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Theme Changer

 Topic: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat

 (Read 68677 times)
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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #180 - September 28, 2010, 05:12 AM

    Yeah, my dad gets internal memos and updates every day. In fact ASDA has a whole underground "Muslims customers marketing and welfare unit". Their guy would visit each Muslim house in the area door to door to inform them about new Halal products.


    Does your father buy meat from ASDA or other supermarkets that has not been marked halal?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #181 - September 28, 2010, 05:16 AM

    How would Muslims know that it's halal if it hasn't been marked as halal?  Huh?

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #182 - September 28, 2010, 05:21 AM

    Quote from: billy link
    No. It is anti-Muslim bigotry. Which is different from a generalised description of a phobia of a religion. Islam is a set of publically asserted ideas about the world, with deterministic ideas about social control, about how people should live, that enunciates judgment on its adherents, and value judgments on those who do not follow its tenets too.


    Would you say it is "bigotry" to state that it is reasonable to assume that any randomly selected individual who defines them selves as "Muslim" fully subscribes to those "ideas about the world" etc - until conclusively proven otherwise?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #183 - September 28, 2010, 05:33 AM

    How would Muslims know that it's halal if it hasn't been marked as halal?  Huh?


    The information has obviously been abroad for some years for those who are concerned enough to find it. Muslims are naturally more inclined to seek out such information on sources of halal meat than non-Muslims and are therefore more likely to have known about this before it became headline news.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #184 - September 28, 2010, 05:43 AM

    Quote from: NineBerry
    What is still unanswered is the question regarding any legitimate objections to halal meat by non-muslims. There are no legitimate objections regarding animal protection. We have learned that so far.


    Where have we learned that exactly?

    Quote
    If there are religious or other cultural objections, I suppose no one would mind anyone creating some sort of organization that offers certification of non-halal meat. I do however doubt that there is a big market for meat specifically labelled as "non-halal"


    Please clarify: do you regard the Muslim desire for NON-halal meat to be "legitimate" and if so why?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #185 - September 28, 2010, 07:50 AM

    Where have we learned that exactly?

    Well, it was mentioned in your opening post for this thread, exactly.

    Quote from: DH's opening post FFS
    because the slaughter conformed to Western standards, with animals stunned before being killed


    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #186 - September 28, 2010, 08:03 AM

    The information has obviously been abroad for some years for those who are concerned enough to find it. Muslims are naturally more inclined to seek out such information on sources of halal meat than non-Muslims and are therefore more likely to have known about this before it became headline news.


    Highly unlikely. I doubt that Muslims have magical superpowers to have known insider trading information way ahead of everyone else.

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #187 - September 28, 2010, 08:05 AM

    I personally don't see any difference between halal and non-halal meat if their claim is true that animals are stunned before slaughter in both cases. But when people think about halal meat, their first impression is usually about a relatively crueler method of slaughter, what with the draining of blood part, so I can see why people wouldn't want to support halal meat. I believe people should know what they're buying into, and if they don't like the idea of halal, they should be given a choice on whether they wish to buy it. Hell, if some dude hates Muslims and won't touch anything halal, I fully support his right to make a choice even when I don't agree with his bigotry.

    "He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
    ~ Douglas Adams
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #188 - September 28, 2010, 08:15 AM

    You people of questionable sexual orientation all need to grow a spare pair of gonads and go stab something repeatedly in the face (or alternatively bludgeon it with a brick). As one of the towering philosophers of (post)modern times once said:

    Just stay off the steroids, ok. They don't suit everybody.  Without falling for the poorly disguised bait, I have to say that I've done my share of killing - thousands and thousands of 'sentient beings' in fact, but I still have a regard for the feelings of anyone who can't stand the sight, never mind the mention of gore. It's not clever to glorify it unnecessarily.
    I especially can't stand the hypocrisy of certain nations and their tamed News coterie who thought it was OK to dwell on shots of shot-up, burnt-up Iraqi troops but wouldn't show shots of maimed Iraqi children in case it affected support for 'the war' which was , in reality, a one-sided massacre. And heaven forfend shots of actual dead US troops - might frighten the horses.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #189 - September 28, 2010, 08:20 AM

    The information has obviously been abroad for some years for those who are concerned enough to find it. Muslims are naturally more inclined to seek out such information on sources of halal meat than non-Muslims and are therefore more likely to have known about this before it became headline news.

