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 Topic: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed

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  • CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     OP - October 06, 2010, 10:27 AM



    I just cleaned up all the chat from this thread - please remember to post the top class posts you think should be kept in one thread for reference and to make sure they aren't missed!



    +++++


    I just want to start a thread in which we collate the best individual posts from the forum, just in case anyone misses them, or for general future reference. If you think anything is outstanding, keep them here for future reference and so they don't get lost or missed. Not just from live conversations - if there is stuff that you think needs posting from past threads and discussions, put them here. Basically, the masterpieces.

    I'm going to start it off with this one, from today:


    +++++



    I don’t think it was ever in doubt, in this thread at least. Most of us here know Muslims personally, were one once upon a time. I still have close friends who consider themselves Muslim. Fair enough, they’d be the first to admit they suck at being Muslim, and I’d agree with them, but they still label themselves ‘Muslim’ I’m not attacking those people when I attack Islam. If they want to throw themselves in front of the bus, and get offended for no reason, that’s their business. I’ll attack them too if they really want me to, if I must. It’s my duty as a human being to openly oppose many fundamental tenets of Islam. They are welcome to join me, as Muslims. I respect honesty and integrity above most things. I’d respect theirs equally.

    Despite Tabun saying that we just ‘don’t get it’, we were never actually disagreeing anyway as far as I can tell. We were speaking cross purposes. The only contention raised was the fact that the biggest moderate voices in the public arena are not being honest about Islam yet claim to represent it. if they are indeed moderate Muslims, then by the very definition of the term, they are cutting out parts of Islam for one reason or another. I just wish they’d either admit and expose the parts of Islam they don’t follow and explain their honest reasons why they think these particular parts are bad, while they have the stage, without needing to be pressed about it. Either that, or just stay out of the global debate altogether. They already have the right to practice their religion. They are already protected under the law. They have the luxury of a new-age pick’n’mix version of Islam, they are welcome to their superstitions and stupid beliefs, and have the right to build tax-free Mosques and send their kids to Islamic schools. They should just shut the fuck up and get on with it.

    Bringing a certain facet of Islam into question has very little to do with people who call themselves Muslim and at the same time don’t bother with those specific parts of Islam. That’s an issue they’ll have to take up with Allah on the Last day. It’s waste of time to worry about hurting the feelings of these people. It dilutes the issue. It ends up a stalemate. We never leave square one and Islam remains untouchable because of the fluffy bunny day-tripper so-called Muslims that everybody rushes to defend. Honestly, say you’re a moderate progressive Muslim, and you’re an instant tragic hero of the story.  What have they actually done though? If everyone used the same amount of calories they spend bickering over the rights to build a fucking stack of bricks in NY and instead spent them on tearing down the obstacles Muslim females face if they want to become actual women and humans, it would be fantastic. People are defending the wrong bloody Muslims. Their priorities are all wrong.

    I think the biggest problem right now for anyone criticising religion in any kind of manner is getting past the smokescreen of day-tripper followers. People have the luxury in this day and age to only dip their toes into particular faiths as part of an ‘alternative lifestyle choice’, without jumping in with both feet. It makes it much harder to attack the fundamental issues of the dogma overall, and the very real and present problems it creates. You’re attacking the fundies, and you're attacking the barbarism in the scripture being kept alive, and you’re also attacking someone’s sweet old neighbour or grandma by default, even though you were not. Why does religion get a free pass? Why are we so willing to criticise members of other ideologies, political parties, voters who vote a certain way, people who show allegiance with certain ways of life or constitutions we don’t like much, but religion still remains a respected institution that gets special treatment?

    A Muslim beats his disobedient wife, as Allah prescribed, as per what he was directed to do according to divine revelations of the Noble Quran. A daughter is brutally mutilated or killed by a family who honour Islam beyond mere lip service. Countries run under Islamic law stone rape victims to death, routinely hang gays, give 100 lashes to young lovers. There are millions of child brides in Islamic nations. Millions. Yet there is no end of people running to the defence of Islam when the faith is brought into question all because someone ‘feelings’ might get hurt.

    A tea bagger spells a fucking sign wrong and they get called all the cunts under the sun. They shouldn’t be allowed to vote, allowed to breed, allowed to pollute the gene pool. People have a good laugh at tea baggers, nobody has a problem generalising then. Why?

    If religion was just a person to person deeply held personal belief about life or the world, or hopes and dreams for their spiritual self, or personal preference or taste, and was unobtrusive and harmless to everyone else, it wouldn't be worthy of so much open criticism. But it's not just that is it? It's a collective, often hysterical and irrational mass belief and school of thought that has so much stranglehold on the world that it affects millions of lives every day whether they agree with it or not, whether they want it to or not. It affects things from who gets to govern the most powerful secular (apparently) nation on earth, to if homosexuals deserve to live or die on the other side of the planet.

    When the religions of the world offer themselves up as a complete system of life - law, policy, social, economical, educational, philosophical, even military, and with pretty much the sole aim of converting and controlling the masses - we can criticise them as thoroughly, shamelessly and ruthlessly as we can any constitution or political ideology, or any collection of ideas and principles. As soon as we can’t, we can no longer consider ourselves a democracy.





    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #1 - October 06, 2010, 10:45 AM


    Might be good to use the quote function so people can link back to the actual thread and discussion if they wish to.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #2 - October 06, 2010, 11:32 AM

    You have taught me much.  I now know the one (and only) true miracle of the Koran.  And that miracle is this:  That over a billion human beings on this planet actually believe that incredibly toxic morass of brain blistering bullshit barfed up by an epileptic desert bandit.


    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #3 - October 10, 2010, 03:19 AM

    From the thread entitled: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe

    I always wondered how much 'intelligent' design it would take to throw primal matter into the void and let it become what it will, colliding violently, randomly, along on whatever momentum it manages to attain, and temporarily forming patterns by chance.

    do you think the beauty and majesty of the cosmos can be reduced to the locomotive collisions of primal, inert matter? perhaps even, do you think that the human mind can be reduced to being the affect of such random collisions?

    What do I think? I think we are hurling through space and time, clinging onto this ball of rock, fumbling around in the swarm, pondering our theories and philosophies, trying to find some poetic supposition for chemical imbalances, trying to explain, pursue, or repress innate biologically vectored behaviour, led by the desire for interaction so we can impress our wants and needs upon others, or deny them theirs. We are the sum of our parts, the alchemy of wisdoms and experience, the feelings and gentle urges that form our conscience.

    I think humans are a beautiful creature, unique in that they will romanticise hot chemical fever in the blood and call it love, and the stirring in our loins we will call lusts, and all our animal appetites shall be desires, and we will always and forever apply our alphabets of feeling and emotion to the unimaginable, wonderfully unfathomable, vast and unknowable cosmos.

    I think we should take all the credit for making this primal and wild world beautiful, because we invented beautiful, we invented the word for it, and we describe it to each other in beautiful ways, and differ over it, and think it to ourselves, and we are it. We are beauty.


    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #4 - October 10, 2010, 03:36 AM

    From the thread entitled:  New Planet: Another Earth discovered by scientists?

    We, as an advanced civilisation, have only existed for a minuscule period of time in the grand time-scale of the earth's life.

      Just what do you mean by advanced? The trousered ape hasn't advanced one microscopic atom since he climbed down from the hills of the African Savannah. Say that in the company of a congregation of learned rats and they will break out in epileptic fits of laughter. The entire history of man is chiefly the record of armed bands of men poking each other with sharp objects and mounting each other's livestock after which the victors drink Bacardi Breezer and Brandy and tell themselves how glorious and sweet it was.

    True enough, primitive man plundered, tortured, and made raids on his neighbour with nary a thought in a state of abject barbarism. We have improved. By dropping daisy-cutters on each other. As of this writing, Precedent Obomber is unleashing the terrors of the earth on the towelheads of Afghanistan to universal applause, exposing us for the knuckle-dragging neanderthals that we still are for our colossal failure to abolish the institution of war after so long a time. Time was when savages butchered each other with primitive implements. Modern man pursues the same end with fighter jets that strip the whole enterprise of its age old fun and personal touch. Why the elaborate war machine?  Better the extinction game is played with a bow and arrow. It is more leisurely, more democratic and lets all God's chillun participate.

