be literal.
    As a Molecular Biologist Graduate, the Adam and Eve story has no possible validity
    (unless Allah was purposely planting evidence to the contrary, one of his names is 'the deceiver' correct?) (hypothetical again)


    6) Various events like the Nuh's flood as mentioned in Quran appear like fairy tales. Some how I can not digest these miracles now. I did not think about it earlier.
    As with most of the stories, they are generally vague versions of parroted parables from the Old Testament;
    Theres a story called the 'Epic of Gilgamesh' , a striking resemblance to Nuh's story...but the Gilgamesh story is a poem from Sumeria...Extremely close to where the Old Testament was formed at a later date...


    7) There is no ideal muslim society to look up to. What is the use of teachings which are not effective in real life. The political mess started right after death of prophet Muhammad in early years of Islam e.g. War of the camel.
    Exactly! Why are Islamic countries in such a mess if the guidance they received was divinely inspired?
    Ironically, Muslims often maintain better lives under secular non-islamic political control.
    Fair enough for a Muslim to claim that 'God doesn't want to demonstrate that Muslims are his chosen people' etc etc,
    but you would think there would ATLEAST be something that demonstrates even the slightest plausibility that they received an extra-intelligent form of guidance...Even just a slightly superior level of happiness,luck,technology, peace or intelligence would have been sufficient, but it seems not..



    The reason I am still muslim (apparently - do not know if the above questions make me a non believer already Smiley )
    1) I am still trying to judge the various explanations for the above

    Great! Its always important to use your mind and not to blindly follow. Keep searching for the answer. yes

    2) Apart from the few doubts I have including the ones above, the rest of the teachings mostly appeal to me like not drinking alcohol, dressing decently, &#160;caring for parents, orphans etc
    I have ALL of those standards, I'm not a muslim, nor did I take any of the ideals from the religion either.
    Ofcourse the Quran has many good things to say, it also has many impractical and/or not so pleasent things to say aswell.

    3) Most of the criticism of Islam unfortunately is based on doubtful Hadith &#160;collection, limited knowledge, false perceptions or verses taken out of context (in some cases)
    I agree; however , there are many educated arguments against the Quran (many you will find around the forum and on youtube from a select few members)

    4) I see no reason in finding scientific accuracies or inaccuracies in Quran as it is a book for moral guidance rather than scientific teaching.
    You said yourself about slavery being wrong, Allahs ability to choose who to influence and the problems with hell; There are plenty of issues with apostasy, homosexuality and gender too, not to mention the number of punishments and the political/economic issues Islam seems to cause, that indirectly causes even more inhumane problems..
    Islamic countries have some of the worst records of human rights violations and there is plenty in the Quran to justify it.
    There's good and bad in most things; Its about weighing them up, not cherry picking what to accept and what to ignore.
    Heres a quick video demonstrating that point:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxdgCxK4VUA


    Anyway those are my responses (had to keep some of them vague and limited, didn't want to flood you with walls of text  Smiley )
    Take care and see you on the forum. bunny
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #7 - January 01, 2011, 12:06 AM

    Welcome MAS - sitting on the fence hurts the bum.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #8 - January 01, 2011, 02:25 AM

    Mas - nice intro  Afro  Tell us how you found us, and btw good luck on your voyage of discovery.  If you want some more points to add to your list, take a look at the blog in my sig  Afro

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #9 - January 01, 2011, 02:41 PM

    Thank You all for your warm welcome  Smiley
    Already I have got some good replies to my questions.  I wish I had posted here earlier
    It is reassuring to find a platform where I can share my opinions openly. Otherwise it is difficult to do so even with close friends.

    Quote from: GodIsNotGreat  date=1293837246
    2. Slavery is extremely discriminatory in Islam. The Qur'an says that it is virtuous to free "believing slaves". But it's perfectly okay in Islam to enslave non-Muslims

    Do you mean only believing slaves can be freed. If yes can you refer to the verse?
    Or you are saying that freeing of believing slaves is encouraged more than non-muslim slaves?

    "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates…"[47:4]

    The following verse does ask to free believing slave in case a believer is killed by mistake
    "And whoever kills a believer by mistake, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave.."[4:92]

    BTW there is no such penalty for killing a non believer by mistake...hmmm


    Quote from: muddy  date=1293838756
    Except, I would love to comment on this one:Evolution is NOT just a theory. It is a proven fact. In fact, there are way more proofs that evolution happened then the proofs of gravity itself. Also most of the medical research these days is based on the fact that evolution happened.