     Cheesy

    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #190 - September 28, 2010, 08:39 AM

                                                                         down


    (rejoins thread over blood and breakfast)
    Oz took the words out of my mouth - Arbitrariness just about sums up the totality of such arguments. And as for Speciesism, is not Pete Singer just as guilty of it?  But soft, we have not mentioned the importance of rarity or the subversion of evolution yet.
    I agree with MABs remarks on the achievable reduction of suffering and , remembering Richard Adams' mutant domestic comestible creature in the restaurant at the end of the Universe, the one who invited you to eat some of his best cuts, I feel that if we're going to produce chooks that are oven-ready in 5 weeks, then we owe them a comfortable and pain-free life and death.
    The arguments for favouring rarity speak for themselves.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #191 - September 28, 2010, 08:56 AM

    Peter Singer calls this antediluvian atittude "speciesism", the notion that one may divest non-human creatures of all ethical and moral concerns on account of the fact they don't belong to our own species.

    I watched the video, and as well as his vegetarianism, applaud Singer for giving 25% of his salary to charity. 

    However as humans are meat eaters, then why should we behave any differently than other carnivores have behaved for millions of years?

    By choosing not to eat meat, doesnt he in turn rather condescendingly expect us to be on a higher moral plane than our meat eating animals/cousins, and in turn be just as guilty of what he calls "speciesism"?

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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #192 - September 28, 2010, 09:49 AM

    Does your father buy meat from ASDA or other supermarkets that has not been marked halal?

    Like I said, he has inside info.  Afro
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #193 - September 28, 2010, 10:23 AM


    DH, I can't be arsed discussing anything with you, don't take it personally.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #194 - September 28, 2010, 10:32 AM

    DH, i'm beginning to lose my patience with you. Stop insinuating things, go read what I wrote instead. I'm not wasting another day of my life replying to you.
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #195 - September 28, 2010, 11:32 AM

    Arbitrariness just about sums up the totality of such arguments.


    Grey areas, way at the end of a particular spectrum, does not make the entire argument arbitary. Come on, whether a shrimp has a nervous system or not does not negate the fact that a cow or pig has one. And hence is no excuse to justify their needless suffering.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #196 - September 28, 2010, 11:47 AM

    Love your sig, a.ghazali ^^ Afro
    i.e.
     "Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries." - Zakir Naik


    Says it all, doesn't it.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #197 - September 28, 2010, 11:49 AM

    Grey areas, way at the end of a particular spectrum, does not make the entire argument arbitary. Come on, whether a shrimp has a nervous system or not does not negate the fact that a cow or pig has one. And hence is no excuse to justify their needless suffering.


    Or to put it even simpler, 2 wrongs do not make a right.  

    I agree with Dawkins sentitments on this one.  Killing other beings for our dining pleasures is something i/we do because we have been socially considered to accept its ok.  Much the same way slavery was uncomfortable for many in the olden days, but everybody else did it so it did not seem as bad.  

    It may not be the best comparison but the idea of speciseism hold true in this example too, as Singer points out.   The notion that the value of human lives belonging to different races is less valuable than our own.  If we extend this to our more distant sentient mammalian cousins then the same holds true.

    I have a feeling that as soon as more people turn vegetarianism there will be a critical point at which the numbers  will begin to exponentially rise, to a point in the far distant future where eating the muscle fibres of animals will be carried out by less civilised communities.

    That point will draw closer as soon as we are able to synthesize sufficent quantities of meat in a lab.

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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #198 - September 28, 2010, 11:50 AM

    However as humans are meat eaters, then why should we behave any differently than other carnivores have behaved for millions of years?


    Islame, humans are not carnivores. They are herbivores. Below is a list of characteristics of each and what we humans are:

    Are human beings anatomically more similar to natural carnivores or to natural herbivores? Let’s find out….

    Intestinal tract length. Carnivorous animals have intestinal tracts that are 3-6x their body length, while herbivores have intestinal tracts 10-12x their body length. Human beings have the same intestinal tract ratio as herbivores.

    Stomach acidity. Carnivores’ stomachs are 20x more acidic than the stomachs of herbivores. Human stomach acidity matches that of herbivores.

    Saliva. The saliva of carnivores is acidic. The saliva of herbivores is alkaline, which helps pre-digest plant foods. Human saliva is alkaline.

    Shape of intestines. Carnivore bowels are smooth, shaped like a pipe, so meat passes through quickly — they don’t have bumps or pockets.
    Herbivore bowels are bumpy and pouch-like with lots of pockets, like a windy mountain road, so plant foods pass through slowly for optimal nutrient absorption. Human bowels have the same characteristics as those of herbivores.

    Fibre. Carnivores don’t require fibre to help move food through their short and smooth digestive tracts. Herbivores require dietary fiber to move food through their long and bumpy digestive tracts, to prevent the bowels from becoming clogged with rotting food. Humans have the same requirement as herbivores.

