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 Topic: Halal-only Menus

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  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #60 - September 14, 2010, 09:08 PM
    Quote from: Cool Canadian on September 14, 2010, 12:36 AM
    lol. I'm Polish, and pork is SUPER important to my family. Mmmmm, pork is awesome grin12


    Mmmm... yeah.  grin12 The only thing I won't eat is tripe. Yuck. The Italians and Irish (the other half of the family) are big on that.
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on September 26, 2010, 11:19 AM
    Is your grammar defective? Just askin'.


    "The wound is the place where the Light enters you." - Rumi

  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #61 - September 15, 2010, 01:21 AM
    Quote from: Q-Man
    God you are so fuckin thick--


    From you, I'll take that as a compliment.

    Quote
    one is a private proprietor the other is the state,


    I believe that Asda, the UK supermarket chain in question, is one of a number of UK private companies who have acceded to Muslim requests to permit the wearing of headscarfs by female Muslim employees. I assume then that if they had not in fact made this concession you would not regard them as practicing "discrimination". Is that correct?
     
    Quote
    I've killed my own food,


    What have you killed and how?


    Quote
    Killing animals will never be made clinically perfect and painless.


    True. But we are talking about MINIMIZING the suffering of animals used for food. You have a cat I believe. When the time comes to say goodbye to it, how are you going to have it done? Wring its neck? Cut its throat? Blow its brains out? Leave it to die in distress?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #62 - September 15, 2010, 04:31 AM
    DH, now you're having issues with employee's being able to wear headscarves? Is wearing a headscarf preventing Muslim women from serving customers and imparting a professional service in a supermarket? If it did then I could see your point but it doesn't. Help me out here.
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #63 - September 15, 2010, 05:16 AM
    Quote from: DH on September 15, 2010, 01:21 AM
    True. But we are talking about MINIMIZING the suffering of animals used for food. You have a cat I believe. When the time comes to say goodbye to it, how are you going to have it done? Wring its neck? Cut its throat? Blow its brains out? Leave it to die in distress?


    I will have it euthanized at a vet like any responsible pet owner would, which is not really an option for slaughter due to (1) the risk of poisoning people, (2) cost. If that option were not available to me, I'd shoot him in the head-- again not an option for mass slaughter due to expense.

    But this whole comparison of a pet to an animal bred or hunted for food is one I've been hearing for years from vegetarians/vegans and it's entirely spurious. Pets, for the most part nowadays, are kept for the companionship of the owner, thus the relationship between humans and animals commonly kept as domesticated pets is entirely different, both materially and emotionally, from the relationship between humans and animals commonly bred or hunted for food.
    fuck you
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #64 - September 15, 2010, 05:27 AM

    Are Muslims against using this method ?

    Quote
    A captive bolt pistol (also variously known as a cattle gun, stunbolt gun, bolt gun, or stunner) is a device used for stunning animals prior to slaughter. Proper stunning is essential to prevent the pain and suffering of the animal during the bleeding (exsanguination) process (which is itself necessary to prevent meat spoilage) during butchering. The principle behind captive bolt stunning is a forceful strike on the forehead using a bolt to induce unconsciousness. The bolt may or may not destroy part of the brain.

    The bolt itself is a heavy rod made of non-rusting alloys, such as stainless steel. It is held in position inside the barrel of the stunner by means of rubber washers. The bolt is usually not visible in a stunner in good condition. The bolt is actuated by a trigger pull and is propelled forward by compressed air or by the discharge of a blank round ignited by a firing pin. After striking a shallow but forceful blow on the forehead of the animal, spring tension causes the bolt to recoil back into the barrel. The use of penetrating captive bolts has been discontinued in the commercial arena.

    The captive bolt pistol was invented by Dr. Hugo Heiss, former director of a slaughterhouse in Straubing, Germany


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_bolt_pistol
    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #65 - September 15, 2010, 05:36 AM
    Many Halal butchers by me specifically state on their signs that the animals are 'Not Stunned'.

