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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Do you agree with Osama bin Laden's opposition to the French burqa ban?
  • Yes - 4 (12.9%)
  • No - 5 (16.1%)
  • Don't know - 0 (0%)
  • Fuck you (included by popular request) - 22 (71%)
  • Total Voters: 31

 Topic: Another question for ex-Muslims

 (Read 21995 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 3 4 56 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #120 - October 31, 2010, 03:45 PM

    Like I said, the ones you just quoted from me above:

    Quote
    So, then, let me ask you-- should the state be allowed to stop Christian families from teaching their children creationist ideas? Should the government prevent Orthodox Jewish families from teaching their children that women should wear wigs and garments that cover their arms and legs? Or that men should not shave and wear yarmulkes or hats? How far are you willing to go with this?


    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #121 - October 31, 2010, 03:55 PM

    I already answered that:

    Quote
    Now this Q-Man, is a good point which I see Lukatic is also pointing out. On the one extreme, extremists groups who indoctrinate young men into being suicide bombers is plainly something for the state and people to be concerned with. While at the same time indoctrinating a child about God for plainly having faith is entirely different. The DIFFERENCE is the impact that indoctrination has in the ACTIONS people take. Yes this is an application of consequentialism. Now I’m really interested, why does this not make sense to you two?


    But okay lets go in detail. Sheesh ...

    "should the state be allowed to stop Christian families from teaching their children creationist ideas?"

    - No because I don't see the effect as a burqa does on oppression on women and social division

    "Should the government prevent Orthodox Jewish families from teaching their children that women should wear wigs and garments that cover their arms and legs?"

    - No because I don't see the effect as a burqa does on oppression on women and social division

    "Or that men should not shave and wear yarmulkes or hats?"

    - No because I don't see the effect as a burqa does on oppression on women and social division

    Until I see the evidence the above examples are as bad as a burqa, then there would be a need to ban it, in my opinion. There I hope this has answered your question.
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #122 - October 31, 2010, 04:20 PM

     Roll Eyes

    Whatever, you are advocating state discrimination against a particular religious group. It would be one thing if it were just the burqua, but you are also advocating placing building restrictions on mosques (no minarets) that don't exist with churches, and denying the right of free association and free expression to Muslim students (banning Islamic student orgs). That's despicable.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #123 - October 31, 2010, 04:36 PM

    Ooh so you set up the questions to portray me as an Islam basher?  Roll Eyes

    Right how about:
    - I would like to see a ban on creationist ideas being taught at schools as fact
    - I would like to see a ban the practice of Chinese foot binding
    - I would like to see a ban forced child marriages that happen all over India

    So, will you answer my question, after being so courteous to you?

    Quote
    The DIFFERENCE is the impact that indoctrination has in the ACTIONS people take. Yes this is an application of consequentialism. Now I’m really interested, why does this not make sense to you two?


    EDIT: And btw, just because there are huge issues with Islam, for you to deduce that simply I'm a racist or bigot  because I legitimately challenging Islam is in part a very ill mannered judgment of yours.
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #124 - October 31, 2010, 04:54 PM

    Ooh so you set up the questions to portray me as an Islam basher?  Roll Eyes


    No need for me to portray you as that-- it's quite obvious.

    Quote
    Right how about:
    - I would like to see a ban on creationist ideas being taught at schools as fact


    Publicly-funded schools?

    Quote
    - I would like to see a ban the practice of Chinese foot binding


    Because mutilation and an article of clothing are the same thing, right.

    Quote
    - I would like to see a ban forced child marriages that happen all over India


    Forced being the key word here. There are already laws in the West to prevent women from being forced to wear the burqua.

    Quote
    EDIT: And btw, just because there are huge issues with Islam, for you to deduce that simply I'm a racist or bigot  because I legitimately challenging Islam is in part a very ill mannered judgment of yours.