    From his slow arduous climb out of the primordial soup man has made zero moral progress. Not one iota. Don’t misunderstand. I believe that men should kill each other en masse with great abundance and gusto. I recommend it. But let him desist from extolling himself above the brute beast. It is a libel against the animal kingdom. When was the last time a bison was spotted holding up a bank? A camel? Show me the pictures, or stop putting others down. Progress? Bosh!


    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #5 - October 12, 2010, 08:49 AM


    What made you leave Islam?

    Ultimately, I was faced with a choice of being a good person or being a good Muslim. A human being cannot be both in my eyes. These two things are at opposite ends of the scale for me. To be an obedient, observant Muslim, you must sacrifice your humanity. You must surrender to a divine will, swear honest fealty to it, without doubt, without questioning. To be a good person you must not only renounce many of the central tenets of Islam, but you must also openly oppose them, wherever they manifest in the world. Then, and only then, can you claim to be a human with me. Or, you can compromise - live some kind of half-life, a contradictory creature, torn between faith and your own conscience, drifting this way and that amid your own confused and unbalanced inner equilibrium - fooling yourself that you are free, and valued, and precious to non-existent higher power. You can pretend that you love an unlovable god, pretend that such a hateful god could ever love you, try to salvage some validation and purpose, some salvation from a book that gives you a little and then takes a lot more, and all the time harbouring a self-loathing, a deep rooted knowledge that you are a slave to that same higher power, with your mind shackled and your heart held back from true human interaction, under his ever-present gaze and scrutiny. That’s no life for me. That isn’t living.

    I reject Islam wholeheartedly. I made my choice. I chose to try and be a good person instead of trying to be a good Muslim. The main symptom of doing so was feeling the weight lift off as each and every facet of Islam fell away from me. I have learned I no longer have to surrender my body, mind and soul to the god of the Prophet’s desires, dreams and delusions, and I have realised that I wont be punished for imaginary crimes in an imaginary afterlife if I choose not to surrender. The more I learned about the Prophet, the more I found him repulsive, even for a man of his time. The more I pulled away from that hideous Abrahamic concept of a supreme ‘one-god’, the more alive and vital I was in this gorgeous universe. I was free to be me, the person inside, perfect with all my flaws, comfortable in my own skin, no longer a mind-slave to the dark age ideologies imagined up by sadistic and insane monsters of history, no longer led along by the nose like cattle, no longer living according to the dogma spelled out by long-dead fools whose ideas belong in the graveyard of failed human endeavours, throwbacks to the infancy of our species. The umbilical cord that holds back the ascendancy and mastery of our own spirits and minds must be cut. We’ve crawled along on our belly for too long under religion. We should be walking on our own by now, running by now. We could even be flying by now.

    There are better role models in this beautiful world than the so-called Prophet. There are better contributions to the world than the cancerous, poisoned chalice known as the Quran. There are better wisdoms out there to find, to add to your own spiritual alchemy, better philosophies, better revelations, better discoveries, better poetic and artistic expression, better hopes and dreams to be had, better love and passions, a much richer, fuller existence - all eclipsed while you are under the black cloud of Islam. I almost hate Islam for the life it denied me for so long, never knowing my potential as a member of the human race. I know that potential now. I can taste it, feel it, appreciate it like never before. I penetrated that black cloud like the chick breaking out of the egg. It was like opening my eyes for the first time to a whole new alphabet of feeling and emotion. Like seeing in colour after a lifetime of black and white.

    I’ll never go back. Never. I would be a fool to. I’ve shed my skin already. My journey has only just begun, my journey of life, with new blood running through me, new verve, new growth, new days, and new hope for the first time - true, tangible hope and possibilities. And with Islam in my rear-view mirror, I have no regrets. This journey of life I am forever grateful for, and I can’t begin to describe how excited I am. I can only show those close to me, making the journey with me. And to those who accept me for who I am, and what I am, I will share myself, naked, unashamed, with arms wide open.

  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #6 - October 15, 2010, 11:26 AM

    Man is a creature so constructed that he is bound to encounter the blues. In a former life when I wore a flowing white robe complimented by a red and white checkered kaffiyeh topped off with a miswaak dangling from my lips, when I used to scrape my head furiously on the prayer mat and stick my firm buttocks majestically to the sky I held that chanting the Quran whilst rocking back and forth like a schizophrenic in a mental asylum kept the demons away. In this at least the towelheads are of course correct. Uncommonly stupid people suffer less from depression because existential angst stems from an overactive cerebral cortex whose rapid operations give off brilliant sparks like fireworks that soar upwards into the night sky to kiss the stars, from the lonely awareness that man is a microscopic atom in a cosmos boundlessly vast in which he must wander for but a duration and then, wearied and fatigued, to finally perish. Depression is the mark of the superior creature. When did you last spot a bison with a long face?

    The mentally defective man with an IQ south of ten never engages his higher cerebral faculties. If one maintains that up where the Invisible Choir sings and the devils frolic sits their very own personal Cosmic Bodyguard, what does he have to fear? Around the clock bodyguards are an expensive luxury in my neck of the woods. I envy them. The world as revealed by modern science, a vast cold empty wasteland without rhyme or reason, throws a man into life with his hands bound and bids him to swim. He does well if he keeps his head above water. If facile optimism is all one seeks in life I should inject a heavy dose of morphine to swim in a tide of chemically induced bliss and gobble up a bucketful of prescription drugs to rewire my synaptic circuitry till I drown in permanent stupefaction. Call it emotional botox. To such a cosmic torpor, but even more bedrugged and benumbed, is the state to which Islam beckons. Forever. Is this what the trousered ape seeks? To my mind the essence of living, breathing, feeling, dreaming, loving, hurting, screwing and typing anonymous messages to complete strangers online is to fully enter into the complete spectrum of human emotions.

    I have tasted the bitter wine of depression. I have drunk its cup of sorrow. Could I have the power to banish them would I do so? Don't be a silly goose. We are all of us nothing but the sum total of our remembered thoughts. Memory is a beautiful word. It is the vital link to a past irrevocably dead. Out of the grave of sorrow emerge one by one the ghosts of a former life come to speak. There in the imagination's eye stands a kindred spirit long forsaken but never forgotten, a friend, a lover, a voice from the past. The pulse quickens, the heart races with the enthusiasm of a boy chasing a skirt and, gripped by the pensive mood, our feelings gallop onwards and upwards into the farther reaches of the soul, from there to release torrents and torrents of emotions so moving it makes the gods weep bucketfuls of tears to wash away our sin. Men sorrow because they love. The point is to remember that everything is transient, that every pang of emotion be it ever so deep shall fade into a dim memory in the onward march of time.

    In due course the lugubrious considerations which now weigh so heavily on one's mind, the events which lay so great a claim on one's attention will come to airy nothing. The soul feels it's oppressive weight pressing down on it momentarily, and feeling it shall weep, or wonder, or furrow one's brow, yet before an hour is lapsed, before your mind has had time enough to register it shall be consigned to the scrapheap of history, there to perish in neglected obscurity. It doesn't matter. Nothing much matters. No intensity of thought, no raging desire, no blood and tear soaked memory of the entanglements of youth. Assimilate that elementary fact of life and when you have grasped that a good deal of men's preoccupations are fundamentally meaningless, life shall be immeasurably happier. It is not a facile bliss however. It is a new rebirth sprung from the union of the deepest springs of sorrow and the greatest depths of joy, a baptism in the winding river of human experience, it is the heart made whole.
     
    Merchants of sentimentaility say life is a tragedy. Fiddlesticks! Properly understood, life is a comedy of the first rank. It is a game played by the high gods in a room thick with clouds of tobacco smoke, whiskey, and a roar of transcendental mirth. A game in which man is but the plaything of Immortals. Up where the angels sing and the godless breakdance with the Devil, the human drama makes for gripping entertainment, a cosmic reality television show in which tragedy and conflict are a high saleable commodity. Before the Grim Reaper comes aknocking, let the trousered ape dream, guzzle and screw with complete abandon. And don't forget to laugh my sweet. It is our only salvation. Great is the fire of depression, and bright its cathartic power like a candle in the dark. Kindle the candle then and till sunrise let it burn.


