Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
Yesterday at 06:41 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
April 27, 2024, 01:26 PM

New Britain
April 27, 2024, 08:42 AM

What's happened to the fo...
April 27, 2024, 08:30 AM

Qur'anic studies today
April 23, 2024, 02:50 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 20, 2024, 08:02 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 19, 2024, 12:17 AM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 05:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 08:06 AM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 05:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 08:53 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Should we be monogamous?

 (Read 37263 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 3« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #60 - November 22, 2010, 08:56 PM

    Love isn’t always healthy. Its often pleasure and pain in equal measure. To trust someone completely, to hand yourself over to them completely, share yourself willingly and unashamed, is to open yourself up and make yourself vulnerable to hurt, rejection, tragedy and heartbreak. But that’s the risk you take. And the gamble sometimes pays off, and when it does it makes it all worthwhile. It can be dangerous and difficult. It wouldn’t be fun if it was easy.

    Your joy is your sorrow unmasked. And the selfsame well from which your laughter rises was oftentimes filled with your tears. And how else can it be? The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.
    ~ Kahlil Gibran


    What is it then?
    Yes. Fickle and fleeting, but relationships none the less. I’m talking about relationship in the broadest sense - a connection between two people. In this case lust and desire, hot chemical fever, union of spirits, becoming the beast with two backs, however you want to describe it. I don’t mean weddings, family meals, hearts and flowers. I’m talking about the union, the human interplay, the relationship.
    There is more to physical intimacy that having sex. Do they hold hands? Kiss and cuddle? Massage? Wash each others backs in the bath? Feel comfortable naked in front of each other? Without any form of physical intimacy, what else is it apart from a friendship? A friendship with… financial stability? With status? With a title or label?



    It’s a bit presumptuous and extreme to think that just because your partner is the centre of your universe, you neglect other family or friends to the degree that it would become a bad thing. I’m not entirely sure where you’re going with that line of thinking.

    But apart from that, are you telling me you’ve never experienced a ‘honeymoon’ phase of a new relationship where you cant stop thinking about a person, wait by the phone just in case they call, get excited and nervous when you know you’re going to see them again, turn down invites from your friends because you just want to stay in together, or bore your friends stupid by constantly talking about how amazing they are? Please tell me you’ve felt that at some point in your life.



    I like the quote, but I'm too old to be as romantic as you are about love and throwing yourself in completely and all that. Too much experience behind me for that to seem a reasonable path. A person's perspective changes over time with the introduction of new experience, thought, and study. I certainly didn't hold the views I do now earlier in my life, or even a few years ago. I imagine I would have found it quite alien then as well.

     
    Sex CAN be nothing more than two bodies rubbing various parts together for the purpose of transient physical stimulation and gratification. Perhaps you and I have different definitions of the word relationship. Two in such a state are RELATING, but to my understanding a relationship is a bit more ongoing than that, even if it is brief.

    I guess what I mean is that a person can mentally relate to someone as a romantic partner without any physical intimacy, even the latter additions you mentioned.

    And sure, I have felt the feelings you've described. I wouldn't call them healthy though, or something to be considered ideal from an objective perspective. They feel good though, atleast until we realize that this obsession is taking over our otherwise normally functioning minds. And when you are in that condition you are quite likely to neglect others in your life, as you alluded to in your example.


    Sorry I haven't mastered the split quotes...



    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #61 - November 22, 2010, 09:15 PM

    Bruised egos and insecurity can and quite often do lead to other things.  The relationship will also change.  It's virtually impossible not to hurt the first in most cases.  Perhaps one partner is not as attractive as the other and could not express him/herself more frequently than the other one does, how do you think they would feel?  Are you going to be naive enough to tell me that it doesn't change the their partner's perception of them too?

    No it has nothing to do with not being the centre of the universe at all, people get upset because third parties would be coming within a sacred area and between them and their partners.


    It is the same kind of 'jealousy' that makes people put their kids above anything else in the world, fight to retain important positions, and not give up in situations too.  It is fighting for what is valuable, more than jealousy per se, no one shares what is valuable.

