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 Topic: ReasoningAndThinking vs TheRationalizer

 (Read 2597 times)
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  • ReasoningAndThinking vs TheRationalizer
     OP - December 12, 2010, 01:47 PM

    Hi.

    I have copy/pasted our youtube conversation below so that if you wish you can go ahead and prune your video comments.  The rules of the one-on-one forum (in which I have posted this) is that nobody but you and I are allowed to post in it.  Although it is possible for others to post they tend not to out of respect for the forum rules, if they do post something (which is rare) then ignore it and when an admin sees it they will delete it.

    Additional benefits of this forum are
    1: We can have MUCH longer responses.
    2: We can easily quote each other.
    3: We get email notifications when the other person has replied, so it's easier to keep track of (youtube sometimes doesn't notify me of responses.)

    I look forward to reading what your research leads you to conclude.

    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    I can't believe that there would be someone who KNOWS Allah is real yet conceals it and disobeys.

    It's like being tied to a chair and doused in petrol, and someone you know for a fact is a serial murderer is standing next to you with a box of matches saying "Admit I exist or I will set fire to you"....and THEN denying that they exist.

    What sense does that make?


    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    Did I say that kafir makes sense?

    There so stupid then they will be burnt, so you can say for a fact that Allah burns idiots, that why Quran is so against kafir, not innocent people.

    "The worst of creature (human beings) in Allah's sight are the deaf and dumb who do not use their reason." (Surat al-Anfal: 22)

    But of course I think I need to make a video and explain why people conceals the truth but I'm too lazy, I'm not sure how I even made this O,o.



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    Do you think that burning someone for eternity is a fit sentence for any crime?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    Well, there are some evil people that deserve to burn like e.g I seen some people skinning animals ALIVE :(.

    Anyway I have full trust in Allah that only the one who deserve Hell, will enter it.

    WE BELIEVE not a single soul will say "Allah has treated with me unjustly".

    Anyway unlike Allah's Mercy, the Hell isn't forever it seems since Quran say that people will stay in Hell forever or UNTIL Allah Wills because He does what He likes. So Allah doesn't love to burn people.



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    Can you explain 2:162 to me

    2:162 - They will stay cursed (in hell) forever. Never will their torment be relieved, nor will they have a reprieve.



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    Forever in other words I would interpret it as that as long as Hell lasts, they will be in it forever because e.g "forever" in this world mean as long as this world exists that you will not enter THIS house forever , that mean as long as THIS house exists.

    As for the people in Paradise, it is said that they never be asked to leave.

    So if Allah ends Paradise then people will complain but if Allah ends Hell , will anyone complain?



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    Forever = forever, never ending, eternity.

    Why would forever in hell mean "for as long as hell exists" but forever in heaven not mean "for as long as heaven exists"?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    Well it has come to my notice that the Arabic word for "forever" isn't used for Hell, only for Paradise, the word used for Hell which is translated as "forever" is "a very long time". But I'm gonna do a little more research and get back to you on this.

    Anyway the reason is that Paradise is Allah's Mercy while Hell is Allah's Anger and according to Allah , His Mercy outstrips His Anger, in other word He likes His Mercy to stay forever but His Anger to be limited.



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    Burning someone to death is a horrific way for someone to die, and it takes minutes. How long do you think it is fair to burn someone in fire for, for a crime such as murder?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    You sound like people are going in Hell for just murder.

    Beside like I said, only the worst of the worst who deserve such a punishment shall take it.



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    I cannot think of a single crime which deserves someone to be burned to death, let alone burned beyond the point that would cause death. Can you name me 3?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    Thats why I'm not the judge to tell who deserves what. For all we know that Allah might end up forgiving almost all of us.



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    I am not asking you to tell me how many people will be saved. I am asking you to think and then reason as to which crimes you think makes someone deserve to be burned beyond the point which would normally cause death. What are those crimes that YOU think warrant such a punishment?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    I would say Murder .



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    So you think it would be acceptable to burn murderers to death?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    Yes.



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    That's pretty disgusting.

    Is Allah the ultimate in mercy? There is no human more merciful than Allah?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    Totally expecting that..

    Because your narrowed me down to a SINGLE crime.

    Alright, so what punishment would you give if someone killed millions ?



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    I would make every person experience the effects they had on every other person in their life. So if you kill someone then you get to live the point you kidnapped them, have to live the fear etc, feel the pain as you were killed. Then because the death causes emotional suffering to others I'd make you experience every second of the grief experienced by everyone affected.

    You experience only exactly what you forced others to experience, the punishment fits the crime 100%.



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    And if he goes suicide?



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    This punishment is beyond my natural means, it is what I think is a just punishment for any and all crimes that could be issued by god.

    Suicide would be impossible. You'd be a helpless conscious observer within the mind of everyone you affected in life.

    Does that sound fair?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    In other words, you are torturing him and making him feel bad about what he did?



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    I am making him experience the consequences of his own actions, both good and bad, so that he can understand the exact affect he had on the lives of everyone else.

    Good people experience more pleasure, bad people experience more misery. Once you reach the end it is over.



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    And your here thinking that Allah is punishing someone more than he deserve? Yes?



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    Not only that, but in a WAY they do not deserve. For example a bullet to someone's head from behind will cause instant death. For that does the murderer deserve 1000 years in fire, or do they just need to feel the sadness inflicted on all of the victim's relatives?

    But this is a fictitious scenario. I believe when we die we die. All I would do to anyone who has murdered would be to lock them up until they die, so they can't kill others.



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    Dude you don't understand what is Hell now do you? I'm looking forward to people getting skinned alive for skinning those poor animals alive in Hell =P.

    People in Hell are not getting more punished than they deserve.