    001_wub

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #7 - November 01, 2010, 10:18 PM

    So the JW's prosletyse regularly in my locality. Last time they came round was in the summer, and it was two elderly Jamaican grandmas who I very politely and very sweetly dissuaded from pursuing my conversion.

    Yesterday was the return leg, and this time it was a couple of white ladies in their mid forties. The one who did most of the talking looked a bit worn out by life, but the other lady was a foxy blonde MILF, dressed straight out of a Marks and Spencers Christmas advertisment with Twiggy, and I spent about 20 minutes parlaying with them for the fun of it.

    It was obvious they had been drilled well, asking me questions about myself in a way that was supposed to plant a seed of doubt in my mind, to establish my loneliness or vulnerability. When I explained that I was an atheist (I'm probably more of an agnostic but the foxy MILF inspired me to be firm in my opposition to her precepts so that she could try harder to convert me) the worn out looking one gave it all the, "Awwww, why is that? Did something happen in your life to cause you a loss of faith?"

    I looked at the MILF Jehovah Witness and cracked up laughing and said, "She's good at this, isn't she, she's been trained well", and she started giggling too. I think she was a recent convert and was probably brought along to watch and learn. She was very passive in the conversation, but laughed at all my jokes, which is always a sign of intelligence and integrity.

    Anyway so I started asking them about their personal lives, what was it in their lives that made them become a JW, did they experience depression, ennui, loss of self worth, then I looked at MILF JW and asked, did your husband leave you?

    It was all done in a good spirit and they were laughing as I kept a step ahead of them and turned all their efforts back on them. All the time I was flirting with MILF Jehovas Witness. I told them that I was very tenacious and if they were really interested in talking I would be happy to chat for as long as they wished but I would warn them they wouldn't succeed in their evangelism but would in fact be at risk of being turned by me because I have a 100% success rate of planting seeds of doubt in the minds of those who I focus on.

    At this point I was already anticipating future erotic fantasies about the foxy Witness MILF who tries to convert me but ends up overcome by my intellectual and personal charisma. We carried on in this vein in a very good natured and humorous way.

    I was doing reverse psychology, double-bluff, jokes, undercutting, mirroring tactics, all devastating. They were simultaneously warned about my impregnable defences and counter-thrusts, but were charmed by me.

    So, eventually I persuaded them of the futility of their efforts with me, and that I didn't want to plant seeds of doubt in their minds (although maybe I wouldn't mind planting seeds inside the MILF if you know what I mean, but I didnt say that, I just thought it), because I am a compassionate man who accepts everyone as they are. They were very impressed, I could tell, and I even told them about the time once in London when I actually met a Seventh Day Adventist evangelising in Hyde Park, and gave her doubts about her faith, its called evangelical blowback.

    I could tell they were enlivened by my conversation with them. Just before they departed, they asked me if I would at least accept some of their pamphlets and a book.

    "I believe in the principle of reciprocity. I will accept your books, and promise to read them, if you accept a book from me, and also promise to read it"

    Jehovas Witness MILF looked excited. The other one asked what publication I was offering in return. And without even allowing for a bat of the foxy lady's eyelid I said, "The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins"

    (Now as an aside, wouldn't it be an idea to print Dawkins pamphlets for these situations, to give to evangelists on the doorstep or wherever)

    Never mind that I had misplaced my copy of The God Delusion. My mind scrambled. I could lose face if I failed to find it. Luckily they just laughed. As a contingency my brain reminded me that I had a book given to me by a Hare Krishna in Liverpool in the summer, which has lots of pictures of men with tigers heads and women with shapely boobs and twelve arms. Although undermining some of what I had said previously, it would at least have been a colourful contrast for them, and that can never be a bad thing.

    Alas, this intellectual, spiritual jousting had to end, and I bid them farewell, and before she left the MILF smiled and winked at me. Although it could have been a twitch, who knows, these are the mysteries of the universe.


    001_wub billy

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #8 - November 16, 2010, 06:37 PM




    The thing is, we don't know how demographics are going to change in the future. Birth rates amongst Muslims might fall, birth rates amongst non Muslims might rise. Immigration from Islamic countries might increase or decrease. Chain migration through cousin marriage between Mirpur in Pakistan and Muslim communities in the UK might waver, decrease, or stay the same. Same with chain migration between Sylhet in Bangladesh and the UK. Other Muslim communities like the Somalians or the Turkish may change in size. Religiosity may decrease, apostacy might increase. The truth is, there are so many factors that are at play here, that it is almost impossible to make a definite judgment on such matters.

    However, one thing that is true is this. Its not just 'Eurabia' touting right-wingers who are to blame for this projection. It has been a direct result of Islamic Ummah Identity Politics, fostered by a mistaken, rigid form of 'multiculturalism', that has given rise to these fears.

    Ever since the Rushdie affair, various ideologues, bolstered by the Jamat-e-Islami and Muslim Brotherhood, have purposefully created schisms in the fabric of UK life projecting their separatist ideas, and spoken in terms that basically are identical to the memes expressed by the Eurabia crowd.

    Islamic Identity Politics has been the most disastrous thing to happen to British Muslims.

    It feeds separatism. It drives a wedge between them and everyone else in British society. It hungers and perpetuates an hysterical grievance and victimhood culture. It is selfish. It knows no other mode than to raise the volume of itself, giving the impression of an embattled and aggressive mission to seek special priveliges for Muslims and Islam, in perpetual hostility to non Muslims, and non Muslim society.

    It asserts that Muslims are a monolithic singular block - something that the 'Eurabia' types also assert.

    How can anyone miss this? Islamic Ummah Identity Politics is exactly what asserts that in the first case, and it does so perpetually and incessantly. In the UK, large parts of cities and towns are almost exclusively Muslim. London, Birmingham, Bradford, all have areas that are effectively, completely Islamic enclaves. Now it probably is the case that these numbers demographically don't amount to what the 'Eurabia' folks say is happening. But combined with all these other factors, it can be seen to give the impression that what is being said has some merit.

    The truth is, organised religious identity politics concurs with 'Eurabia' projections. It cajoles, coerces, and pressures Muslims and non Muslims into viewing Muslims as one undifferentiated mass who have narrow identities and narrow objectives. It does project an idea of Islamic power within secular liberal democracies, territorial ideas of the 'numbers game' that can be used to make demands about various things in this religious identity politics game. This is what the Eurabia folks say - and it is generated from within Muslim Identity Politics in the UK. How can you talk about this subject, without acknowledging and criticising this? This is why I say, Muslim Identity Politics has been the most catastrophic thing to happen to Muslims in the UK.

    These are some more facts - there is a movement amongst some British Muslims to incorporate sharia laws and sharia codes into British life. This emanates from Muslims and Islamic activists themselves. That enacts what 'Eurabia' people say. There is religious extremism within British Islam that results in violence and marginalisation of moderate Muslim voices and murders non Muslims, that is not being faced up to adequately within the Muslim community. This is a reality. There are appalling oppressions of women and dissenters within some Islamic contexts in the UK. There are separatists impulses and open rhetoric of extremism that people see every day in colleges, schools and universities. There is a constant restatement of Islamic Ummah Identity Politics taking up a disproportionate amount of "wavelength" in British society, and this hardens feelings amongst non Muslims, perpetuating a more tribal mentality amongst everyone else. Society becomes not a culture that aspires to coherence, it aspires to mono-cultural groups in competition with each other for the crown of victimhood and 'Identity Power and Prominence'. Even the far-right BNP begin to ape this rhetoric - the white working class is posited as being under threat, as an other component in this reactionary competitive communalist dynamic that has been a fire furnished and blown into flame most actively and continually by (mostly male) Islamic Identity Politics.