    Stunning would probably mean that the animal would not bleed properly to death and hence blood remains in the system, which is haram.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #66 - September 15, 2010, 08:03 AM
    Quote from: Paloma on September 15, 2010, 05:27 AM
    Are Muslims against using this method ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_bolt_pistol


    Some are, some aren't. Like a lot of things depends on how devout/fundamentalist the person you're talking to is.
    fuck you
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #67 - September 15, 2010, 09:47 AM
    @DH

    No one is being forced to purchase or consume halal meat. It is legal to purchase and consume in the UK. If school dinners in a particular area are going halal-by-default due to popular demand then it is up to parents who object to urge their children to take the vegetarian option on offer or provide home-prepared meals. This was formerly the situation for the parents who wanted their children to eat halal meat when it wasn't on offer. If the majority in a given area were vegetarian and wanted the default menu options to be vegetarian I wouldn't see the problem, either. If people don't like the popular choice they can always provide their own alternatives.

    I doubt that the average consumer has a particular objection to halal meat, given arguable public ignorance of animal welfare and slaughter in general. Unless halal meat is made illegal or its adoption as default option in public services is challenged on the grounds that a majority of public service recipients object to it on ethical or religious grounds then it seems slightly pointless to whine about it unless the agenda is not purely an ethical one. Arguments about private sector product offerings are a diversion from the original issue which hint more strongly at that thinly veiled agenda, your problem appearing more fundamentally the visibility of Muslim culture in general.

    Based upon your arguments here and in other threads you come across as rather fearful of Muslims.
    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #68 - September 15, 2010, 09:58 AM
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 15, 2010, 09:47 AM
    Based upon your arguments here and in other threads you come across as rather fearful of Muslims.


    I'm not sure if its xenophobia being camouflaged as fear thats really going on here.  

    DH rarely talks about subjects outside of political Islam e.g. theology etc  It would be interesting to hear his views on English culture, the British flag etc (he has expressed views on banning all immigration and how immigration being benificial to a society is part of a left-wing conspiracy)
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #69 - September 15, 2010, 10:47 AM
    I know that one of problem in France with the halal meat (I don't mean that they find in some product pork, witch is true and not a joke; obviously nobody died, al Hamdulillah Cheesy) is that a part of the money goes to Islamic organizations or mosques and that's why people generally don't want to buy or introduce halal meet in most schools. Don't know how it is in england.

    Do anyone have an idea?
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #70 - September 15, 2010, 10:57 AM
    Halal meat can be purchased easily through private butchers and some wholesalers in the UK. When I was Muslim I asked a couple of reputable traditional English butchers to source halal meat and they did so without much hassle, at one I found that they were already selling some halal meat without even knowing so as the boxes were clearly stamped from a halal supplier (and this was in an area with hardly any Muslims).

    Purchasing at wholesalers I found that much of the halal produce was imported and thus cheaper than UK stock which is perhaps the actual reason school caterers on limited budgets might consider switching and then touting it as a way of getting more Muslim children eating school dinners.
    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #71 - September 15, 2010, 08:37 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on September 15, 2010, 05:16 AM
    But this whole comparison of a pet to an animal bred or hunted for food is one I've been hearing for years from vegetarians/vegans and it's entirely spurious. Pets, for the most part nowadays, are kept for the companionship of the owner, thus the relationship between humans and animals commonly kept as domesticated pets is entirely different, both materially and emotionally, from the relationship between humans and animals commonly bred or hunted for food.

    Do you think your cat has feelings i.e gets scared, cares, loves, feels pain etc?  Do you think this is different to other larger mammals that we eat?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #72 - September 15, 2010, 09:14 PM
    I see where IsLame is coming from, though I'm not a vegetarian (health wise, it isn't good for me since I'm lactose intolerant and HATE eggs).
    Quote from: Mount A Bison on September 26, 2010, 11:19 AM
    Is your grammar defective? Just askin'.