    I also like the way Richard Dawkins has explained the concept of a scientific theory in first chapter of "The greatest show on Earth"

    Quote from: muddy  date=1293838756
    There are plenty of videos in "Science and Reason" section providing the proved test results. One of the video is:Although the video is 1 hour long but he will prove it within first 20 minutes or so.

    Thanks. I enjoy watching Richard Dawkin's videos. I also found the following really educational
    "Growing Up in the Universe" lectures from early 90s by Richard Dawkins
    youtube .com/watch?v=jHoxZF3ZgTo

    Quote from: mighty_cats  date=1293839807


    4) I see no reason in finding scientific accuracies or inaccuracies in Quran as it is a book for moral guidance rather than scientific teaching.
    You said yourself about slavery being wrong, Allahs ability to choose who to influence and the problems with hell; There are plenty of issues with apostasy, homosexuality and gender too, not to mention the number of punishments and the political/economic issues Islam seems to cause, that indirectly causes even more inhumane problems..
    Islamic countries have some of the worst records of human rights violations and there is plenty in the Quran to justify it.
    There's good and bad in most things; Its about weighing them up, not cherry picking what to accept and what to ignore.
    Heres a quick video demonstrating that point:


    Thanks. I will watch the documentary.
    I think I was not very clear here. I was not implying that the moral guidance of Quran is perfect. What I meant is that to judge the merits of ANY book claiming spiritual guidance we should be focusing more on the moral values it teaches.  In the discussions like mention of flat earth, sun setting in muddy water etc, the apologists can get away by labeling these as allegories.
    However I do agree with you and also GodIsNotGreat point that a divine book should not contradict scientific or historical facts.  
    Welcome MAS - sitting on the fence hurts the bum.

    Haha ..you bet Smiley . I do not intend to sit on it forever rather trying to break it further. So that I can cross over with  the fat I am carrying from all these years of being fed religiously .
    BTW i like your videos on youtube.
    Mas - nice intro  Afro  Tell us how you found us, and btw good luck on your voyage of discovery.  If you want some more points to add to your list, take a look at the blog in my sig  Afro

    Thanks Islame. I found this forum through google.   I have skimmed through your blog and downloaded the PDF. Seems like a helpful writeup. Will read it in detail InshaAllah Wink.
    I like the qoute in your sig. Smiley


    Thanks again guys





  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #10 - January 01, 2011, 03:49 PM

    3) Most of the criticism of Islam unfortunately is based on doubtful Hadith &#160;collection, limited knowledge, false perceptions or verses taken out of context (in some cases)

    Many of the criticisms people here have to offer are over the Sahih hadith (called most authentic).

    The same hadith that contain unethical statements are the same hadith where the rituals of Islam came from.

    But most Muslims haven't read much of the hadith, and only know of the convenient ones they were told.


    BTW I do not pray these days or observe any other religious practices. Anyways this has become a bit longish introduction. Now that you know a bit about my background, thinking and approach towards Islam, I am looking forward to some useful discussions.

    Even long after people have mentally left Islam, they are still accustomed to this "Muslim" label. Wink

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #11 - January 01, 2011, 04:10 PM

    Welcome ! Here is a parrot and a bunny !

     parrot

     bunny




    El bien mas preciado / es la libertad
    hay que defenderla / con fe y valor.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #12 - January 01, 2011, 04:52 PM

    Thanks. I enjoy watching Richard Dawkin's videos. I also found the following really educational
    "Growing Up in the Universe" lectures from early 90s by Richard Dawkins
    youtube .com/watch?v=jHoxZF3ZgTo

    Very interesting indeed. Although this one was just detailing hierarchy of evolution. The one I quoted provides solid proof of evolution.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #13 - January 02, 2011, 05:15 AM

    Many of the criticisms people here have to offer are over the Sahih hadith (called most authentic).

    The same hadith that contain unethical statements are the same hadith where the rituals of Islam came from.

    But most Muslims haven't read much of the hadith, and only know of the convenient ones they were told.