    Please find where I said either such thing about you. I said you want to have the state discriminate against Muslims-- this is not an opinion, it's a fact. Banning minarets, burquas, and Islamic student orgs is discrimination against Muslims, period. If you don't like having that pointed out, then probably not wise to mention it in the first place.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #125 - October 31, 2010, 05:00 PM

    Replace burqa with slave chains or straight-jackets or whatever disturbing thing you may find, to put it in perspective.


    Fixed  Afro

    But ishina, the problem is that a state which has the power to ban something we disapprove of also has the power to ban something we approve of.


    I think we will always be fundamentally opposed to each other on this issue while it remains in this phase. You see it as imposing an undesirable restriction, giving a measure of power to an authorative body that ought not have it, and I see it as removing an undesirable restriction that was already imposed, and now the responsibility is back with us and we must embrace and explore human interaction on a more pure and equal level, tackling the problems if and when they arise. The burka isn’t just an article of clothing, it’s greater than the sum of its parts. It makes my blood boil when another women disappears under one. Another woman lost. What the burka actually represents, the symbolic nature of the burka that underlines this issue is one that cannot be stressed enough.

    The debate on the burka is a healthy one. I think at the very least I am glad that this ban happened, because its forced the debate into new territory, forced people to play their hand. What I find fascinating about it is a good portion of people invested in it now, didn’t really give a shit about it until it was pushed into the public sphere in this kind of manner. And now there are masses of moral scavengers crawling out of the woodwork, building a bandwagon and rolling it out, seizing an opportunity to flex their insufferable moral superiority and posture a bit, pretend like they had a care to begin with. They suddenly have a lot to say about it whereas they might not have had before. Its forced people to think about it, if nothing else, rather than just paying lip service to it or pretending it didn’t actually matter to real women in this world. Its funny, as soon as it arrives on their doorstep or might affect them, even if just this imaginary and hyperbolic sense of losing rights they are not even in danger of losing anyway, they suddenly care.

    And by the way, the burka isn’t even an Islamic religious requirement anyway, so this in no wise threatens anybodies freedom of religion. The only thing it threatens is man’s stranglehold on women, in a problematic demographic that struggles to integrate at the best of times and sometimes even refuses to when left on its own, if we‘re being honest. The idea that it might make women even worse prisoners of men is a separate issue really, an issue in itself. Lets put the blame for that where it belongs though, if it happens. It isn’t a direct symptom of the ban, it’s a symptom of the sickening and repulsive school of thought that thinks things like the burka are a good idea in the first place. It is the duty of the powers that be to address and work towards confronting this problem if it arises, and that’s where the pressure on them should be.

    I’m happy that a small portion of the world has shed its skin, and it might hurt at first and have some growing pains, but I think over time it will be a good thing, if not directly for this generation, for future ones - European Muslims who will be born into a part of the world where the burka isn’t even an option and they’ll never likely be exposed to it, and it will maybe hopefully even be largely forgotten about with time, cast away, laid to rest, left to rot in the graveyard of failed human endeavours, nothing more than a curious museum piece to look at from a distance, like slave manacles or iron maidens.

    Also, I don’t have the energy to pretend to sympathise with few silly religious bimbos and day-tripper Muslim chicks who want to make a fashion statement of this symbol of male oppression. I don’t personally give much of a fuck about their appeal to rights. They are lucky they have the luxury to practice Islam as part of an ‘alternative lifestyle choice’, and that it isn’t an orthodox version they have no choice but to surrender body, mind and soul to. If they absolutely must wear a burka, I can think of a few places where the burka is not only expected, but imposed on all women. Maybe they would be better suited there if this government isn’t fulfilling their needs as an individual. God forbid they ever learn how to be a special snowflake without wearing a full body tent, making a fashion accessory of the hideous tool of segregation and abuse.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #126 - October 31, 2010, 07:32 PM

    Quote
    You should post more often. 