    "The wound is the place where the Light enters you." - Rumi

  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #73 - September 15, 2010, 09:37 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 15, 2010, 08:37 PM
    Do you think your cat has feelings i.e gets scared, cares, loves, feels pain etc? 


    Yes.

    Quote
    Do you think this is different to other larger mammals that we eat?


    Don't give a fuck. Not my cat. I love my cat, I do not love cows, chickens, etc. Humans, as apex predators, have been eating meat for thousands of years, and I'm not gonna start feeling fuckin guilty about it just because our civilization has advanced to the point where we can get fat and analyze such shit on the internet. My cause is my class-- leave the animal liberation stuff to guilty rich white liberals* like Ingrid Newkirk.



    ----------------

    * +thinkfree (he's just white as far as I know) Wink
    fuck you
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #74 - September 16, 2010, 03:07 AM
    Quote from: Q-Man on September 15, 2010, 09:37 PM
    Don't give a fuck. Not my cat. I love my cat, I do not love cows, chickens, etc. Humans, as apex predators, have been eating meat for thousands of years, and I'm not gonna start feeling fuckin guilty about it just because our civilization has advanced to the point where we can get fat and analyze such shit on the internet. My cause is my class-- leave the animal liberation stuff to guilty rich white liberals* like Ingrid Newkirk.

    Read: Might makes right.

    Familiarity is an odd basis for an ethical(?) argument. Personally, I'd try to extend a sense of compassion to any animal, whether a pig trapped on a factory farm or a starving human in some hell-hole excuse for a country. Although the latter obviously takes precedence it doesn't negate my ability to simultaneously give a damn about the former. Yet, I know neither personally.

    The way humans survived thousands of years ago is not something I'd want to use as a moral or ethical guideline for how I choose to live today, primarily because I don't know enough about their moral / ethical systems and secondly their circumstances were probably quite different. The bottom line is that I can survive today whilst inflicting the least possible harm or suffering on non-human animals, and that is what I attempt to do. If I see an unknown cat in my way I don't tread on it as it's only a minor inconvenience for me to avoid causing it suffering. My view with respect to consuming animal flesh is similar. If I were faced with a choice where I needed to eat non-human (or possibly even human) animals to survive then I would consider doing so seriously. Until then... *munches away on his rabbit food*

    Oh, and vegetarianism (and even veganism) predates internets.

    Quote from: Q-Man on September 15, 2010, 09:37 PM
    * +thinkfree (he's just white as far as I know) Wink

    I thought we'd already established that I'm black?

    *opens a can of petit-bourgeois liberalism and smears over MyButBuddy*
    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #75 - September 16, 2010, 03:28 AM
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 16, 2010, 03:07 AM
    Quote
    Quote from: Q-Man on 15 September 2010, 20:37:12
    Don't give a fuck. Not my cat. I love my cat, I do not love cows, chickens, etc. Humans, as apex predators, have been eating meat for thousands of years, and I'm not gonna start feeling fuckin guilty about it just because our civilization has advanced to the point where we can get fat and analyze such shit on the internet. My cause is my class-- leave the animal liberation stuff to guilty rich white liberals* like Ingrid Newkirk.


    Read: Might makes right.

    Familiarity is an odd basis for an ethical(?) argument. Personally, I'd try to extend a sense of compassion to any animal, whether a pig trapped on a factory farm or a starving human in some hell-hole excuse for a country. Although the latter obviously takes precedence it doesn't negate my ability to simultaneously give a damn about the former. Yet, I know neither personally.

    The way humans survived thousands of years ago is not something I'd want to use as a moral or ethical guideline for how I choose to live today, primarily because I don't know enough about their moral / ethical systems and secondly their circumstances were probably quite different. The bottom line is that I can survive today whilst inflicting the least possible harm or suffering on non-human animals, and that is what I attempt to do. If I see an unknown cat in my way I don't tread on it as it's only a minor inconvenience for me to avoid causing it suffering. My view with respect to consuming animal flesh is similar. If I were faced with a choice where I needed to eat non-human (or possibly even human) animals to survive then I would consider doing so seriously. Until then... *munches away on his rabbit food*

    Oh, and vegetarianism (and even veganism) predates internets.