    Cholesterol. Cholesterol is not a problem for a carnivore’s digestive system. A carnivore such as a cat can handle a high-cholesterol diet without negative health consequences. A human cannot. Humans have zero dietary need for cholesterol because our bodies manufacture all we need. Cholesterol is only found in animal foods, never in plant foods. A plant-based diet is by definition cholesterol-free.

    Claws and teeth. Carnivores have claws, sharp front teeth capable of subduing prey, and no flat molars for chewing. Herbivores have no claws or sharp front teeth capable of subduing prey, but they have flat molars for chewing. Humans have the same characteristics as herbivores.

    For a full table of characteristics between Herbivores and Carnivores and the attributes of humans can be found here:

    http://www.tierversuchsgegner.org/wiki/index.php?title=Taxonomy

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #199 - September 28, 2010, 11:52 AM

    Grey areas, way at the end of a particular spectrum, does not make the entire argument arbitary. Come on, whether a shrimp has a nervous system or not does not negate the fact that a cow or pig has one. And hence is no excuse to justify their needless suffering.


    Nobody was arguing that it was ok to make cows and pigs suffer. That wasn't the point.

    ETA: And humans are omnivores, not pure herbivores or pure carnivores. My point about false dichotomies making life more convenient may be relevant here.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #200 - September 28, 2010, 11:57 AM

    I haven't read the entire thread.  I will read it tonight.  But just to put my 2 cents in, I will say that I am not a vegetarian, but I do have a lot of respect for moral philosophers like Peter Singer.  I watched the interview with Richard Dawkins many months ago.

    I like the way he keeps talking about 'consistency' in one's moral framework.  Also Sam Harris has talked about there being many peaks on the moral landscape.  So I don't think vegetarians are more moral than non-vegetarians like Q-Man.  They are both peaks on the moral framework, you could say;  so long as both moral frameworks show consistency. Smiley

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #201 - September 28, 2010, 11:58 AM

    ETA: And humans are omnivores, not pure herbivores or pure carnivores. My point about false dichotomies making life more convenient may be relevant here.

     grin12

    although I think you can interchange the words omnivore-carnivore-herbivore in our posts, and the points made still apply

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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #202 - September 28, 2010, 12:02 PM

    Love your sig, a.ghazali ^^
    i.e.
     "Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries." - Zakir Naik


    Says it all, doesn't it. Roll Eyes


    I extracted it from a video I once saw on youtube. He was being interviewed and ask why churches and temples were banned in some Islamic countries.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #203 - September 28, 2010, 12:03 PM

    I haven't read the entire thread.  I will read it tonight.  But just to put my 2 cents in, I will say that I am not a vegetarian, but I do have a lot of respect for moral philosophers like Peter Singer.  I watched the interview with Richard Dawkins many months ago.

    I like the way he keeps talking about 'consistency' in one's moral framework.  Also Sam Harris has talked about there being many peaks on the moral landscape.  So I don't think vegetarians are more moral than non-vegetarians like Q-Man.  They are both peaks on the moral framework, you could say;  so long as both moral frameworks show consistency. Smiley

    I can't remember who said it but the quote was "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."


    A consistent framework is not necessarily a peak in the landscape. It could just as easily be a chasm. Consistency only applies under the limits of logic, and all logic depends for its operation on the starting axioms that are chosen. Until the axioms are in place logical deduction is impossible. Consequently, in practice the axioms are of critical importance and consistency is possibly of secondary importance.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #204 - September 28, 2010, 12:06 PM

    Nobody was arguing that it was ok to make cows and pigs suffer. That wasn't the point.

    ETA: And humans are omnivores, not pure herbivores or pure carnivores. My point about false dichotomies making life more convenient may be relevant here.


    Nope. We don’t anatomically match up with omnivorous animals anymore than we do with carnivorous ones. Omnivores are more similar to carnivores than they are to herbivores.

    See the table I pointed to before. http://www.tierversuchsgegner.org/wiki/index.php?title=Taxonomy

    View the table of our characteristics against omnivores.

    That site goes on to say:

    The Opportunistic Feeder Theory
    Various folk promote the opportunistic feeder theory which suggests that because man can or has fed on meat, eggs, insects and other animal matter, then man is an opportunistic omnivore. This theory also counters the conclusions of taxonomy presented above, suggesting it is misleading and that species have individual feeding habits and cannot be pigeonholed as taxonomy suggests. The basis of this argument is that animal behaviour and adaptability indicates dietary suitability.

    This theory is false and unscientific. Of course tradition is not scientific, and the practice of humans eating meat is old, but has nothing to do with what we are biologicaly equipped to feed upon. We ate meat to survive, now we eat it out of habit and not need.