    I realized long time back that if Hadith Collection is true source of Islam then Islam itself can not be True. 
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #14 - January 02, 2011, 05:30 AM

    Very interesting indeed. Although this one was just detailing hierarchy of evolution. The one I quoted provides solid proof of evolution.

    Sure I will watch it.
    I have read Greatest Show on Earth by Richard Dawkin. The book also does a good job in establishing Theory of Evolution further. Easy to ready as well. Though I was not able to completely understand Chap 8 how DNA helps in formation of body parts and their exact shapes in individuals. Let me know if you can refer any good video to understand this
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #15 - January 02, 2011, 07:22 AM

    Though I was not able to completely understand Chap 8 how DNA helps in formation of body parts and their exact shapes in individuals. Let me know if you can refer any good video to understand this


    OK, think about DNA (genes) as a computer software, that has been written by trial and error over millions/billions of years and has all the codes for production of an organ. Now we have a computer software that can build a car from raw metal and plastic, right? Also think about a stream of water that is running down a slope, when ever the water encounters a stone, it changes course so that it continue running downwards. Afro

    ...
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #16 - January 02, 2011, 01:47 PM

    Sure I will watch it.
    I have read Greatest Show on Earth by Richard Dawkin. The book also does a good job in establishing Theory of Evolution further. Easy to ready as well. Though I was not able to completely understand Chap 8 how DNA helps in formation of body parts and their exact shapes in individuals. Let me know if you can refer any good video to understand this

    This is not what you are looking for, but you might like it if you havent seen it already (this is just the main theme of a much longer video if you like it)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCXzcPNsqGA



    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #17 - January 02, 2011, 02:43 PM

    Quote
    1) I am still trying to judge the various explanations for the above


    The other forum members gave you answers, and if you browse the forum, you will see countless discussions made on the issues mentioned by you, and other issues that make Islam so appalling for rational human beings that have a minimal amount of reflection and skeptical thinking in their brains..

    Quote
    2) Apart from the few doubts I have including the ones above, the rest of the teachings mostly appeal to me like not drinking alcohol, dressing decently, &#38;#160;caring for parents, orphans etc


    Morality is independent of Religion.. Claiming that Humans didn't have moral values prior to Islam or any other Religion means that human prior to the monotheistic religions were more immoral than many mammals that do care about the orphans (elephants), share food, cooperate to get food, care for their elders (humanoid fossils in Georgia prove that)... All the basic Moral Values are the basis of our existence..  In the worst case we would have failed as a species if there were no norms whatsoever, or at least we would have evolved completely different and would have not formed societies and communal behavior...  Each basic human value that were hijacked by the religions, and sold as their own creation was a MUST for HUMAN EVOLUTION as we know it...

    - If we would have not cared for our elders, we would have less free time to get food, create tools and paintings since we would have to take care of our child all the time...
    - If we would have not taken care of the orphans, than surely we would not count on the society to take care of our own offspring if we happen to die... Plus in early human societies, every surviving individual was a high asset, as it was one more individual that would work for food, tools and fight for the Clan...
    - If every human would go and become an Alcoholic, we surely will fail as a society... Even in Countries where alcohol is consumed, only a small percentage are actually ALCOHOLICS or abuse other Drugs... There is a guaranteed "deviant" behavior in every society whether religion prohibits substances or allows them... The people who need/want drugs will get them no matter what no matter where....
    - As far as the dress code , i think that dress codes and decency are highly subjective... But one thing I can say with certain guarantee, and that is that "all body black costumes" are not suitable for hot climates... And lets not even start the entire issue of how obligatory dress codes in Islamic societies are used to enforce segregation and domination of one gender over the other...

    Quote
    3) Most of the criticism of Islam unfortunately is based on doubtful Hadith &#38;#160;collection, limited knowledge, false perceptions or verses taken out of context (in some cases)


    Not really... Fundamental issues are criticised also, like allowing incest (deviant behavior by the values of most societies - even Muslim ones, and scientifically proven as harmful), the words of women being worth half of those spoken by men etc etc... These issues put the existence of God as the author of the holy books in serious question, and his/her/it's existence highly in question
     
    Quote
    4) I see no reason in finding scientific accuracies or inaccuracies in Quran as it is a book for moral guidance rather than scientific teaching.