     The rules to survive environments have not changed either.  And it is ironic that you talk about jealousy, which has to do be with being self centered when you believe in another form of self centeredness and putting your self expression before everything else and everyone else.

















    Very good arguments, thanks. In my personal case the bruised ego, etc. doesn't occur because I don't make it known if I am seeing someone else. It's rather a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of scenario. Sure it can change perceptions, I'm not denying that. It's all about balancing the needs of both people. If someone truly considers the sexual space in a relationship as sacred and involiable, then obviously this type of relationship is not going to work for them. Not everyone sees it that way though.

    I don't agree that we shouldn't share what is valuable. It is selfless to share someone/something you know to be good, even if you would rather have it all to yourself. And I don't think your examples ring true. If I put my kids first, that means I am acting in THEIR best interest and not necessarily mine, whereas if I am jealous and don't want my partner to spend time with someone else, that is because that stance is in MY best interest, not his. Fighting for positions is again, most probably in MY best interest, and not giving up could go either way.

    Could it be that if we were raised differently, and I mean radically differently, your final question could fit the argument AGAINST monogamy? If we were raised to believe that there is no such thing as sexual ownership of others and that no one has the right to demand such from another, wouldn't we then be calling the one who made such a demand self-centered? I personally would never try to force a person to accept my lifestyle, nor would I accept the same from another. I realize not everyone is in a position to feel comfortable with such arrangements though.

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #62 - November 24, 2010, 04:42 PM

    I don't like chasing for things I can't have.

    "you won't know if you don't try" or "atleast its worth the shot"

    "love is about losing yourself in the process, being vulnerable and allowing yourself to be hurt, and if you do get hurt, accepting it"

    no.

    love is about putting yourself in that other person's shoes and trying to know what they feel like
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #63 - November 27, 2010, 06:33 AM



    Very good arguments, thanks. In my personal case the bruised ego, etc. doesn't occur because I don't make it known if I am seeing someone else. It's rather a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of scenario.


    It's not too different from cheating is it?  Do you honestly think that not telling is going to prevent a bruised ego?


     Sure it can change perceptions, I'm not denying that. It's all about balancing the needs of both people. If someone truly considers the sexual space in a relationship as sacred and involiable, then obviously this type of relationship is not going to work for them. Not everyone sees it that way though.


    Agreed, as I said, I have no objections to someone being part of such a relationship, it just wouldn't work for me.  Which is why I think people should be very open and straight forward about these things, before taking the next step


    I don't agree that we shouldn't share what is valuable. It is selfless to share someone/something you know to be good, even if you would rather have it all to yourself.


    That depends on what I am sharing.  


     And I don't think your examples ring true. If I put my kids first, that means I am acting in THEIR best interest and not necessarily mine, whereas if I am jealous and don't want my partner to spend time with someone else, that is because that stance is in MY best interest, not his. Fighting for positions is again, most probably in MY best interest, and not giving up could go either way.


    Biologically and psychologically the interests of your kids are your interests too.  They have inherited half of their chromosomes from you.  Psychologically they almost a continuation of you too.  


    Could it be that if we were raised differently, and I mean radically differently, your final question could fit the argument AGAINST monogamy? If we were raised to believe that there is no such thing as sexual ownership of others and that no one has the right to demand such from another, wouldn't we then be calling the one who made such a demand self-centered? I personally would never try to force a person to accept my lifestyle, nor would I accept the same from another. I realize not everyone is in a position to feel comfortable with such arrangements though.


    Well for starters I for one was not raised to believe that I have the right to sexually own others and your use of the word 'demand' is slightly inaccurate too.  It is more a case of stating what would work and what wouldn't work for one, which I think is important as both partners would have an early indication of whether the relationship is going to work, and save them a lot of pain if it has no future.

