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 Topic: A question on the Hadiths.

 (Read 637 times)
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  • A question on the Hadiths.
     OP - August 29, 2017, 11:13 AM

    Please forgive yet another foolish question. I can only plead that the subject of Islam is somewhat confusing to me.

    When I discuss some things about Islam, especially the less pleasant ones, I am often told that the problem is from the contents of the Hadiths and not the Koran, and they are therefore not of any great consequence, or are wrong, or are disputed, or some such other distraction. I realise that this may not be an easy question, but just how importantly are the various Hadiths regarded? How much weight do they carry within the religion? Does it matter if one particular verse is agreed on by them all? What if there are significant differences in verses between them (if there is).
  • A question on the Hadiths.
     Reply #1 - August 29, 2017, 12:41 PM

    Please forgive yet another foolish question. I can only plead that the subject of Islam is somewhat confusing to me.


    dear Garth .,   NO QUESTION IS FOOLISH QUESTION  on the questions  about "faiths of FAITH HEADS OF ANY FAITH AND EVERY FAITH ".. So the question of forgiving some one without his/her fault for no good reason does not arise..  anyways on that hadith

    Quote
    When I discuss some things about Islam, especially the less pleasant ones, I am often told that the problem is from the contents of the Hadiths and not the Koran, and they are therefore not of any great consequence, or are wrong, or are disputed, or some such other distraction.

    Ask those idiots  to list all such hadith  "that are not of any great consequence, or are wrong, or are disputed"   and TELL THEM TO RIP THEM FROM PUBLISHED HADITH BOOKS AND BURN THEM ON THE STEP OF MOSQUES that they see between Sand land and land of pure

    Quote
    I realise that this may not be an easy question, but just how importantly are the various Hadiths regarded? How much weight do they carry within the religion? Does it matter if one particular verse is agreed on by them all? What if there are significant differences in verses between them (if there is).

    that question needs a detailed answer/debate so I will take some time to write some thing about that dear Garth..


    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • A question on the Hadiths.
     Reply #2 - August 29, 2017, 01:24 PM

    This is the crux of the problem as i understand it (from an ex-muslim) perspective

    When Muhammed(or whoever), wrote the Quran, he wasnt thinking 4th dimensionally. 
    He each ayah of the quran was normally written to either develop a part of the faith or to deal with a situation that arose around Muhammads life,
    however the situations that Muhammad was responding to in the Quran were not mentioned explicitly in the Quran.
    Also over time Muhammad changed his mind several times during his life, which resulted in conflicting information appearing in the Quran.


    After Muhammad's death, when future generations tried to read the Quran, they hit a few problems. 
    Some ayah contradicted each other
    some ayah were written in such generic terms that they could mean several things.
    Some ayah mentioned rules without giving context to the rules, so interpretation of the Quran became very difficult if not impossible.

    To deal with these problems two different knowledge bases were created, then first was Hadith and the second was a methodology to read and understand the Quran.

    With regards to Hadith, around 150 years after the time of the prophet some scholars started collecting Hadith, but when they did this, they found
    literally hundreds of thousands of Hadith that contradicted each other and the Quran.  So these scholars developed a methodology to categorise the Hadith. 
    The methodology that was developed checked for consistency of the Hadith with Quran, the trustworthiness of the narrator of the Hadith,
    existence of similar Hadith from unrelated individuals etc

    This process generated several volumes of books that are considered Sahih(authentic) Hadith, the most famous of which are: Bukhari, Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawud.

    Without the support of these Hadith the Quran falls apart as an incomprehensible mess of generic sentences with no clear beginning, middle or end.  Ive heard some scholars say, that without the Hadith, the Quran it just a book(i don't know how they manage to keep their faith with that statement).


    So to answer your question, how important are Hadith, I would say that they are essential if you want to understand the main interpretation of Islam in existence today, i.e what you might consider mainstream Islam.

    But when people say something like the problem is not the Quran, but the problem is Hadith, they are  talking shit.  One of the criteria of Hadith classification is that it cannot contradict anything in the Quran. 

    The Quran talks about most if not all difficult topics;
    Slavery, Sexual Slavery, Sexual Slavery with Married Women,child marriage,beating wife,gods punishments, killing unbelievers.

    The only thing that Hadith does is to provide context and embellishments to the core message.

    Muslims cannot accept that any problems exist with the Quran, because they believe the Quran is the literal word of God, and admitting any moral problem with the  Quran is tantamount to apostasy, so they will try to deflect attention somewhere/anywhere else.  The most common deflections are:

    The words of the Quran have been misunderstood, i.e words have been mistranslated, or context has not been understood correctly.
    The true meaning of the Quran is only known by Allah.
    The Hadith are fabricated, or weak so cannot be trusted.  And when they are shown Hadith from a Sahih(authentic) source, they say the Hadith was incorrectly  classified as Sahih, but is infact weak.
    people abused the word of God for their own evil intentions, its not what god intended.

    Hope that helps

    A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible
  • A question on the Hadiths.
     Reply #3 - August 29, 2017, 08:04 PM

    Thanks everyone. That is indeed a great help. So, the Hadiths are a little like the "True Scotsman" argument then.

    If I may...

    Him: "All Scotsmen eat porridge for breakfast."

    Me. "I am a Scotsman of 10 generations and I don't eat porridge for breakfast."

    Him: "Then you are not a true Scotsman."

    aside:- May I use your excellent post elsewhere? (Not claiming it for my own, of course)
  • A question on the Hadiths.
     Reply #4 - August 29, 2017, 09:02 PM

    I feel honoured if you think my post was worthy of being repeated.

    I also have a blog where I discuss some difficult issues in the quran, if you are interested.

    https://abudawudnoor.wordpress.com

    A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible
  • A question on the Hadiths.
     Reply #5 - August 29, 2017, 11:07 PM

    One important point with respect to Hadith:

    Several schools don't rely on the Six Canonical Books as much as the Saudis would like us to think. Imam Malik relied mostly on Madinese 'amal - the consensus practice of al-Madina. Imam Abu Hanifa relied on the practice of the Companions in Iraq. The Malikis follow Malik, and the Hanafis follow Abu Hanifa, each with their own schools of successors, and their own books. Which books aren't Hadith books as such, although they do have hadiths in them.

    And then, of course, there are the Shi'ites. They have their own books, based on their own Imams, and historically they've refused Sunni books outright. After all if Mu'awiya and Marwan weren't caliphs and are currently roasting in hell, why should we trust their legal rulings.
  • A question on the Hadiths.
     Reply #6 - August 30, 2017, 10:38 AM

    It seems to me then that the Christian religions, or sects if that is preferred, have more in common with the Muslim religions that might first be thought. The differing Christian sects choose those parts of the bible that best suits their purpose and place what interpretation upon them they choose. I am somewhat surprised, but not that much, to find that it appears to be the same system within Islam.

    Humpty Dumpty said it all, in "Through the Looking Glass" I think. If I may...

    Quote
    "I don't know what you mean by 'glory'," Alice said.

    Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't- till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'"

    "But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.

    "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less."

    "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

    "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master-that's all."

    Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper some of them- particularly verbs: they're the proudest- adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs- however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"


    But thanks again for your input.
  • A question on the Hadiths.
     Reply #7 - August 31, 2017, 01:25 AM

    Quote
    It seems to me then that the Christian religions, or sects if that is preferred, have more in common with the Muslim religions that might first be thought.


    I was taught, in a British school, from a Muslim-authored textbook, that the Muslims don't have sects. They just have different schools of thought.

    It was an Anglican school. SMFH.

    They should have prescribed us George Orwell to read instead.
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