    Actually I generally dislike getting involved in political debates - must be the scientist in me  Smiley - and there are people on here who are much more knowledgable when it comes to politics/law etc. than me

    The only reason I decided to comment on this thread initially was because of the content of your long reply to blackdog - as I said earlier that really made me  015 . Regarding the burqa issue I think we disagree both on what the practical consequences would be and on whether it's morally acceptable to impose such a ban and don't think it's worth discussing further - although I do understand why people would be pushing for such a ban - reading Ishina's posts makes me understand this better, particularly regarding the point about the effect on future generations.

    However I have to say I don't like your style of politics HO, and the patronising parts of your posts are nothing compared to the ironic remarks you make about the politics of others. I find it dificult to understand, and find it somewhat unsettling, how a seemingly nice guy can hold general political views that to me seem horrid. But good luck with all that neocon stuff  Afro

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #127 - October 31, 2010, 09:06 PM


    Actually I generally dislike getting involved in political debates - must be the scientist in me  Smiley - and there are people on here who are much more knowledgable when it comes to politics/law etc. than me

    The only reason I decided to comment on this thread initially was because of the content of your long reply to blackdog - as I said earlier that really made me  015 . Regarding the burqa issue I think we disagree both on what the practical consequences would be and on whether it's morally acceptable to impose such a ban and don't think it's worth discussing further - although I do understand why people would be pushing for such a ban - reading Ishina's posts makes me understand this better, particularly regarding the point about the effect on future generations.

    However I have to say I don't like your style of politics HO, and the patronising parts of your posts are nothing compared to the ironic remarks you make about the politics of others. I find it dificult to understand, and find it somewhat unsettling, how a seemingly nice guy can hold general political views that to me seem horrid. But good luck with all that neocon stuff  Afro


    Thanks for the rebuke, good to know how I come across for self-awareness reasons. I wish you best with your learning, because with all due respect I feel you have a long way to go, especailly if you still believe in Islam (completely judged by the "Muslim" label you have).
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #128 - October 31, 2010, 09:07 PM

    The debate on the burka is a healthy one. I think at the very least I am glad that this ban happened, because its forced the debate into new territory, forced people to play their hand. What I find fascinating about it is a good portion of people invested in it now, didn’t really give a shit about it until it was pushed into the public sphere in this kind of manner. And now there are masses of moral scavengers crawling out of the woodwork, building a bandwagon and rolling it out, seizing an opportunity to flex their insufferable moral superiority and posture a bit, pretend like they had a care to begin with. They suddenly have a lot to say about it whereas they might not have had before. Its forced people to think about it, if nothing else, rather than just paying lip service to it or pretending it didn’t actually matter to real women in this world. Its funny, as soon as it arrives on their doorstep or might affect them, even if just this imaginary and hyperbolic sense of losing rights they are not even in danger of losing anyway, they suddenly care.


    Quality writing!  Afro
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #129 - October 31, 2010, 09:19 PM

    Please find where I said either such thing about you. I said you want to have the state discriminate against Muslims-- this is not an opinion, it's a fact. Banning minarets, burquas, and Islamic student orgs is discrimination against Muslims, period. If you don't like having that pointed out, then probably not wise to mention it in the first place.


    define: discrimination - unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice

    You really don't get it and I feel sorry you can't see how it is not discrimination, even though it may appear as that from a very shallow perceptive. I've had enough, and it's good to learn the limits of where such discussions go. Thanks for sharing your ideas somewhat, in spite of all the horrible, utterly foul language you use against me.

    Oh, and just so you know, Maryam Namazie spokesperson of CEMB would like to see the Burka and Sharia law both banned. FYI, she's not discriminating against Muslims with unfair treatment or prejudice.
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #130 - October 31, 2010, 09:21 PM

    Pants, I must come across so cocky and rude. It's something for me to work on when discussing such things.  oops
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #131 - October 31, 2010, 09:25 PM

    Everybody should be free to wear what they want - this is the fairest possible solution. This means that those that want to wear the burka are free to do so and also that those that are forced into wearing the burka should be helped out of that situation.