    Also, this 'wavelength' out of proportion to the actual numbers of Muslims in the UK also gives the impression of Islam constantly being larger than it is, because it seeks publicity to assert itself. Muslims are naturally prone to playing the numbers game - its always 'Islam is the fastest growing, the biggest, the best', when this is on loop constantly, and is asserted into the minds of people in general, it also gives the impression of assertive proportion and almost becomes like a threat. Again, this is the disaster of Ummah Identity Politics - it feeds and creates problems, but it is so hungry to assert itself it has no other mode. It can't be quiet. It has to be loud. That is its nature.

    These are realities. You can say that they are being blown out of proportion, and that can be an argument (not something I would agree on completely, but it certainly has merit); but you can't say that these issues are being concocted in a vaccuum in the imaginations of 'Eurabia' types - when many of them actually have roots within British Islam, and thus whether 'Eurabia' is going to be a reality or not, it certainly gives the impression that we live in a society in which Islam is increasingly assertive, separatist, seeks special priveliges, and contains an activist class that perpetuates the idea of a single undifferentiated 'Ummah' mass that is at odds with wider society. So many things have happened to destroy trust between kuffars and Muslims. From the lack of real large scale introspection about the very real extremism that exists in some British mosques and communities, to the denial of this problem, to initiatives designed to lecture non Muslims about their supposed 'misperceptions' about Islam whilst not concentrating on those Muslims who have those 'misperceptions' that cause the problems in the first place. All of this has the cumulative effect of giving this impression that others, like 'Eurabia' types can interpret or exaggerate or look at from their own perspective.

    You cannot confront 'Eurabia' dogmatists without acknowledging this, it simply is not tenable to do so with any real insight or honesty.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #9 - December 29, 2010, 09:15 AM

    The human authors of Islam painted themselves into a corner by proclaiming the Qur’an to be no less than the Final Testament from the Abrahamic desert god, and that Mohammed was the seal prophet, to confirm, correct, complete and give closure to the prophesies that came before. Its an incredibly arrogant and short-sighted thing to do, but quite understandable when you take into account the apocalyptic doomsayer culture it was born from, authored by those who thought the word would end ages ago, perhaps even in their own lifetime. And of course, it didn’t end. And so, the supposed measure of divine wisdom revealed in the Qur'an uncannily resembles the blissfully ignorant views of the men of that time.

    They essentially tied their own hands and trapped all future Muslims in a rigid spiritual prison, with only limited and restricted source material to draw upon, which itself is apparently perfect and irrefutable. Hence why so many Muslim careers have been made on pseudo-philosophy, trying to find or manufacture hidden meanings behind drained, worn-out lines of text that have not aged well, and we end up with the so-called miracles of the Qur’an and various strained numerological attempts and desperate pattern seeking. Its all so forced and contrived - a sad and pitiful attempt to keep the Qur’an relevant in a world that’s already moved on.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #10 - March 16, 2011, 03:32 PM

    Edit: Ideally this should be in the wiki section.

    Paradoxes in Islam

    By King Tut

    Preface

    Is Islam divinely inspired? If so, then one would raise the question if one finds contradictions and paradoxes within Islamic theology then surely one has to question the veracity of that particular claim, unfortunately Islam like all faiths is put on a pedestal and elevated to a position where criticism of it is seen as divisive, partisan, or agenda based. Which only helps to further permeate the ignorance many Muslims find themselves living under; where conspiracy theorists operate with impunity and the vast majority of Muslims happen to find themselves believing in conspiracy theories. There is an almost absolute lack of introspectiveness within the Islamic community, if Muslims refuse to look in the mirror then their plight will not change any-time soon. Following are three sets of paradoxes within Islamic theology I shall be presenting. 


    What is a paradox?

    A paradox (In logic) is a statement which contradicts itself for example according to Princeton: "`I always lie' is a paradox because if it is true it must be false"[1]


    Predestination, Omniscience and Free Will

    Divine pre-ordainment (al-qada wa'l-qadar) in Islam is predestination; this is explained in Qur'anic verses such as "Say: 'Nothing will happen to us except what Allah has decreed for us: He is our protector'?"(Qur'an 9:51) - According to Islamic tradition, all that has been decreed by Allah is written in al-Lawh al-Mahfuz, the "Preserved Tablet"[2]. There are a number of problems with predestination in theology, Allah already knows everything since he is omniscient, then why did he for example test Abraham's faith? by asking Abraham to sacrifice his son according to Qur'an 37:102? It makes testing Abraham's faith completely nonsensical.

    Moreover, since Allah is omniscient we cannot have free will, so free will in Islam is really just an illusion this concept is not just stagnant to the Qu'ran alone it can also be found in the Hadith for example:

    Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 77:

    Volume 8, Book 77, Number 594:
    Narrated Anas bin Malik:
     The Prophet said, "Allah puts an angel in charge of the uterus and the angel says, 'O Lord, (it is) semen! O Lord, (it is now ) a clot! O Lord, (it is now) a piece of flesh.' And then, if Allah wishes to complete its creation, the angel asks, 'O Lord, (will it be) a male or a female? A wretched (an evil doer) or a blessed (doer of good)? How much will his provisions be? What will his age be?' So all that is written while the creature is still in the mother's womb."

    Emphasis mine. This raises some points, Allah knowingly creates humans who will commit evil as this is what he has destined for the person; since I have shown free will in Islam is really an illusion. Allah decrees if a human being turns out to be 'good' or 'bad' and then Allah will punish or reward that human based on something the human had absolutely no control over. Since Allah decreed it, to turn out in a particular way the human has no power over his destiny.

    Mercy & Justice

    "Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate," beginning of every chapter except one, and in numerous other places. Name frequently used in chapter 55 of the Qu'ran. Allah also calls himself "Al-Adl" which means: "The Utterly Just" used in chapter 6 verse 115 of the Qu'ran. Below I will present to you a thought experiment which shows the paradox of Allah being both merciful and just.

    Imagine two children, named Imran and Akmal; Imran comes from a very wealthy family while Akmal comes from an extremely poor family. Imran one day invites Akmal to his house, when Imran is not looking Akmal steals some jewellery which Akmal sells so that he can feed his poor family for the rest of their life. Imran's family are so wealthy they do not even notice the stolen jewellery.

    In the above context, it would be impossible for Allah to be both merciful and just at the same time. If Allah is merciful towards Akmal then Akmal is not punished for his crime of stealing, if Allah is just then Akmal will be punished and most likely his family will starve to death. The above situation creates a paradox as mercy and justice as two distinct concepts, so when Allah applies both of these attributes to himself this leads to a logical contradiction.

    Infinite and Existence

    Allah gives himself the attribute of infinite by claiming he is "Al-'Azim" in the Qu'ran (2:255, 42:4, 56:96) if the universe was 'created' by Allah then he could not have existed until he created the universe since there was no concept of time, and space. Since nothing can exist outside of existence by definition then Allah cannot be infinite, since he could not have existed outside of 'creation' in which everything exists. Moreover according to Aristotle, a completed infinity cannot exist even as an idea in the mind of a human. In mathematics and philosophy we find two concepts of infinity: potential infinity, which is the infinity of a process which never stops, and actual infinity which is supposed to be static and completed, so that it can be thought of as an object. Potential infinity can exist however actual (or completed) infinities do not exist, which is often applied to Allah, since Allah is claimed to be a completed infinite object.

    Conclusion

    It is undeniable, that Islam is completely incompatible with logic, reason and rationality. This is why I do not believe in Islam, since it carries internal and external contradictions.   

  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #11 - April 05, 2011, 04:21 PM



    Carl Sagan
    ~ November 9, 1934 – December 20, 1996 ~


    ~oOo~

    I never really cared much for science when I was younger. It would be wrong of me to blame a religion for that since it was never something that interested me in the first place. I don’t even remember much at all what my science teachers said. But maybe if I had a good teacher things might have been different. Who knows? I often wonder what it would be like to have Carl Sagan as my science teacher. Maybe I would have showed up more often. Maybe I'd have had posters of him on my wall instead of Pac and Mos Def. He was before my time though. Yet, in a strange way, he was my first science teacher. But that isn’t really the point. He was much more than that too.