    I totally agree with you as far as you say that Quran is supposed to serve as a moral guide and not a scientific book... But the same book, authored by GOD HIMSELF makes claims that are not proven right, or are scientifically incorrect... In this case either THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, THE ALL-KNOWING BEING is making mistakes that are easily proven as mistakes or THERE IS NO GOD / THE ORIGIN OF THE HOLY BOOKS IS NOT DIVINE.... I rather think there is no God than think that there is a God who makes mistakes that "coincidentally" are the same as those of the humans in the time when the books were written.

    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #18 - January 04, 2011, 04:56 PM

    OK, think about DNA (genes) as a computer software, that has been written by trial and error over millions/billions of years and has all the codes for production of an organ. Now we have a computer software that can build a car from raw metal and plastic, right? Also think about a stream of water that is running down a slope, when ever the water encounters a stone, it changes course so that it continue running downwards. Afro


    Thanks RIBS. I read the chapter 8 from Dawkin's book again. What I understand is that the fertilized egg contains all types of cell. During formation of body the cells divide in to two cell copying the same genes in to each daughter. However different genes are turned off and on thus controlling which enzymes are produced and how cells combine to form shape of the organ. ..... ummmm may be I will read it again to get more sense out of this....

    BTW I will not give building a car from raw material analogy to a creationist .... for obvious reasons ...  Wink
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #19 - January 04, 2011, 05:04 PM

    This is not what you are looking for, but you might like it if you havent seen it already (this is just the main theme of a much longer video if you like it)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCXzcPNsqGA




    I did not see this before. Very neat simulation of natural selection considering it was done with the technology available in 1994.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #20 - January 04, 2011, 05:11 PM

    imagine what fine e-creature  jousting contests a 2011 program would produce!

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #21 - January 04, 2011, 05:21 PM


    Morality is independent of Religion.. Claiming that Humans didn't have moral values prior to Islam or any other Religion means that human prior to the monotheistic religions were more immoral than many mammals that do care about the orphans (elephants), share food, cooperate to get food, care for their elders (humanoid fossils in Georgia prove that)... All the basic Moral Values are the basis of our existence..  In the worst case we would have failed as a species if there were no norms whatsoever, or at least we would have evolved completely different and would have not formed societies and communal behavior...  Each basic human value that were hijacked by the religions, and sold as their own creation was a MUST for HUMAN EVOLUTION as we know it...

    - If we would have not cared for our elders, we would have less free time to get food, create tools and paintings since we would have to take care of our child all the time...
    - If we would have not taken care of the orphans, than surely we would not count on the society to take care of our own offspring if we happen to die... Plus in early human societies, every surviving individual was a high asset, as it was one more individual that would work for food, tools and fight for the Clan...
    - If every human would go and become an Alcoholic, we surely will fail as a society... Even in Countries where alcohol is consumed, only a small percentage are actually ALCOHOLICS or abuse other Drugs... There is a guaranteed "deviant" behavior in every society whether religion prohibits substances or allows them... The people who need/want drugs will get them no matter what no matter where....
    - As far as the dress code , i think that dress codes and decency are highly subjective... But one thing I can say with certain guarantee, and that is that "all body black costumes" are not suitable for hot climates... And lets not even start the entire issue of how obligatory dress codes in Islamic societies are used to enforce segregation and domination of one gender over the other...

    My explanation for morality would be similar from non-religious humanist perspective. I also think that both religion and morality are product of social evolution of human beings.

    I agree that decent dress code is subjective however i did not mean All body black costumes as this is not ordered in Quran according to my understanding.

  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #22 - January 04, 2011, 06:25 PM

    Welcome to the forum victory

    I hope you find the answers you seek no matter which way you choose to go Smiley

    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #23 - January 04, 2011, 06:29 PM

    Salam MA5

    I think you should carry on praying and beseech God and ask him for patience.
    Patience is the key to overcoming struggles.
    You have to find your own answers, questioning should lead to you seeking knowledge and coming up with your own conclusions.
    As a Muslim, this is my advice to you. I had to go through the same think.

    If you want to talk about anything let me know.

  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #24 - January 04, 2011, 06:38 PM

    Salam MA5

    I think you should carry on praying and beseech God and ask him for patience.
    Patience is the key to overcoming struggles.
    You have to find your own answers, questioning should lead to you seeking knowledge and coming up with your own conclusions.
    As a Muslim, this is my advice to you. I had to go through the same think.