    You cannot ban an entire subset of attire just because some are forced into it, you help those that are forced but you don't steal the freedoms of those that aren't forced and are just making a perfectly normal choice.
    This is akin to banning lighters because in certain cases fire can be dangerous.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #132 - October 31, 2010, 09:27 PM

    Quality writing!  Afro


    Actually, with due respect to Ishina, who is one of our newer members, this is an old topic discussed plently of times in the past. This thread was from quite some months ago:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=9079.0

    Indeed most of us were Muslims/practicing Muslims in the past - so it's natural that we would have some stronger views on the topic. I'm sure everyone posting in this thread is sincere about what they write.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #133 - October 31, 2010, 09:31 PM

    Everybody should be free to wear what they want - this is the fairest possible solution. This means that those that want to wear the burka are free to do so and also that those that are forced into wearing the burka should be helped out of that situation.

    You cannot ban an entire subset of attire just because some are forced into it, you help those that are forced but you don't steal the freedoms of those that aren't forced and are just making a perfectly normal choice.
    This is akin to banning lighters because in certain cases fire can be dangerous.



    POTM right there. You philosophical son-of-a-gun you  grin12

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #134 - October 31, 2010, 09:37 PM

    define: discrimination - unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice

    You really don't get it and I feel sorry you can't see how it is not discrimination, even though it may appear as that from a very shallow perceptive...

    ...Oh, and just so you know, Maryam Namazie spokesperson of CEMB would like to see the Burka and Sharia law both banned. FYI, she's not discriminating against Muslims with unfair treatment or prejudice.


    Sharia law was not a subject of our debate. If you want to know my position on sharia law, the latest edition of The Economist articulates a view close to mine. Look it up-- they're pro-capitalist and Eurocentric, you should like that publication.

    EDIT: Not the latest publication, the Oct 16th publication-- http://www.economist.com/printedition/index.cfm?d=20101016

    But it's more than just your position on the burqua, HO, that makes me say you favor state discrimination against Muslims. You also favor building restrictions on Muslims that other religions are not subject to (banning minarets), and denial of Muslims' right of free expression and free association (banning Islamic student orgs). This is the third time I've mentioned those two things, and you have yet to respond to them, likely because you know there is no possible way for you to justify them-- it's religious discrimination pure and simple, and I can assure you would not get support from Maryam Namazie or CEMB on either of those issues.

    If it were just your position on the burqua that concerned me I probably wouldn't be taking the firm position that you favor state discrimination against Muslims, but the totality of your opinions make it pretty damn crystal clear that you do.

    Quote
    I've had enough, and it's good to learn the limits of where such discussions go. Thanks for sharing your ideas somewhat, in spite of all the horrible, utterly foul language you use against me.


     eusa_boohoo

    Sorry I offended a right-wing reactionary authoritarian statist and self-proclaimed "neocon". My heart bleeds. I can't wait until your type are swept into history's dustpan.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #135 - November 01, 2010, 01:14 PM

    Now this Q-Man, is a good point which I see Lukatic is also pointing out. On the one extreme, extremists groups who indoctrinate young men into being suicide bombers is plainly something for the state and people to be concerned with. While at the same time indoctrinating a child about God for plainly having faith is entirely different. The DIFFERENCE is the impact that indoctrination has in the ACTIONS people take. Yes this is an application of consequentialism. Now I’m really interested, why does this not make sense to you two?


    Huh? I don't think I fully understand what you're trying to say there, but I'll try to answer as how I see it. Alright, let me see. Of course any indoctrinations can have the impact in the actions people take?  Huh? Any indoctrinations can lead to both positive or negative impacts. The impact of burqa indoctrination has in the personal decisions they take can often be quite self-destructive, I agree, and it's very sad to see what Islam's oppression on women do to their lives. But I don't get it, what is the impact of someone wearing a burqa has on you and me? The impact of her personal life choices as an indoctrinated burqa wearer has on you and me? It's not an alarming concern for the state then. The state's concern should be on how to protect the rights of all its people from being taken away from them. So in the case of people being forced to wear the burqa, the state's duty is to provide them all the support and tools they need to fight their oppressors.