    I’ll always remember catching Cosmos: The Shores of the Cosmic Ocean, on TV…

    The surface of the Earth is the shore of the cosmic ocean. On this shore, we've learned most of what we know. Recently, we've waded a little way out, maybe ankle-deep, and the water seems inviting. Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return, and we can, because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself…

    The journey for each of us begins here. We are going to explore the cosmos in a ship of the imagination, unfettered by ordinary limits on speed and size, drawn by the music of cosmic harmonies. It can take us anywhere in space and time. Perfect as a snowflake, organic as a dandelion seed, it will carry us to worlds of dreams, and worlds of facts.

    Come with me.


    Its hard to think of any voice or words that have affected me as much as those. I’d have to compare it to my mothers forgiveness, my fathers first hello after many years, or the one I love telling me those three special words. Landmark moments in my life, spiritual awakenings, as symbolic to me as shedding my skin, words written into the core of my being, sealed on my heart of hearts, enriching my life, making me a better person, or at least inspiring me to try to be.

    Maybe I heard it at the right time, maybe it appealed to the artist or the tragic romantic in me, maybe it was the rolling shot of the beach, the crashing waves and the background music, maybe it was just the drugs still in my system, who knows, it isn’t important. What’s important is religion was dead to me at that point, Islam a toxic spiritual wasteland that I was lost in, looking for some sign, some guidance, some help to deal with where my life was headed, just something, anything. And that guiding hand came from elsewhere - just an ordinary looking man, with the most extraordinary voice… "Come with me". If ever I had a religious experience, this was most likely it. I cried then. I am crying now watching it again. Happy crying.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lqsG9_ughU

    I thank Carl Sagan for not only encouraging me to start educating myself, but also waking me up from whatever shitty slumber I was in, and also for dispelling the sad reputation that science has earned as some kind of sterile and mechanical concept, rigid and void of emotion. The way he describes science is beautiful, open-ended and poetic - a strange alchemy of philosophy, spirituality and tangible discovery. The pursuit of it is as spiritual a goal as any, even a passing interest in it can enrich your life if you let it.

    Carl Sagan, and other beautiful souls like him, give the universe a human hand-hold, and a pertinent message to humanity, simple enough to awaken a child-like awe in me, and at the same time deep enough to leave a lasting impression on me for life. He speaks of endless possibilities and uncountable mysteries with so much passion and energy that only a dead heart would not be moved, or a small mind already filled. And that warm smile. You cannot fake a smile like that. His words speak to me and teach me about the world around me in profound ways. Billions upon billions of ways. What we know is just a drop in the ocean and yet its enough to fill me up with knowledge. I am overflowing with knowledge. I have so much knowledge that I could never appreciate it enough in my lifetime, and never understand even a fraction of it. Do we really need to understand? Do we need an end goal like that? It is enough for me to just bask in the unknown and enjoy the journey. I am not afraid of not knowing. I relish it.

    Carl Sagan showed me that life doesn't have to be lonely or empty without gods. My life certainly isn't. My life was much more lonely and isolated and hopeless with god. My paradise is living and breathing in this world right now. My angels and heroes, flesh and blood, here and now, with feelings like mine. Why can’t the living, material, tangible world be magnificent enough for us? It seems silly to desire an afterlife with all this going on. The universe is much more beautiful and infinitely more interesting than any vain imaginings of heaven. I see a natural, mortal, possibly finite universe and I am filled with strength, inspiration, hope, love, and an unquenchable desire to make the most of every second here on this earth, and surround myself with people who want to do the same, and keep hold tightly of fond memories of those who are with us no more.

    So this is to you, Mr Sagan. A good man, a beautiful soul, a true inspiration to me: Happy Birthday.

    To live in the hearts we leave behind
    Is to live forever


    RIP Carl Sagan

    001_wub


    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #12 - June 29, 2011, 09:55 PM

    I love you Jema. Cheesy


    The creeping numbskullery creeps on creepishly. It's everywhere. It's inescapable. Baby squeeze me tight. The outrage of the month: To a request for the manager of a department store I visited earlier that he do a better job of vetting his employees for elementary sanity, I was met with sullen rudeness and almost manhandled out of the mall. The clerk about whom I complained had intimated, in no ways subtle, that I had not paid for an item I had purchased from a few stores down not an hour before and I suggested that the store manager would do well in future not to employ the palpably "moronic".

    Can you hear that distant sound dear reader? Out of the way, it is the wailing siren of the thought police. Gulag here I come. Could I, spat the histrionically inflamed creature passing for a lady, not employ such abusive language? Fiddlesticks!

    Daft is the man who would use that word pejoratively. A moron, the common usage notwithstanding, is not a term of opprobrium. It describes a mental condition. With the runaway debasement of the English language it, along with thousands of finely nuanced words defiled by the unlettered, has been slowly burlesqued out of all recognition. True enough, the condition so described may reflect unflatteringly on a man, but no more so than retardation or paralysis do to convey a diagnosis. Here I speak of course only to the genteel tradition; the cerebrally arrested view all things as wounding to their ego. A competent physician, straining to avoid giving undue offence, may opt for colourful euphemisms to express a benighted mental state, but how this rebranding helps the afflicted is not immediately clear.#


    Started from the bottom, now I'm here
    Started from the bottom, now my whole extended family's here

    JOIN THE CHAT
  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #13 - July 09, 2011, 03:25 PM

    One thing you have gotten right though is that Islam is this: "we have to obey and we will get to heaven". To be a true Muslim, you have to suspend your god-given frontal lobes, all critical thinking is placed on the back burner and you just input the bullshit data (Qur'an, hadiths, tafsirs) and auto-pilot your way through life hoping to get to the gardens of hooris. But similar to computing, if you put bullshit data in, you get bullshit data out.

    Brother, this whole thread is just one example of how Muslims cannot think for themselves. When there is no answer, they panic, they argue, they say that the question is, by default from "shaytaan". So any question Allah has refused to answer is from shaytaan? Is this a general rule? Every aspect of your life, no matter how ridiculously small and trivial, is submitted to Allah, Muhammad or the ulama classes for a verdict. Everything from wiping your ass with which hand, to washing yourself, to whether you should step into your house with your right foot or left foot, to which finger nail to trim first.


    Wrong... is an interesting word. I think most atheists would respond with various examples of contradictions, inconsistencies and illogical parts of Islamic belief. But I wouldn't trust a 'reasoned argument' as far as I can throw it. People can rationalise anything. Given a pre-existing, inherent bias, you can logically validate absolute shit. You can talk your way out of (or create) any hole in Islam, heck I'd do it for you. As above, with the discussion about Allah having a personality - I'm sure you could form a logically valid argument about it, but that doesn't make it a sound argument - that is, it doesn't make it true. I asked you for positive evidence, or an argument which necessitates Allah's existence, and existence in his specific form, rather than have you working backwards, trying to justify an absurdity. I could come up with a god with completely different traits, and argue in a similar fashion to you, and we would be none the wiser as to who, if anyone, is right. The point being, then, that even an error free Islam should not be assumed to be true, without valid reason -

    Yes, a god could exist. An omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent god, even. And some time between infinity and eternity, this needless god, who cannot be affected by anything, who has no wants nor desires, somehow decided to act. And his act could have been to create a vast, wondrous universe, so that, some 13.7 billion years later, in a corner of one of a hundred billion galaxies, orbiting one of its 200 billion stars, a mote of dust and water could give rise to - among a million different species of life - a talking ape. So that they could be judged for which hand they ate their food with and what sort of holes they stuck their penises in. And, in his infinite wisdom, God could have decided the ultimate test for this form of life, distinguished by its intellect and reason, to be blind faith. So, deliberately hiding himself, he chooses a handful of humans (who possess penises of course), with whom he will directly communicate, who alone are blessed, to convey his message.