    If you want to talk about anything let me know.



    Hi AbaAbdillah
    Interesting to see first response from a Muslim and I appreciate your offer
    Can you answer the specific questions I have listed in my first post

    Secondly what made you not leave Islam?
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #25 - January 04, 2011, 06:40 PM

    Salam MA5

    I think you should carry on praying and beseech God and ask him for patience.
    Patience is the key to overcoming struggles.
    You have to find your own answers, questioning should lead to you seeking knowledge and coming up with your own conclusions.
    As a Muslim, this is my advice to you. I had to go through the same think.

    If you want to talk about anything let me know.




    Hi AbaAbdillah - why not post an intro in Introductions forum and let us know a bit about yourself Smiley
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #26 - January 04, 2011, 07:19 PM


    Quote
    My explanation for morality would be similar from non-religious humanist perspective. I also think that both religion and morality are product of social evolution of human beings.

    I agree that decent dress code is subjective however i did not mean All body black costumes as this is not ordered in Quran according to my understanding.


    Well, MAS, you do not need to attribute these teachings to Islam, when you yourself have the capability to understand  from where these moral values come from and why are they necessary in a society.




    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #27 - January 04, 2011, 09:32 PM

    Bismillah

    Salam MAS. I can try my best to answer your questions and I do not know if they will be satisfactory for you.
    Very briefly I will touch on them, if you require more detail I can do so later.

    1) Concept of hell for eternity does not seem fair. Though one explanation is that it will appear like eternity due to level of suffering. Even then is this fair.

    From my own Islamic understanding and conclusion. Satan when he argued with God against his decision of preferring humans to him, he refused to bow to Adam and became cursed (meaning God removed His Mercy for satan) rather than satan repenting, his own arrogance made him challenge God that he would prove that we are not worthy of that preference and that he could easily turn us away and make us disbelief in Him and show Him ingratitude.
    So God replied that whoever agrees with Satan will end up with him, i.e in hell.
    As for an eternity. All the ones who as the hadith says have a "mustard seed of faith" in their hearts will eventually be taken out of hell fire. But the ones who disbelieve in God completely, they will have God's Mercy removed, so therefore they will abide there permanently.

    Also keep in mind, that a person has to be sane to make a decision, and has to have had Islam reach him/her in a convincing way and not in the repulsive way that it is shown today, not only in the media, but by ignorant Muslims who have no manners. People of fitrah (e.g people in the amazon) and the people who have not heard anything about Islam, and even the ones murdered who weren't allowed to live out their full lives, I am more than certain of God's Mercy, that he will take all situations into account, and God knows best.
     
    2) Slavery and allowance of intimacy with female slaves

    This was something that was practiced in all places in the pre-modern world. The ones that lost in a war, their families became slaves of their victors. It was all very common in those times and largely accepted, even the Prophet Abraham in the Bible was quoted as having a slave girl. Galatians 4:22 "For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman." From my understanding these things no longer apply. And if Muslims apply that today, then they shouldn't complain about the way their women are treated in warfare.
    It is quite a delicate topic that needs alot of expansion, I do not know too much about it, I will wrap it up by quoting what Muhammad (SAW) said "“If any of you have a slave girl, whom he gives good education and excellent training, and then he emancipates her and marries her, he shall have a two-fold reward.”

    3) Why is Quran not structured to be clearly understood without any doubts if it is guidance for all mankind

    It was a revelation that was revealed in a certain time and understood in a certain context. If you wish to understand it, you have to look at every particular verse and why it was revealed and in what context. Most of what came down was a response to questions posed to the Prophet(SAW), or addressing a certain situation, or confirmation of old stories and scriptures to bring converts from among the Christians and Jews and to purify their teachings.
    The Quran is not intended to be read as a story but looked at as a book of lessons. In life you will learn by experience, parables, events, metaphors (if you still don't get the point) and knowledge.
    So it will give you some knowledge of the unseen, tell you stories to draw lessons, and give you metaphors and it will address some questions.
    That is why I hate the approach of people like Zakir Naik and Harun Yahya. I do not agree with trying to use the Quran as a book of scientific Miracles by stretching some verses far out of context, with all due respect to them.
    Although I believe that there is truthful science in the Quran, some I can think of, the speed of light, the barriers between seas and rivers, embryology, the big crunch, the big bang...  