    Social division? I have social phobia and I'm very reclusive. I'd like to be left alone most of the time. When I'm in public places, I try to avoid having to interact with people as much as I can. Do you want to ban me in public places too? That would make my social phobia worse, you know?  Cry

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #136 - November 01, 2010, 01:22 PM


    I also think its everyones responsibility to support in civil society those who advocate against the facial veiling of women, to speak truthfully about its misogynistic horror, and hold in our minds two thoughts - that as much as there might be some women who 'choose' to wear a shroud that reduces them to a genital stump of black, there are deep coercive pressures that play out in areas and societies where the burqa is seen regularly, and that many Muslim women do feel intimidated and pressured into accepting the veil in myriad, small and large ways that either appear off the radar, or are not registered or admitted to at all.



    +1  Afro

    Gentle persuasion is stronger than force.

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #137 - November 01, 2010, 01:36 PM

    Quote
    Gentle persuasion is stronger than force.


    Well, I do support institutions, offices, business, public services banning people with covered faces at their discretion, and view that as empowerment. The government and civil society should support that too. Thats not gentle, that is effectively banning in certain spaces in society. And I don't think civil society's advocacy against the burqa and niqab should be gentle, I think it should be relentless and overwhelming. Civil society shouldn't feel inhibited about this issue. I judt don't see the practicality of the government banning the wearing of the veil per se.

    The only thing I'd like to see government invoking its power to do regarding burqa / niqab is to facilitate the prosecution of the parents of children under the age of 16 who make their daughters dress like this. Its child abuse pure and simple. And I'd have arrested anyone involved with Islamic institutions that advocate children wearing burqa / niqab, and if they refuse to comply, shut them down if nesseccary.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #138 - November 01, 2010, 01:43 PM



    So the point is, I don't think our collective civil and societal and cultural response to burqa / niqab should be in any way gentle. Just because I don't think it should be banned legislatively, doesn't mean I think it is worthy only of mild, private dissaproval.

    (and it is of a completely different order to hijabs and other religious symbols and attire its important to make that point not just because this is not grounded in an impulse to marginalise 'religious symbolism' but because the very nature and matter of the burqa and niqab makes it different from them)



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #139 - November 01, 2010, 01:45 PM

    Replace burqa with slave chains or straight-jackets or whatever disturbing thing you may find, to put it in perspective.

    Fixed


    As long as they don't chain or strap ME by force, they have the right to remain chained and strapped. If they are no longer wanting to be chained or strapped, the law is on their side to break free.



    And by the way, the burka isn't even an Islamic religious requirement anyway, so this in no wise threatens anybodies freedom of religion.



    Their reason for wearing it is irrelevant anyway. My stance on this issue has nothing to do with respecting any religion, but about respecting people's right to dress as they wish, as long as it does not infringe on me.

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #140 - November 01, 2010, 01:58 PM

    More join our evil libertarianism fold every day.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #141 - November 01, 2010, 02:10 PM

    And I don't think civil society's advocacy against the burqa and niqab should be gentle, I think it should be relentless and overwhelming. Civil society shouldn't feel inhibited about this issue. I judt don't see the practicality of the government banning the wearing of the veil per se.



    So the point is, I don't think our collective civil and societal and cultural response to burqa / niqab should be in any way gentle. Just because I don't think it should be banned legislatively, doesn't mean I think it is worthy only of mild, private dissaproval.



    Yes, my bad. Not gentle. I completely agree with the things I quoted above. But I don't agree with the state-imposed ban.