    A plea for worship and adoration. The promise of satiating carnal desires for the obedient and warning of an impending tantrum for the rebellious. And at some undistinguished point in history, in some insignificant part of the world, he could have chosen his last prophet. And given him a book, written only in Arabic, and revealed over 23 years, bit by bit, - so that it just happens to look like it was made up ad lib by an Arab - recounting myths of men surviving in the bellies of giant fish, sleeping for hundreds of years in a cave, staffs turning into serpents, 100ft humans and global floods. Claiming the existence of messengers for all peoples and for all times, yet only detailing those from a relatively small area of the world in a relatively short period of human history, just happening to match the world view of a  7th century Arab. Outlining the great God's ultimate demand - Believe in spite of yourself. Questions, doubts, reason - they are from the devil. The one that pisses in men's ears and shits on women's heads - just accept it, or else. So for the gullible - eternal bliss. For the sceptical - incomprehensible torture; because they had the temerity to think, because they refused to be sheep and dared to be human...

    So much for errors. Doubtless none of that is impossible. You could rationally and logically validate all of it, no doubt at all. But why on earth would you believe it?

    There is no good reason to. The most Muslims can muster is more wordplay with more bullshit from the 'miraculous' qur'an. Until, and unless, you can provide me with a good reason to even consider Islam's claims to truths, whether it is contradictory or not means nothing to me.



    Started from the bottom, now I'm here
    Started from the bottom, now my whole extended family's here

    JOIN THE CHAT
  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #14 - August 25, 2011, 02:20 PM

    A long forgotten Q-man-ism (subject: how to encourage your kids to be Atheists):

    What stupid ideas.

    Look, here's what you do-- you buy a handgun and write "Religion" on it (you'll probably want a large-frame automatic for this purpose). You also write "Atheism" prominently on a bowl/plate which is used exclusively to serve their favorite meal. Then you hire someone to come into your house, preferably a homeless foreigner, with the gun marked "Religion" (only one round in it) and shoot the kid's favorite stuffed animal. Then you smash the "Atheism" bowl/plate over their head, and also stab them in the chest with a knife marked "Atheism is way cool, kids". Then you put the body in a bag labeled "God", throw it in the trunk of your car, and drive the kids out to a remote wooden area, and hand them shovels that say "Secularism" on them and make them dig a grave. In the meantime, smash the dead stuffed-animal killer's teeth out with a hammer that says "Berbs is always right" on it, then cover the body with lime to aid decomposition (especially make sure to get the head and hands), fill the grave with dirt, and lay down some squares of grass you previously obtained from the same area, and toss some leaves and twigs on top. Then wash out the trunk of your car, and set the whole car on fire.

    That'll teach 'em.

  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #15 - September 23, 2011, 01:20 PM


    I just cleaned up all the chat from this thread - please remember to post the top class posts you think should be kept in one thread for reference and to make sure they aren't missed!


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #16 - October 12, 2011, 11:05 AM

    One of MAB's rant against the mods

    @Allat,

    We've talked about this privately. I don't wanna air our personal correspondence for the gaze of the riff-raff, but the seal is now broken. Let confidentiality be eternally damned.  As proposed your burden will be lightened by many orders of magnitude the day you hand the diamond encrusted sceptre of adminship to the Bison. The first move I will take is to exile you promptly for the duration of forty days and forty nights in the tradition of the Redeemer for giving the republic of the godless over to abandoned flesh-mongers like David and his sister High Octane. You will be sorry.

    To echo my letter, I think you are doing a matchless job, a sterling job, a fine job like no other. Who will deny it?  But the team is being rather let down by that brother of a dead goat Osman the Aussie donkey. No disrespect to any donkeys reading this. Give me the reins of power and together, begetting children by the yardful, we shall bring these pond lifes to heel. I’m very strong. Fat and old to be sure, but strong.

    Do this for the board and watch me clear the joint of the botched and the bungled. There will be no more sex talk on a family friendly forum, no more YouTube spamming from Yez, no more disrespect for the elders. I will shake things up. Time was when the board attracted heavyweights like Omar Khayyam and Mrs Rambo. Now it is the congregating church of spikey-haired little chits fresh out of college. This vulgarity just won’t do.

    Let me be concrete. I don’t ask for stricter policing or invigilating. My gripe is not concerned with personal conduct. We all know how the disruptive are handled in this paradise of reason: Boot them if their politics don't align with the mods and cosset them if they do. A two tiered system of justice.  I would have it no other way. No, that’s not my grumble. What I do suggest is that we might do well to sticky threads which stand out from the endless stream of here-today-gone-tomorrow current affairs material. Illustration: Why is the long running thread about credulity-straining hadiths not given the prominence it merits? A good educational discussion out of which scores of the Eternally Damned have been born. 

    I don’t say that you should sticky every Timeless Wisdom by the Hairy Turk. That will make others suspect that we are swapping more than just private messages. Just the educational stuff. 

    Give the job to the Bison.  I offer my administrative services diffidently, reluctantly, hesitantly. The delicate flower that I am I don’t have the backbone to bring down the disciplinarian cudgel and order this man "go" and he goeth and that man "come" and he cometh. Nor do I have the time since the onset of the exam season to keep up with this place. Gotta prep the students. And my barefoot kids are starving. But for the sake of the true, the good and the beautiful I will cowboy up and carry forth the torch of the Enlightenment. Think about it ‘cause I haven’t.


    I wonder if he is coming back soon

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #17 - October 18, 2011, 11:19 PM

    spot for later!  Smiley

    Rather be forgotten than remembered for giving in.
  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #18 - October 19, 2011, 10:41 PM

    Its inimitable in the same way free verse poetry is inimitable.  No one claims that Walt Whitman had supernatural authorship.   The distinction between Arabic prose and poetry seems to be a red herring.  The divisions were and are there for a division of study, not as the whole sum of " the productive capacity of the Arabic language( or any language)".  The only thing that seems remotely a test of supernatural authorship is the idea that unique combination of rhythmic patterns that could not be intimated, but this seems to be destroyed by claiming that the Quran doesn't stick to any specific rhythmic pattern making it impossible to test, and it would be trivially easy to substitute a word in with the same symbolic pattern with a slightly altered meaning.  Plus even if it did have a unique style that doesn't show supernatural authorship only uniqueness, as Hassan pointed out. 


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #19 - October 23, 2011, 10:45 PM

    OK this question pops up on a regular basis so let's make this very clear (I hope):

    Verbs in Arabic have several forms, (11 main ones). Each form gives a slightly different meaning to the root meaning and each form has it's own verbal noun (a noun derived from the verb). I will use the root of Islam (SLM) to illustrate this (The numbers refer to the verb form - I have only listed the main forms of this verb.)

    1. (Verb) To be safe, sound, at peace سَلِمَ
    Verbal noun:  سلام (Salaam) Soundness, Well-being, safety, peace, security (There are other nouns from the first form with similar meanings i.e. سَلَامَة  سِلْم )

    2. (Verb) To keep (someone) safe, sound, to deliver, handover, surrender سَلَّمَ
    Verbal noun تَسْلِيم (Tasleem) Handing over, keeping safe, delivering, surrendering (something or someone).

    4. (Verb) To submit/surrender (something or someone), and also to become a Muslim أَسْلَمَ
    Verbal noun: إِسْلَام  (Islam) Surrendering, Submitting.

    10. (Verb): اسْتَسْلَمَ To surrender (intransitive i.e. oneself).
    Verbal noun: اسْتِسْلَام  (Istislaam) Surrender

    As you can see the noun Salaam (Peace) is the verbal noun of the 1st form.

    The noun Islaam (Islam) is the verbal noun of the 4th form. It means Submitting/Surrendering. It doesn't mean Peace.

    HOWEVER Muslims can make the valid claim that it carries the sense of making your self at peace by surrending/submitting yourself - since it does have that connection to the root, meaning to make safe, sound and be at peace.

    But to say Islam means peace - is wrong.

    I hope that helps.


    btw although I say Muslims can make the valid claim that Islam carries the sense of making your self at peace by surrending/submitting yourself - that is TOTALLY different to saying Islam means peace.

    To say Islam means peace is to give the impression that it means peace with others. At best Islam means achieving peace for oneself by submitting to the "true" Roll Eyes religion.

    See the difference?