    Quote
    Quote from: Q-Man on 15 September 2010, 20:37:12
    * +thinkfree (he's just white as far as I know)


    I thought we'd already established that I'm black?

    *opens a can of petit-bourgeois liberalism and smears over MyButBuddy*


    ^^ Well said
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #76 - September 16, 2010, 04:07 AM
    Quote from: Q-Man on September 15, 2010, 09:37 PM

    Don't give a fuck. Not my cat. I love my cat, I do not love cows, chickens, etc. Humans, as apex predators, have been eating meat for thousands of years, and I'm not gonna start feeling fuckin guilty about it just because our civilization has advanced to the point where we can get fat and analyze such shit on the internet. My cause is my class-- leave the animal liberation stuff to guilty rich white liberals* like Ingrid Newkirk.


    I am not suggesting everyone becomes vegetarian.

    If you believe that mammals go through this finer range of emotions, then surely you dont want to inflict unnecessary pain & suffering upon them if it can be avoided?  I dont have an issue with hunting, because it occurs on a small scale & we've been doing it since our hunting gathering days. 

    But when it come to the whole scale slaughter (some slaughter houses can butcher about 30,000 pigs or cows a year!) then , if possible, wouldnt you prefer to lessen the pain & suffering if we are going to kill them anyway for dinner?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #77 - September 16, 2010, 04:39 AM
    Think about it, sometime in the future apes rule the planet or we are over taken by some alien being. We become to them what animals are to us. They have superior power and tools to control us. They have no problem eating us. They factory farm us. They say WTF humans have no rights, they are lesser beings who gives a shit about their feelings or how they are treated. We are caged, raped, inseminated, have babies taken away, fed processed foods, and finally transported cramped in containers to the slaughter house to have throats slit bleeding while still alive until hearts can no longer pump. It doesn't matter how much suffering is undergone as long tongues are satisfied and money is made.

    This is what we do to sentient beings everyday just because we can. But maybe if the shoe was on the other foot we would think differently.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #78 - September 16, 2010, 04:51 AM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on September 16, 2010, 04:39 AM
    Think about it, sometime in the future apes rule the planet or we are over taken by some alien being. We become to them what animals are to us. They have superior power and tools to control us. They have no problem eating us. They factory farm us. They say WTF humans have no rights, they are lesser beings who gives a shit about their feelings or how they are treated. We are caged, raped, inseminated, have babies taken away, fed processed foods, and finally transported cramped in containers to the slaughter house to have throats slit bleeding while still alive until hearts can no longer pump. It doesn't matter how much suffering is undergone as long tongues are satisfied and money is made.

    This is what we do to sentient beings everyday just because we can. But maybe if the shoe was on the other foot we would think differently.


    I'd transform myself into an adorable furry love slave to my alien master in the hope they'd give me a warm bed and some of that gourmet kitteh foods. I hear they don't eat you once they've grown somewhat sentimentally attached.  bunny
    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #79 - September 16, 2010, 05:11 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 16, 2010, 04:07 AM
    But when it come to the whole scale slaughter (some slaughter houses can butcher about 30,000 pigs or cows a year!) then , if possible, wouldnt you prefer to lessen the pain & suffering if we are going to kill them anyway for dinner?


    I would and I think it is disgusting that some people are against stunning.

    Also if I had young children, I would certainly object to their being fed halal food in the kindergarten.
    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #80 - September 16, 2010, 05:24 AM
    DH, responses. Please?
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #81 - September 16, 2010, 05:34 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 16, 2010, 04:07 AM
    I am not suggesting everyone becomes vegetarian.