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #142 - November 01, 2010, 02:30 PM

    Gentle persuasion is stronger than force. It's just more poetic that way!  Tongue

    But just to be clear, I support only those advocates against veiling who aggressively expose the evil and oppressive nature of burqa to public and educate the public about it, not by force. And of course, if you're uneasy with people wearing a burqa, you have a choice to ignore them. Simples!

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #143 - November 01, 2010, 02:43 PM

    I support the see-through burqa.

    Surely France won't allow the see-through burqa?
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #144 - November 01, 2010, 02:46 PM

    And of course, if you're uneasy with people wearing a burqa, you have a choice to ignore them. Simples!


    You can ignore them if you walk past them in the street. But if a woman working as a teacher starts wearing a burqa, as happened in a tribunal case in Dewsbury, then the school and her colleagues have the right to exclude her from that employment and from those premises. This can be applied to any number of different contexts.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #145 - November 01, 2010, 08:35 PM

    You know what? I've thought about this some more, and I think I want to stand behind my "Gentle persuasion is stronger than force". If you care so much about women's liberty, what's better way to do it than by talking to those niqabis nicely, ask them how they are doing, give them a job, etc. Why? To liberate them from their husband/oppressive family! Show them the other side. People need to stop assuming that all niqabis are dumb! Give them the friendship, respect, the connections in society to succeed, let them be what they want. Communicate with them as equal human beings. And then, let them choose, rather than assuming that as women, they are too dumb to make a choice because by doing that, you're just making the same decision that Islam already made - that women are too stupid to make decisions on their own!
     

    You can ignore them if you walk past them in the street. But if a woman working as a teacher starts wearing a burqa, as happened in a tribunal case in Dewsbury, then the school and her colleagues have the right to exclude her from that employment and from those premises. This can be applied to any number of different contexts.


    Obviously wearing a burqa is not allowed in certain situations, but there is a huge difference between a specific company or school having its own local policy and a national legal ban. Individual organisations have the right to decide the appropriate attire based on the context of the job. Endless things can cause you reduced employment opportunities. Men with long hair, men wearing dresses, tattoos, etc. etc. and that includes burqa as well.

    If one school doesn't want to hire her if she wears a burqa, she can go look for other opportunities somewhere else. That's what freedom is about - providing different opportunities for different people.

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #146 - November 01, 2010, 08:42 PM

    More join our evil libertarianism fold every day.


    Lol, I don't like labels. But I'm definitely anti-fascism.

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #147 - November 01, 2010, 08:47 PM

    You know what? I've thought about this some more, and I think I want to stand behind my "Gentle persuasion is stronger than force". If you care so much about women's liberty, what's better way to do it than by talking to those niqabis nicely, ask them how they are doing, give them a job, etc. Why? To liberate them from their husband/oppressive family! Show them the other side. People need to stop assuming that all niqabis are dumb! Give them the friendship, respect, the connections in society to succeed, let them be what they want. Communicate with them as equal human beings. And then, let them choose, rather than assuming that as women, they are too dumb to make a choice because by doing that, you're just making the same decision that Islam already made - that women are too stupid to make decisions on their own!
     

    Obviously wearing a burqa is not allowed in certain situations, but there is a huge difference between a specific company or school having its own local policy and a national legal ban. Individual organisations have the right to decide the appropriate attire based on the context of the job. Endless things can cause you reduced employment opportunities. Men with long hair, men wearing dresses, tattoos, etc. etc. and that includes burqa as well.

    If one school doesn't want to hire her if she wears a burqa, she can go look for other opportunities somewhere else. That's what freedom is about - providing different opportunities for different people.


    Thanks Lukatic - that was a great post to read  Smiley

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #148 - November 01, 2010, 08:57 PM

    Lol, I don't like labels. But I'm definitely anti-fascism.


    Tough shit, we libertarians have labeled you a libertarian. You must now join our cult. No choice.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Another question for ex-Muslims
     Reply #149 - November 01, 2010, 08:59 PM

    Thanks Lukatic - that was a great post to read  Smiley


    Thanks, glad to hear that!  Smiley

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
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