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 Topic: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat

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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #210 - September 28, 2010, 12:21 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on September 28, 2010, 12:14 PM
    It bloody well does, mate.  Cheesy


    Well the science does not back it. So if you want to wallow in the lie of an opportunistic feeder than that's your prerogative.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #211 - September 28, 2010, 12:21 PM
    Question: how long does a species have to choose to eat an omnivorous diet before vegans will consider the species omnivorous?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #212 - September 28, 2010, 12:23 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on September 28, 2010, 12:21 PM
    Well the science does not back it. So if you want to wallow in the lie of an opportunistic feeder than that's your prerogative.

    You'll have to excuse me if I'm unimpressed by religious scripture from vegan websites.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #213 - September 28, 2010, 12:26 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on September 28, 2010, 12:21 PM
    Well the science does not back it. So if you want to wallow in the lie of an opportunistic feeder than that's your prerogative.



    Dont our closest living relatives, the bonobos, also eat meat?  Or are you claiming they, & chimpanzees, happen to be opportunistic feeders too.  On a secondary note, why do we have canines like other meat eaters?
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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #214 - September 28, 2010, 12:29 PM
    so let me get this straight we shouldnt kill an animal (esp if its a sentient beings with a well  developed nervous system) in order to eat it (even if its a painless death) ... as it is morally wrong to do so?? i am guessing morally wrong to do so in developed countries (no starvations there) ... so developed countries should live without animal meat (eventually)??
    and is fish, poultry out of the equation?
    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #215 - September 28, 2010, 12:30 PM
    We do not have canines like carnivores. We have canines similar to every herbivore. Compare your canine to that of a tiger and tell me if you see any similarity!
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #216 - September 28, 2010, 12:31 PM
    And while we're at it, why do we absorb iron so well from meat but hardly at all from vegetable sources? One thing vegetarians love to say is that spinach is full of iron so you can just eat spinach to avoid anaemia. Spinach is full of iron. Stacks of the stuff. The only problem is that it's not in a form our bodies can utilise. For some reason they don't like to consider this, though.

    Then there's vitamin B12. Utterly critical for our health, but not available from vegetarian sources.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #217 - September 28, 2010, 12:33 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on September 28, 2010, 12:30 PM
    We do not have canines like carnivores. We have canines similar to every herbivore. Compare your canine to that of a tiger and tell me if you see any similarity!

    And irrelevant, since neither humans nor chimps kill their prey by biting it. Well, chimps may sometimes bite it but they usually just either beat it to death and/or tear it apart. Humans have invented weapons, of course.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #218 - September 28, 2010, 12:34 PM
    Also makes huge sense for us to evolutinary evolve to eat meat, given our competitive advantage of working more effectively than any other animal in groups, which lends huge favour to hunting & therefore meat-eating.
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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #219 - September 28, 2010, 12:36 PM
    Quote from: tabun on September 28, 2010, 12:29 PM
    so let me get this straight we shouldnt kill an animal (esp if its a sentient beings with a well  developed nervous system) in order to eat it (even if its a painless death) ... as it is morally wrong to do so?? i am guessing morally wrong to do so in developed countries (no starvations there) ... so developed countries should live without animal meat (eventually)??
    and is fish, poultry out of the equation?


    yep, thats what I am saying (even if I dont do it myself  Embarrassed )
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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #220 - September 28, 2010, 12:37 PM
    wikipedia Quote "Nutritional deficiency. This can result due to a lack of dietary iron or consumption of foods that inhibit iron absorption, including calcium, phytates and tannins. Contrary to popular belief, persons following vegetarian and vegan diets have similar iron status and the same rates of iron deficiency as non-vegetarians"

    and B12 is present in a lot of dark green veggies
    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #221 - September 28, 2010, 12:39 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on September 28, 2010, 12:33 PM
    And irrelevant, since neither humans nor chimps kill their prey by biting it. Well, chimps may sometimes bite it but they usually just either beat it to death and/or tear it apart. Humans have invented weapons, of course.