    4) I can not digest the part where Quran mentions that Allah guides who he wants and let others go astray. And did Allah create human so that he can have most of them burn in hell for eternity.

    What is meant is that, the person has to want that guidance, a quote from the Quran says "He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and He misleadeth thereby ONLY MISCREANTS; Those who break the covenant of Allah after ratifying it, and sever that which Allah ordered to be joined, and (who) make mischief in the earth: Those are they who are the losers." 2:26-27
    No person is just doomed, every person has a chance to change their lives around. How many people have you seen who were the worst "sinners" whether they be average people, or celebs, who have turned their lives around completely and became religious.
    Just read up on Malcolm X Smiley
    Refer to the first question. I can expand more, but I am trying to be brief.

    5) The theory of evolution makes a lot of sense to me. However it does not seem to be compatible with Islam unless we do not take the story of Adam and Eve to be literal.

    I believe in evolution. Adam and Eve (As) were according to some hadiths 90 feet. Some ignorant Muslims have tried to show that the first human was 90 feet and use hoaxes on the internet for their proof, which is cringeworthy. The reason why I mentioned that, is because in Islam, in the afterlife we will have different bodies. Now 90 feet was the height of Adam (AS) in PARADISE and not on earth, because he was removed from paradise and sent down to the lowest heaven along with Eve (As) and satan.
    So in the hadiths it appropriately says that the occupants of hell and paradise will have different bodies, and that the occpuants of paradise will be 90 feet and that the occupants of hell will have skin that keeps healing and extremely wide shoulders to feel excess pain, which sounds terrifying and rather harsh (I admit).
    Now which brings me to my actual point!!! How do we know that after Adam (As) was thrown out of paradise his soul was not placed in the first man that was created out of evolution?
    Can that possibility be ruled out scientifically speaking?

    And it might interest you to know that Muslim scientists such as Ibn Khaldun, al Jahiz, Nasir al din al tusi, al Biruni and many more came up with the theory of evolution long before Darwin hopped on the bandwagon.
    Ibn Khaldun said in his book Muqadimmah "The higher stage of man is reached from the world of monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man. This is as far as our (physical) observation extends"
    http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ik/Muqaddimah/Chapter1/Ch_1_06.htm

    6) Various events like the Nuh's flood as mentioned in Quran appear like fairy tales. Some how I can not digest these miracles now. I did not think about it earlier.

    Even an atheist friend who I work with concedes that a flood did occur of what is talked about in the Bible and Quran, but he doesn't believe the accounts that they give. The Bible says it was worldwide, the Quran says local. People weren't living on other continents at the time due to them not being discovered, so I disagree with the Bible.

    7) There is no ideal muslim society to look up to. What is the use of teachings which are not effective in real life. The political mess started right after death of prophet Muhammad in early years of Islam e.g. War of the camel.

    You'll have to explain what you mean, as for your latter point, it is never going to be perfect after the Prophet (SAW). Yes there were many civil wars that occured and disagreements, but this is a human problem it's never going to go away. I take it that you might be a Shia, because I do not believe that the political mess started right after the death of the Prophet (SAW), so I disagree with that point.
    And you have to look at what the Muslim world achieved, not just the negative parts. Religion is not immune to being hijacked by corruptive rulers. Many Muslim rulers have been extremely barbaric.
    You should also look at the expansion of the Muslim empire:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_empire
    Also read about the al andalus:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus
    Read about Muslim scientists:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_scientists

    I agree that there are alot of problems right now in the Muslim world and have been so for a very long time, but you should also look at what good has come out of Muslim civilisation, otherwise you're not being objective. And bottom line is human beings are always going to have flaws.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #28 - January 04, 2011, 09:37 PM

    Quote
    And it might interest you to know that Muslim scientists such as Ibn Khaldun, al Jahiz, Nasir al din al tusi, al Biruni and many more came up with the theory of evolution long before Darwin hopped on the bandwagon.
    Ibn Khaldun said in his book Muqadimmah "The higher stage of man is reached from the world of monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man. This is as far as our (physical) observation extends"


    Everything is Islam Grin

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #29 - January 04, 2011, 09:43 PM

    Welcome to the dark side  furious........I mean welcome to the forum Cheesy

    "its fashionable to be an ex Muslim these days"
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