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #20 - November 12, 2011, 09:25 PM

    Abood without ecstasy is like Q without a gun, Zaiba without a vibrator, DH without bad jokes, Kod without his weed, Yeez without incoherency, Rora without her cats, Zizo without violent anal sex, Gladfly without creepy wink smileys, Harakaat without cunninlingus or Prince without fat fingaz. It just don't work son.  cool2


    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #21 - November 12, 2011, 09:26 PM

    that really did have to be included.  Afro Cheesy
  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #22 - December 30, 2011, 04:58 PM

    wow, thanks for sharing previous posts Afro
  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #23 - February 13, 2012, 07:11 PM

    (I can't be bothered to tidy it up, but here's one I made earlier):

    I think the mistake you make is to call it a switch. There are many reasons to leave a religion. There are many reasons to disbelieve in gods. Doing either doesn't necessarily mean one will jump straight into bed with a replacement. It can also be liberating life experience. It doesn't have to leave a religion shaped hole that needs filling - it can set you free to just explore yourself and the universe and take it as it comes. Some people don’t even have emotional attachments, instead having practical attachments. Some want or need neither. Both these kind of attachments can be replaced. But you’re not going to put much thought into finding a replacement if they are still holding your attention.

    Islam never really held my attention. I always found myself out of synch with it. Praying was boring, fasting was uncomfortable, the structured ruleset was frustrating me, curiosity was met with trite answers that left me unsatisfied, and the divine directives didn’t sit right with me, and I saw the injustices and didn't like them, not only to myself but to others, long before I actually did any reading or investigation into the rationale of how things came to be this way for me. So I wouldn’t describe it as emotional. I think it was a practical, sensual thing - it smelled like bullshit. I was an unbeliever even before I realised what one was, simply by practical deduction. There was no “Eureka!” moment. There was no BOOM! I am an Atheist! It was a complete non-event - the end of an organic, gradual process. The result of largely an unconscious effort.

    Some people are just not born to be Muslim. Some people have a wilder lust for the world and an animal ‘fear of the trap’ that makes resistance to systems of life like Islam part of their very being. And it's maybe more typical of adolescence than adulthood. Maybe I got out just in time, before I made a terrible compromise to my existence. I can’t really speak for emotional attachments in this case, but I can maybe explain why Islam is not even remotely attractive to me except maybe as a chew toy when I’m bored.

    First, the theological claims of Islam have been proven to be false, again and again, by people much more informed and eloquent than I. Simply by its own internal inconsistencies and fallacies as a work of literature, the Qur’an is self-refuting. Any theist with a modicum of self-respect has to concede that it was ‘just metaphor and parable’ in order to reconcile it with reality and in order to be accepted as marginally sensible in a modern adult world.

    Taken at face value, without bias, the Qur’an is profoundly lacking in substance. As a work of literature, its terrible. Poorly written, poorly structured, uncannily resembling the blissfully ignorant views of the men of that time.This is a fact: it has been outshined, outclassed, outmatched by superior written works. And it makes matters worse for itself by being such an arrogant work. Making bold claims of perfection, challenging its reader to find better. Well, guess what? I found better, and I didn’t even have to look very hard at all. Maybe millennia ago, when books were simply not available, it stood out as the bestest fresh and relevant thing to hand, but what are people’s excuses these days? You can walk into any library or bookshop and take a random book off the shelf and prove this point: the Qur’an has not stood the test of time.

    Subjective? Perhaps. But when you consider the vast majority of Muslims have not even read the Qur’an anyway and claim to be an authority on it, and when you consider that many of the ones who do actually investigate their own scripture, blatantly lie and squirm about massive sections of its content when they are cornered about it, I think I’ve got a pretty good case. Hence why so many Muslim careers have been made on pseudo-philosophy and bunk science, trying to find or manufacture hidden meanings behind drained, worn-out lines of rotting text that are demonstrably defunct, and we end up with the so-called Miracles of the Qur’an and various strained numerological attempts and desperate pattern seeking. It’s all so forced and contrived - a sad and pitiful attempt to keep the Qur’an relevant in a world that has already moved on.

    On to the mythology. I love a good myth. I love a good story - big, larger than life characters, heroes and villains, champions and monsters, honour, bravery, tragedy, deceit, epic sagas, swashbuckling human drama - good old fashioned storytelling. What the authors of the Qur’an have managed to do, in the process of plagiarising and cannibalising every tradition that came before, is to ruin great myths. And its biggest crime is surgically removing any modicum of humour from them. Sterilising them to fit in with The Plan. It has a complete inability to laugh at itself. Islam is where great myths go to die. It’s a graveyard of broken myths. One seeking true adventure would do well to follow the trail of breadcrumbs back to the originals it has stolen from. See for yourself the hatchet job those ham-fisted bastards did.

    What about philosophy? Here is what I can write about the philosophy of Islam: Nothing. There isn’t anything to go on. Islam is philosophically sterile. It’s almost as though philosophy didn’t even exist as a concept hundreds of years earlier, almost like Islam evolved in a philosophical vacuum. The measure of its failings is illustrated when any analysis of Islam has to be cross referenced with superior works, some even older. It’s almost funny. What a pathetic, infantile stab in the dark at philosophy Islam offers us. What kind of unfortunate and simplistic proto-mind can be satisfied by it? What appetite do I have that otherwise intelligent and respectable Muslims do not? It is a mystery to me.

    Belief in Islam takes so much from you. Yes, it takes from you, and gives back nothing you can’t drink elsewhere from cleaner streams. You’re diving for pearls in poisoned waters. It traps Muslims in a rigid spiritual prison. A good, subservient, observant Muslim has their spiritual journey restricted by the ruleset of Islam. It is not only restricted, but ruthlessly policed by an all seeing eye. There is the overbearing knowledge that you will be judged according to a specific and set standard. You are held back. You are compelled in some cases to fight against your own good conscience, do things no good person should do, for no other reason than: it says so in a book I think is awesome. Like the wise man Jason Bourne once said, “Do you even know why you’re supposed to kill me? Look at what they make you give.”

    As an institution, Islam is systematically responsible for some of the worst human rights violations in the world. It is no coincidence. These things don’t just happen to be occurring in Muslim nations. These are the directives of Islam, the divine will of a fantasy war god that ancient clerics and superstitionists decided to name “Allah”. These things are the cornerstones of its tradition - subdue, suppress, assert, aggress, spread, dehumanise opposition, demonise dissent, sustained by the unwavering faith in the ascendancy and supremacy of the chosen. This is not something I even want to believe in, support, or swear allegiance to, even if it were miraculously and irrefutably revealed to be true. Even if I did believe in the existence of a god resembling the different Abrahamic brands of the One True God™, I’d distance myself from the ponzie scheme as a matter of principle. It is not a choice of belief or disbelief - it is a choice of being a good person or being a good Muslim.

    Ultimately, I was faced with that choice of being a good person or being a good Muslim. A human being cannot be both in my eyes. These two things are at opposite ends of the scale for me. To be an obedient, observant Muslim, you must sacrifice your humanity. You must surrender to a divine will, swear honest fealty to it, without doubt, without questioning. To be a good person you must not only renounce many of the central tenets of Islam, but you must also openly oppose them, wherever they manifest in the world. Then, and only then, can you claim to be a human with me. Or, you can compromise - live some kind of half-life, a contradictory creature, torn between faith and your own conscience, drifting this way and that amid your own confused and unbalanced inner equilibrium - fooling yourself that you are free, and valued, and precious to non-existent higher power. You can pretend that you love an unlovable god, pretend that such a hateful god could ever love you, try to salvage some validation and purpose, some salvation from a book that gives you a little and then takes a lot more, and all the time harbouring a self-loathing, a deep rooted knowledge that you are a slave to that same higher power, with your mind shackled and your heart held back from true human interaction, under his ever-present gaze and scrutiny. That’s no life for me. That isn’t living.