    Furthermore I am quite sure that our values would have an impact on how we viewed monogamy.  I do not expect a bedouin to have any objections to polygamy for one.  But as you are theorising about a society which is altruistic, selflessness would be seen as the highest virtue.  Part of being selfless means putting your partner before yourself and seeing that she is comfortable and happy even if she might not make any demands but keep her discomfort to herself (given our human nature we are bound to feel insecure).  And therefore after assessing the pros and cons and after deciding that this partner means a lot, the selfless person would feel willingly make personal sacrifices for the greater good (which in our case happens to be the relationship)

    So no I don't think it would be a good argument against monogamy.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #64 - November 27, 2010, 09:13 PM

    Well, not telling could be called cheating, I suppose, but for me the criterion for that designation is whether or not one cheats/breaks an agreement. Though I'm not a very jealous person myself, I think I'd probably rather not know if my partner had another partner, unless it was hurting him to keep it from me. As far as the bruised ego goes, my partner shows no signs of having one. I made this understanding with him from the beginning, and one year later everything is still really good between us, even though it was really alien to him at first.

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #65 - November 27, 2010, 11:06 PM

    Well in that case I'm happy for both of  you and wish you the best.  Make sure both of you take into account health risks and pregnancies and all that, but then I'm sure you did

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #66 - November 30, 2010, 03:12 AM

    Thanks. Definitely very concerned and responsible about health issues, for both of us.  yes

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #67 - December 10, 2010, 03:25 PM

    yes we should be monogamous! how else could we raise a family unless you're suggesting that it all falls on the poor mother's shoulders?

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #68 - December 10, 2010, 09:31 PM

    Why do you necessarily correlate a mother raising children by herself with polyamory? I could envision more help with children, not less, if the additional partners of the the parents got involved in the child-rearing as well. Being polyamorous doesn't mean one ignores their responsibilities to their children. And also, why do you assume it would be the mother that would be the one to carry an extra burden?

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #69 - December 10, 2010, 10:56 PM

    I read your post many times but still couldn't understand what you're trying to say, newsoul. Do you mind making it easier for me?

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #70 - December 10, 2010, 10:57 PM

    very simply:
    why monogamy? coz polygamy hurts almost all humans
    why burden on mother? coz that's how nature is

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #71 - December 11, 2010, 07:16 PM

    Perhaps polygamy hurts when it does because of its inherent inequality. It arises in patriarchal societies where men are in control socially, economically, and religiously and can dictate how, when, and even if their attentions and resources will be distributed among partners. Women have very limited power in that scenario.

    Polyamory, in a modern context, I think develops from a far more egalitarian world view. It assumes that BOTH partners have things to gain and lose from relationships and that the needs of one partner are not subservient to the other. In the form to which I refer, it recognizes that love and a meaningful and profound sense of connection can develop for more than one person at a time and that recognizing and accepting and acting on that reality may be in our best interest.

    Perhaps you should read through the entire thread. What is it exactly that you are not understanding?

     

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #72 - December 11, 2010, 08:24 PM

    Nothing... you cleared a lot up.
    But I now think polyamory/polygamy should be fine if both partners agree on it.

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #73 - December 11, 2010, 11:51 PM

    I wasn't aiming to convert anyone, LOL! Just wanted to get people to rethink their assumptions on the correct way to live. I hope the discussion gave you some good food for thought.

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #74 - December 14, 2010, 11:32 AM

    Very good arguments, thanks. In my personal case the bruised ego, etc. doesn't occur because I don't make it known if I am seeing someone else. It's rather a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of scenario. Sure it can change perceptions, I'm not denying that. It's all about balancing the needs of both people. If someone truly considers the sexual space in a relationship as sacred and involiable, then obviously this type of relationship is not going to work for them. Not everyone sees it that way though.

    The idea of fidelity and infidelity are completely irrelevant in a relationship where you're both shagging around behind each others backs anyway and neither of you are bothered about it.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #75 - December 14, 2010, 10:26 PM

    It depends on what fidelity means to you. If it's all about allowing yourself to be or even wanting to be sexually possessed by another person, then a polyamorous lifestyle does make fidelity irrelevant. There are more important aspects to fidelity in my view, however. A commitment to being open-hearted, nurturing, learning and growing together, and being a stable and loving source of support are far more important to me than having someone's exclusive sexual fealty.

    I don't mean to pry or criticize you, but I detect a lot of anger around the idea of non-monogamy from you. I can certainly empathize with it, but I'm wondering if you would like to go a little deeper and try to tease out what is at the heart of that. 