    Beside being burn was only a description valid for Arabs just like cool gardens in Paradise.

    Paradise is what you want , not just Gardens, anything you want.

    Hell is what you don't want, not just Fire , the punishment for your crimes.



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    You are making it up. Nowhere does the Quran say that, or a single hadith. You have just made it up and then instantly believed it without evidence. Do you think that is a rational thing to do?

    I wouldn't make them feel the pain of what they did, only the emotions. Fear, sadness, happiness, etc. Pain is a material experience.

    So, now your diversion is over...Is Allah more merciful than any human?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    And Where does the Quran say that people are being punished more than they deserve? YES?



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    People who believe in Allah yet deny it are burned in fire, I think that is more than they deserve for a start. I think that burning anyone for anything is more than they deserve.

    But you avoided my question, is Allah more merciful than any human?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    Well Ofcourse you are not aware of why people even though they know the truth, deny it now do you ?

    Yes Allah is merciful than any human.



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    So, if Allah is more merciful than any human explain this to me.

    1: You say people deserve to be burned in fire for murder

    2: I have witnessed the mother of a murdered boy forgive the gang member who murdered her son.

    So, why is the mother of this murdered son willing to forgive her son's murderer but Allah is not? Is she not more merciful than Allah?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    Mother forgiveness save the murder from the law

    however if the victim doesn't forgive the murder than neither will Allah because its not Allah who he sinned against.



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    And where does it say that in the Quran or Hadith?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    Well Allah says that He will forgive any sin against Him however murder isn't against Allah, its against another person .

    However I can't find that Hadith.

    It was about a brother refusing to forgive his brother on the Day.



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    Time in hell = forever

    2:162, 3:88

    Time in heaven = forever

    3:15, 5:85

    the word used for "forever" in both cases is (kh)aalidiyna. So, is hell eternal, or is heaven temporary?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    Yeah I guess your right. Hell is eternal.



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    Good, thank you for conceding a point when presented with the evidence.

    Now, imagine eternity. 1 billion years is not even 1% of the way in. 1 billion years to the power of 1 billion years is not even 1% of the way in either, because it NEVER ends.

    Now, what crime do you think deserves someone to be burned in fire for all eternity, and do you think that any being which would subject someone to it is all merciful?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    But I don't see why people wouldn't go to Hell since they picked Hell (not following truth even when they know it) instead of Paradise?



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    And you don't think they'd change their mind once they got into the fire? Would an all-merciful god commit them to an infinite punishment for a crime they committed in a finite life time?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    We're saying here is if you know its the truth and it is given that if you don't follow you will go to Paradise and if you don't , you will go to Hell. So if man honestly choose Hell then what?

    Rest is ok, Allah oversee mistakes and ignorance.

    We're saying if you know that its crystal clear that this road leads to safety and that one leads to a pit, would you take the one that leads to the pit? (Note: Its confirmed that it leads to a pit).

    I mean "if you do follow it, you will go to paradise".



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    How can anyone KNOW it is true? Nobody knows it for a fact any more than a Hindhu knows for a fact that Vishnu is real. If someone KNOWS it is true then it would not be a faith based system of worship, and that is exactly what Islam is.

    But then, what about the brother in your hadith who would not forgive? Does his brother now deserve eternity in fire?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    No, it seems according to the Quran the murder would be forgiven.

    Anyway I'm saying if you know it for a fact.

    Again, I'm not saying you will go to Hell like if you don't submit to Christ without even knowing that he was a lamb to be sacrificed in the first place.

    You know the apple is poisonous and other apple is fine , I'm asking you the question, will you in the right mind, eat the poisonous fruit?



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    *Nobody* knows for a fact, do they?

    And then what if they know it for a fact but like you thought that the punishment in fire would be limited and fair rather than eternal and unfair? Is it fair to punish that person for eternity?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    That would be a stupid excuse to pick Hell even if it was limited and fair .

    Kafir are people who know for a fact.

    so answer the question Tongue.



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    I don't want to argue analogies, it's like comparing apples and oranges :-)

    So, do you think that *eternity* in hell fire is fair? Do you think that anyone who chose to jump into a real fire during their life is mentally sound enough to be judged, let alone someone who knows equally that an eternal fire is awaiting them?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    I'm asking.

    IN YOUR RIGHT MIND.

    Would you jump into the fire?



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    You said "in your right mind", and that is exactly my point.

    Nobody in their right mind would know for a fact that there is fire in front of them, know for a fact the pain it will cause to jump into it, and then jump into it.

    So what does that leave us with? Mentally ill people. Do you think it is fair that god would punish mentally ill people in fire for eternity?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    If they are mentally ill then Allah will save them.

    I'm talking about people who are not mentally ill? Are they worthy to be saved?

    YES OR NO.



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    Who deliberately jumps into a fire and is not to be considered mentally ill?



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    "considered"

    Your avoiding the question.



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    I don't like to argue analogies, ever. I will answer it this time, but in future please do not use them, just stick to the topic.

    1: I would NOT eat an apple I knew for a fact was poisoned.

    2: NOBODY knows for a fact that Islam is true.

    Anyone who performs an action which they know 100% for certain will result in them burning in fire cannot be considered sane.



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    Hmmm well I was gonna point out something but it seems I don't have faith in that argument, I wish to end the debate here.

    I need to go study a little more than I'll come to you , ok?

    Thanks for talking.



    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    Sure, let me know what you find out.



    Quote from: ReasoningAndThinking
    k, thanks


    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: ReasoningAndThinking vs TheRationalizer
     Reply #1 - December 13, 2010, 11:08 AM

    Ops: You may as well delete this thread.  As soon as he saw "councilofexmuslims" he bottled it Cheesy

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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