    I reject Islam wholeheartedly. I made my choice. I chose to try and be a good person instead of trying to be a good Muslim. The main symptom of doing so was feeling the weight lift off as each and every facet of Islam fell away from me. I have learned I no longer have to surrender my body, mind and soul to the god of the Prophet’s desires, dreams and delusions, and I have realised that I wont be punished for imaginary crimes in an imaginary afterlife if I choose not to surrender. The more I learned about the Prophet, the more I found him repulsive, even for a man of his time. The more I pulled away from that hideous Abrahamic concept of a supreme ‘one-god’, the more alive and vital I was in this gorgeous universe. I was free to be me, the person inside, perfect with all my flaws, comfortable in my own skin, no longer a mind-slave to the dark age ideologies imagined up by sadistic and insane monsters of history, no longer led along by the nose like cattle, no longer living according to the dogma spelled out by long-dead fools whose ideas belong in the graveyard of failed human endeavours, throwbacks to the infancy of our species. The umbilical cord that holds back the ascendancy and mastery of our own spirits and minds must be cut. We’ve crawled along on our belly for too long under religion. We should be walking on our own by now, running by now. We could even be flying by now.

    There are better role models in this beautiful world than the so-called Prophet. There are better contributions to the world than the cancerous, poisoned chalice known as the Quran. There are better wisdoms out there to find, to add to your own spiritual alchemy, better philosophies, better revelations, better discoveries, better poetic and artistic expression, better hopes and dreams to be had, better love and passions, a much richer, fuller existence - all eclipsed while you are under the black cloud of Islam. I almost hate Islam for the life it denied me for so long, never knowing my potential as a member of the human race. I know that potential now. I can taste it, feel it, appreciate it like never before. I penetrated that black cloud like the chick breaking out of the egg. It was like opening my eyes for the first time to a whole new alphabet of feeling and emotion. Like seeing in colour after a lifetime of black and white.

    I’ll never go back. Never. I would be a fool to. I’ve shed my skin already. My journey has only just begun, my journey of life, with new blood running through me, new verve, new growth, new days, and new hope for the first time - true, tangible hope and possibilities. And with Islam in my rear-view mirror, I have no regrets. This journey of life I am forever grateful for, and I can’t begin to describe how excited I am. I can only show those close to me, making the journey with me. And to those who accept me for who I am, and what I am, I will share myself, naked, unashamed, with arms wide open.



    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #24 - April 04, 2012, 08:05 PM

    this is first level dawahgandism padawan. He said at the beginning he doesn't support or represent Iran or Saudi Arabia, which is truthful and obvious. But when asked specifically about forced veiling he reverted to countries can enforce their own laws which he himself doesn't believe. If a country wants to ban the burka then magically it's against their rights, but if a woman doesn't want to veil in Saudi Arabia and is punished who are we to question their rules? He slips between using rights in Western countries and then stripping those rights away in Saudi Arabia.


    The Saudi Peninsula = The Vatican is another one of those level 1 dawahgandisms that sounds good on the surface but doesn't make sense when you think about it. First is the size difference, the Vatican is 0.172 square miles while Saudi Arabia is 830,000 square miles. The population of Vatican City is 826 with approximately 700 clergy and 150 guards with the 2000 some odd lay workers living outside Vatican City because their isn't enough room in the Vatican to house them. Saudi Arabia has 27 million with populations of Christians, Hindus, and others living there. So it's not a strait comparison of equals. It's an insignificant strip of land with almost no native inhabitants being compared to a large península that is undoubtedly harming thousands of non Muslims that are actually living there.


    Second there is a sense of a tu quoque argument that just says "Well you do it too! " instead of actually addressing the issue. You see the same thing with the blasphemy laws and holocaust denial. Because Germany has a law that makes holocaust denial illegal then it's ok to have blasphemy laws without thinking it's probably better to have neither..





    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #25 - April 29, 2012, 01:03 AM




    I just went back and re-read that article on that Ahmadiyya site, and I am just amazed at how much intellectual dishonesty dawagandists, religious evangelists, Muslim ones here in particular, will engage in. Anything good and sensible, the narrative is "well it is actually from allah too, it just got corrupted and now islam is its best manifestation." It's rather insulting to the thousands of years of history, thought, and discoveries of the ancient chinese, indian, and other peoples, who, when not forced to convert, are basically patted like they're the retards of history who "corrupted" words of allah because of their retardedness.

    A learned taoist or buddhist probably wouldn't care, but as an ex-muslim, I find this arrogance to be really problematic.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #26 - May 12, 2012, 12:36 AM

    It's hilarious how an eternity passed before we existed, then we do some naughty things for 50 years, and are tortured for another eternity. And yet before and after, those naughty little things don't matter at all. No one can sin in heaven, no one can sin in hell. God will make sin's existence impossible. But these sins during our blink-of-an-eye lives are so consequential that our eternal fate depends on them. Cheesy Just how brain-dead do you have to be to know that and still believe it?

    Have sex during irrelevant lifespan? INCOMPREHENSIBLE TORTURE, FOREVER! 'Fuck whoever (whatever even Huh?) you want' during rest of eternity? LOLS IS OK.

  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #27 - May 14, 2012, 10:12 PM

    Because if God exists, man does not create his own nature. Whatever impulses a rapist acts upon were seeded within them by God. Whatever cognitive capacity a rapist has that equips them to make choices was fashioned by God. Whatever reservoir of self-control a rapist has was determined by God.


    ^ Reason I left Islam. Smiley Thanks for putting it succinctly.

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #28 - June 28, 2012, 03:34 PM

    I did a vid on this recently.

    IMO and IME Islam has you hooked on external validation for a sense of significance and purpose.
    They convince you that God and the Quran is the only legit sources of validiation.

    The scariest part about deconversion is no longer having that source of external validation and realizing you'll have to cultivate your validition internally - or you can simply look for another religion/ideology to gain external validation.

    Thankfully there are many exercises and books that can help you to cultivate internal validation/self-approval. That's the basic message for the majority of self-help books.

    If you're a dude and you're a bit of doormat/lack a backbone (not being cruel, I've had the issue throughout my life) then I highly, highly fucking highly recommend a book called; no more mr nice guy. I'm currently letting go of a porn addiction - that book helped me to see some underlying reasons behind it, and the issues I had with masculinity and sex.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: CEMB Greatest Hits - posts you may have missed
     Reply #29 - June 29, 2012, 08:19 PM


    2.  The "signs" the Quran gives aren't especially intellectual, nor does it give the willingness and flexibility that most philosophers and intellectuals accord to those who disagree with them.  Most philosophers and intellectuals give the benefit of the doubt to their opponents and attempt to understand where they come from and understand if an argument might not be persuasive to an opponent ( based on their assumptions) while it might be persuasive to another based on their assumptions.  The Quran makes a series of unsubstantiated assumptions, then makes a bad philosophical argument, and then berates and castigates those who don't agree, to the point of threatening them with eternal punishment and calling them dumber than animals.  It's third rate compared to what actually happens in high end academic, philosophical, and intellectual discourse or even civilized discourse at all.


    All that is fine if you think the book is a record of some local religious guy claiming to be a prophet and his petty squabbles with the local Jews.  In other words if you place it in history.  That's not what is claimed though. The book is universalized.  Disbelief is always disbelief and will always be disbelief.  I really don't need to show you the dozens of clips of various imams and regular Muslims talking in those same terms today.

    I never got why that is such a big talking point. All literature is considered with intellect. Even "low brow" literature like comic books deal with existential issues. The Quran is no different than any other piece of literature. I guess it would mean that unlike most religions Islam asks a person to think,which I don't think is true, but I think that shows how low religious thought is instead of elevating the Quran.  Also the Quran isn't afraid to stoop so low as to brow beat people.

    “Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we would not (now) be amongst the Companions of the Blazing Fire!” (Surah Mulk [Chapter 67] verse 10)

    I mean really, if this has said in a conversation to try and persuade someone, the conversation would be over because the person knows the other person doesn't really value their opinion. It's written in a triumphalist almost sadistic way.  Why use reason to figure out the Quran when if, by chance, you come up with the idea that it's not true then you've simply not used your intellect.  Even you can see the demeaning character of that charade.  

     I'll leave the philosophy part for now since we skirted around it.  

    9 times out of 10 when a religious person uses an analogy to defend themselves it means they don't have shit.

    It's like a huge red flag.


    deusvult communicates what we're all thinking so effectively. Love him. Afro

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
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