    you might not have tried this technique over in Australia, but we here in the West prefer to cook it  Wink
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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #222 - September 28, 2010, 12:41 PM
    If god didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make them taste like meat?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #223 - September 28, 2010, 12:42 PM
    Cooking is for wusses. Tongue
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #224 - September 28, 2010, 12:42 PM
    Quote from: tabun on September 28, 2010, 12:37 PM
    wikipedia Quote "Nutritional deficiency. This can result due to a lack of dietary iron or consumption of foods that inhibit iron absorption, including calcium, phytates and tannins. Contrary to popular belief, persons following vegetarian and vegan diets have similar iron status and the same rates of iron deficiency as non-vegetarians"

    and B12 is present in a lot of dark green veggies

    Ive heard this before & its probably true, but afaik its not difficult to have a balanced vegetarian diet & live healthily without the need for murder.
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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #225 - September 28, 2010, 12:42 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 28, 2010, 12:26 PM
    Dont our closest living relatives, the bonobos, also eat meat?  Or are you claiming they, & chimpanzees, happen to be opportunistic feeders too.


    As is stated in the article above, chimps may occasionally kill and eat an animal or even another chimp, but that does not make them carnivores or omnivore, just a cat eating a piece of bread does not make it an omnivore.

    The taxonomy of our make-up is that of herbivores. The fact of our ability to digest animal protein does not change that. But it does introduce many health hazards that is less prominent in vegetarians, such as heart disease, cancer and strokes.

    In the past man hunted out of necessity when they were short on crops. Meat eating was a rare event. It wasn't daily like it is today.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #226 - September 28, 2010, 12:45 PM
    Those vegans and their religious scriptures...  Roll Eyes

    Quote from: osmanthus on September 28, 2010, 12:31 PM
    Then there's vitamin B12. Utterly critical for our health, but not available from vegetarian sources.

    This probably wouldn't have been an issue pre-industrial agriculture since B12 is produced in by bacterial molds which reside in soil that people would have ingested by way of unwashed vegetables. The amounts required are aren't great, either (3 mcg per day, iirc). B12 is also available in the stems of some vegetables, etc.

    In any case, B12 supplements work well for the junk food addicted.
    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #227 - September 28, 2010, 12:47 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on September 28, 2010, 12:42 PM
    In the past man hunted out of necessity when they were short on crops.

    No. They hunted by choice even when other foods were available.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #228 - September 28, 2010, 12:51 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on September 28, 2010, 12:03 PM
    A consistent framework is not necessarily a peak in the landscape. It could just as easily be a chasm. Consistency only applies under the limits of logic, and all logic depends for its operation on the starting axioms that are chosen. Until the axioms are in place logical deduction is impossible. Consequently, in practice the axioms are of critical importance and consistency is possibly of secondary importance.

    Ah,  yes.  The axioms need to be in place first.  But to me it seems easier to pick holes and spot inconsistencies in a given moral framework, than it is to decide what to use as the starting axiom.  So I'm being lazy and picking the low-lying fruit first. Tongue
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #229 - September 28, 2010, 12:51 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on September 28, 2010, 12:31 PM
    And while we're at it, why do we absorb iron so well from meat but hardly at all from vegetable sources? One thing vegetarians love to say is that spinach is full of iron so you can just eat spinach to avoid anaemia. Spinach is full of iron. Stacks of the stuff. The only problem is that it's not in a form our bodies can utilise. For some reason they don't like to consider this, though.

    Then there's vitamin B12. Utterly critical for our health, but not available from vegetarian sources.


    The absorption of iron is influenced by other constituents of a meal. Phytates, oxalates and phosphates present in plant foods can inhibit absorption, as can tannin in tea. Fibre may also inhibit absorption. Vitamin C greatly increases the absorption of non-haem iron. Foods rich in vitamin C include citrus fruits, green peppers, and fresh leafy green vegetables. Citric acid, sugars, amino acids and alcohol can also promote iron absorption. Iron absorption can also be influenced by the amount of iron in the diet. Lowered levels of iron in the diet result in improved absorption.

    Good sources of iron for vegetarians include wholegrain cereals and flours, leafy green vegetables, blackstrap molasses, pulses such as lentils and kidney beans, and some dried fruits.