    Another quasi-scientific theory is associated with the opportunistic feeder theory. This can be called the biochemical individuality theory which is often seen in far eastern "medicines" such as Traditional Chinese Medicine, and the Ayurvedic systems. This theory suggests that since we are biochemically individual we should all eat individual diets suited to our moods, illnesses and other contrived indicators.

    The logic behind biochemical individuality theory is fallacious, for although we are all unique biochemical beings, we are predominantly the same biochemical system, with low level variations. At the molecular level we differ, at the system level we are alike. If anyone imagines they can adjust their diet according to these individual metabolic variations, they are fooling themselves.

    By picking only the low level system differences to indicate information about dietary choices, or moods, yin and yang and so forth, and extrapolating to the whole, we produce a gross misrepresentation of the facts. As far as we know, all cattle graze, all lions eat raw flesh, all chimps eat a diet of mainly raw fruit and vegetation and all chickens peck for grubs and grains. No animal on earth, that we know of, cooks its food before eating it, except humans. Only human behaviour breaks the taxonomic definition that that science defines for it. Humans prefer culture and technology over nature, and since our natural role is as a raw food herbivore, and because our bodies are only suited to that role, any significant perversion of it must, and does, lead to ill health. One cannot choose what to eat healthily, based on cultural imperitives since one will most likely present the wrong kind and quantity of precursor molecules, as well as introducing poisons to the body. A healthy human body cannot be operated on the wrong chemical inputs. "Garbage in equals garbage out"!

    Our anatomy is clearly unsuited to deal with animal matter in the diet, however our digestive chemistry can deal with animal tissues and obtain some nutrition. But this does not indicate biological suitability or desirability. Cattle, which are herbivorous ruminents may eat many insects while they feed, chimps may occassionally kill and eat a small monkey. A pet cat may eat bread and margarine. So what? Are cattle to be defined as insectivores or omnivores, or opportunistic feeders? Is the pet cat an opportunistic feeder? Certainly, and the chimp an opportunistic feeder? Why not. None of this distorts taxonomy or suprises the biologist. All herbivores will be able to process animal protein to some degree or other since all protein is biochemically related. It is possible with modern processing methods to produce a "cat food" derived solely from plant material and non-animal matter that will keep a cat alive. Is this a herbivorous cat? No, it is a domestic animal eating an industrial diet. Higher lifeforms display a broader range of behaviours, and feeding behaviour simply reflects this, but does not reflect our true biological feeding requirements.

    The opportunistic feeder theory is based on circular logic, "I do therefore I am" and is hard to falsify*, since at a molecular level, food is chemically similar, because all animal tissues are made up of broken down plant tissues.

    The fact that opportunistic feeding theory is circular and hard to falsify make it unscientific, and useless in any discussion of what humans should eat. Taxonomy is accurate, logical but not exact. Since there are exceptions it is falsifiable.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #205 - September 28, 2010, 12:08 PM

    So I don't think vegetarians are more moral than non-vegetarians like Q-Man.  They are both peaks on the moral framework, you could say;  so long as both moral frameworks show consistency. Smiley

    Mine is not consistent, as I do eat meat although its something that my conscience does not fully accept.

    The minute one of these beasts is held captive by a human, then other humans are not allowed to touch it for food or any other means.

    In which case I am not sure Q-mans adds up either, because as soon as he develops a personal relationship with one of these "lesser animals", he then expects the way that they should be treated by others to become massively different. 

    The law of the jungle & the attitude that we are the top of the food chain so f*ck em is what it boils down to imo.

    And I am guilty of that too :(

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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #206 - September 28, 2010, 12:08 PM

    I think in practice we match quite well to omnivores, since we are omnivores and apparently have been for thousands of years.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #207 - September 28, 2010, 12:13 PM

    We eat meat but that does not make us omnivores. Regardless of how long we done it for.

    Read my edited post above .

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #208 - September 28, 2010, 12:14 PM

    It bloody well does, mate.  Cheesy

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #209 - September 28, 2010, 12:15 PM

    I can't remember who said it but the quote was "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."


    A consistent framework is not necessarily a peak in the landscape. It could just as easily be a chasm. Consistency only applies under the limits of logic, and all logic depends for its operation on the starting axioms that are chosen. Until the axioms are in place logical deduction is impossible. Consequently, in practice the axioms are of critical importance and consistency is possibly of secondary importance.

    Also if practicality & desire > moral interests, then moral inconsistency will arise.

    Personally I dont have a contention with this, we're selfish beings & we can only try our best.  

    The only time I get pissed it then gets justified on the grounds that its not a moral interest in order to justify the personal wants - thats when it becomes dishonest.

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