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #76 - December 14, 2010, 11:53 PM

    You "detect a lot of anger"? Who the fuck are you, Mystic Meg? Was it a crystal ball that told you that, or a disturbance in the force? And "... go a little deeper and try to tease out what is at the heart of that." Don't be ridiculous.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #77 - December 15, 2010, 03:27 AM

    Monogamy is obviously not the only way to live our lives. But i think monogamy has more advantages. Through Monogamy the quality of parent/children time is much higher, more money goes into less mouths rather than less money to more mouths, family planning is much easier.... Monogamous societies are thus much more prosperous and have a higher quality in life.

    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #78 - December 15, 2010, 12:46 PM

    Quote
    Monogamous societies are thus much more prosperous and have a higher quality in life.

    Is that validated or just your opinion?

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #79 - December 15, 2010, 12:47 PM

    my opinion mate Smiley... i would put links to back my claim if it was a hardcore fact Smiley

    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #80 - December 15, 2010, 12:49 PM

    I thought the majority of all societies consist of monogamists. Are there any societies that contradict this?

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #81 - December 15, 2010, 12:59 PM

    Ok 4 pages on and I still don't see the point of this thread.
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #82 - December 18, 2010, 12:22 AM

    You "detect a lot of anger"? Who the fuck are you, Mystic Meg? Was it a crystal ball that told you that, or a disturbance in the force? And "... go a little deeper and try to tease out what is at the heart of that." Don't be ridiculous.


    Alrighty then! Pretty well set myself up for that, no doubt.  lipsrsealed My "detection" wasn't based on anything mystical that I'm aware of, just the way some of your responses were worded.  What I meant by the deeper part is that sometimes we have strong reactions as a matter of course, as most of what we think, feel, and believe have more to do with the way we are/were indoctrinated than with the way things necessarily need to be. It was just an encouragement to examine that, and I can understand if I came across as pompous and condescending. Not my intention, however. My apologies for any offense taken.

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #83 - December 18, 2010, 12:43 AM

    Monogamy is obviously not the only way to live our lives. But i think monogamy has more advantages. Through Monogamy the quality of parent/children time is much higher, more money goes into less mouths rather than less money to more mouths, family planning is much easier.... Monogamous societies are thus much more prosperous and have a higher quality in life.


    There are more ways to live non-monogamously in the modern world than just traditional polygamy. I think you raise good points about financial issues and family size. There are also issues of time distribution for spouses and children. So if you define "quality of life" based soley on those measures, then I'd tend to agree with you. However, our ability to live authentically is also part of our quality of life measure as well.

    What I think might work better for those not well-disposed to monogamy is to retain the monogamous single family structure, but to culturally allow for secondary partnerships as well which may not include children or sharing a household. Essentially, many people practice this already in monogamous societies, only it is usually kept secret and called "an affair". So the point is, should we as a culture continue to insist that this reality is a bad thing, or should we accept this as the nature of atleast some people and allow ourselves to be more open and accepting of these additional relationships.

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #84 - December 18, 2010, 12:47 AM

    I thought the majority of all societies consist of monogamists. Are there any societies that contradict this?


    Monogamous officially, yes, but not necessarily in practice. That is the point of the discussion. The reality doesn't tend to meet the expectations of the standard, and so what, if anything, should we do about that.

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #85 - December 18, 2010, 12:48 AM

    Ok 4 pages on and I still don't see the point of this thread.



    No point other than to discuss the why's and why nots.

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #86 - December 18, 2010, 12:07 PM

    I'm very interested in the ideas and practicality of polyamory.

    A girl I was seeing casually, a sincere believer in polyamory, gave me a book called The Ethical Slut for my birthday.  I still haven't read it but I find many of the arguments she slammed with me (we debated often) to have been quite convincing.

    I'm going to start reading the book and come back to this thread.

    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Should we be monogamous?
     Reply #87 - December 19, 2010, 06:59 PM

    I've heard of it. I'll be interested in hearing your thoughts after reading it.

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Previous page 1 2 3« Previous thread | Next thread »