    B12 is available from many sources, milk, seaweed, cheese, yeast extracts, soya milks, vegetable and sunflower margarines, and breakfast cereals.
    Bacteria present in the large intestine are able to synthesise B12
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #230 - September 28, 2010, 12:56 PM
    the bacteria doesnt count as vB12 is absorbed in the terminal ileum ... so thats y u still need vB12 in ur diet
    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #231 - September 28, 2010, 12:58 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on September 28, 2010, 12:33 PM
    And irrelevant, since neither humans nor chimps kill their prey by biting it. Well, chimps may sometimes bite it but they usually just either beat it to death and/or tear it apart. Humans have invented weapons, of course.


    Its how we use those weapons. Inventing tools because of our ingenuity does not change our taxonomy.

    Yes we have tools, and instead of using them for good we'd rather use them to kill and torture animals. We have bombs too. But it doesn't mean we should use them to kill and torture defensely human beings. Though some people have.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #232 - September 28, 2010, 01:01 PM
    Quote from: tabun on September 28, 2010, 12:56 PM
    the bacteria doesnt count as vB12 is absorbed in the terminal ileum ... so thats y u still need vB12 in ur diet


    There are still many sources. Including bacteria moulds as mentioned by Thinkfree and even faeces from insects which are deposited on man fruits and vegetables that we eat.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #233 - September 28, 2010, 01:02 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on September 28, 2010, 12:42 PM
    As is stated in the article above, chimps may occasionally kill and eat an animal or even another chimp, but that does not make them carnivores or omnivore, just a cat eating a piece of bread does not make it an omnivore.

    The taxonomy of our make-up is that of herbivores. The fact of our ability to digest animal protein does not change that. But it does introduce many health hazards that is less prominent in vegetarians, such as heart disease, cancer and strokes.

    In the past man hunted out of necessity when they were short on crops. Meat eating was a rare event. It wasn't daily like it is today.

    I'm on the fence as to the proper dietry classification for the homo sapien animal, although it's of little personal consequence in terms of whether or not I choose to eat non-human animals. Did stone age man club his fellow man to death for ownership of a pretty rock? Did they rape because they could? I don't know for sure the extent of my evolutionary ancestors gentleness and/or savagery, but however they may have lived doesn't inform my ethical choices today.
    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #234 - September 28, 2010, 01:04 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on September 28, 2010, 12:58 PM
    Its how we use those weapons. Inventing tools because of our ingenuity does not change our taxonomy.

    The point is that if we have other ways of killing prey apart from biting it then we do not require canines like a tiger, and therefore the argument that we don't have canines like a tiger is not relevant. We don't need them.



    Quote
    Yes we have tools, and instead of using them for good we'd rather use them to kill and torture animals. We have bombs too. But it doesn't mean we should use them to kill and torture defensely human beings. Though some people have.

    Now you're appealing to emotion. How is feeding people bad, as such? What does eating animals have to do with torturing them?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #235 - September 28, 2010, 01:04 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on September 28, 2010, 12:47 PM
    No. They hunted by choice even when other foods were available.

    I suppose the question boils down to when did this happen, in our early history as humanoids, or in our latter history as greedy oafs
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  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #236 - September 28, 2010, 01:05 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on September 28, 2010, 12:41 PM
    If god didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make them taste like meat?


    Because we have to season it first then cook it and add many spices. No other animal cooks their food. Eating meat as a carnivore would would not too appealing to you, I'm sure!
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #237 - September 28, 2010, 01:05 PM
    We are omnivores. That's what science says.

    It doesn't matter with regard to the question of ethics, however. Nothing becomes ethical or unethical just because we are biologically prone to do it.
    bleed for me...kill for me...die for me
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #238 - September 28, 2010, 01:07 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on September 28, 2010, 01:04 PM
    The point is that if we have other ways of killing prey apart from biting it then we do not require canines like a tiger, and therefore the argument that we don't have canines like a tiger is not relevant. We don't need them.


    Now you're appealing to emotion. How is feeding people bad, as such? What does eating animals have to do with torturing them?


    well , i am guessing we are talking about well developed countries with no starvations .... if its a third world country i am all for killing and eating ...
    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: Top UK supermarkets secretly sell only halal meat
     Reply #239 - September 28, 2010, 01:08 PM
    ...
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