    If you believe that mammals go through this finer range of emotions, then surely you dont want to inflict unnecessary pain & suffering upon them if it can be avoided?  I dont have an issue with hunting, because it occurs on a small scale & we've been doing it since our hunting gathering days.  

    But when it come to the whole scale slaughter (some slaughter houses can butcher about 30,000 pigs or cows a year!) then , if possible, wouldnt you prefer to lessen the pain & suffering if we are going to kill them anyway for dinner?

    I wish we were so advanced in genetic engineering as to be able to create "brainless animals" for meat production.
    Or, tasty animals that feel no pain and can regrow limbs. That way we could just "harvest" them for meat with no actual damage done to them.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #82 - September 16, 2010, 06:16 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on September 16, 2010, 05:34 AM
    I wish we were so advanced in genetic engineering as to be able to create "brainless animals" for meat production.
    Or, tasty animals that feel no pain and can regrow limbs. That way we could just "harvest" them for meat with no actual damage done to them.

    eery concept, but good idea nonetheless
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #83 - September 16, 2010, 06:27 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on September 16, 2010, 05:34 AM
    I wish we were so advanced in genetic engineering as to be able to create "brainless animals" for meat production.
    Or, tasty animals that feel no pain and can regrow limbs. That way we could just "harvest" them for meat with no actual damage done to them.

    There is actually technology in the pipeline which could make this a reality.
    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #84 - September 16, 2010, 08:02 AM
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 16, 2010, 04:51 AM
    I'd transform myself into an adorable furry love slave to my alien master in the hope they'd give me a warm bed and some of that gourmet kitteh foods. I hear they don't eat you once they've grown somewhat sentimentally attached.  bunny


  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #85 - September 16, 2010, 09:42 AM
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 16, 2010, 03:07 AM
    Familiarity is an odd basis for an ethical(?) argument.


    I wasn't trying to make an ethical argument. IsLame asked me a question and I answered it honestly.

    Quote from: a.ghazali on September 16, 2010, 04:39 AM
    Think about it, sometime in the future apes rule the planet or we are over taken by some alien being. We become to them what animals are to us. They have superior power and tools to control us. They have no problem eating us. They factory farm us. They say WTF humans have no rights, they are lesser beings who gives a shit about their feelings or how they are treated. We are caged, raped, inseminated, have babies taken away, fed processed foods, and finally transported cramped in containers to the slaughter house to have throats slit bleeding while still alive until hearts can no longer pump. It doesn't matter how much suffering is undergone as long tongues are satisfied and money is made.

    This is what we do to sentient beings everyday just because we can. But maybe if the shoe was on the other foot we would think differently.



     handjob

    Says the man who has already established that he cares more about the welfare of lower animals than humans.

    Take your stinking paws off me you damn dirty ape!

    Quote from: thinkfree on September 16, 2010, 06:27 AM
    There is actually technology in the pipeline which could make this a reality.


    Where's the fun in that?
    fuck you
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #86 - September 16, 2010, 11:07 AM
    Quote from: Ferrero on September 15, 2010, 04:31 AM
    DH, now you're having issues with employee's being able to wear headscarves? Is wearing a headscarf preventing Muslim women from serving customers and imparting a professional service in a supermarket? If it did then I could see your point but it doesn't. Help me out here.


    The question here was whether or not Q-man would regard failure of a supermarket chain like ASDA to accede to this request as "discrimination".

    Which I am not aware he has addressed.
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #87 - September 16, 2010, 11:18 AM
    Quote from: "thinkfree"
    No one is being forced to purchase or consume halal meat. It is legal to purchase and consume in the UK. If school dinners in a particular area are going halal-by-default due to popular demand then it is up to parents who object to urge their children to take the vegetarian option on offer or provide home-prepared meals. This was formerly the situation for the parents who wanted their children to eat halal meat when it wasn't on offer.


    Do you agree with what "thinkfree" says here Q-man?

    Quote
    Based upon your arguments here and in other threads you come across as rather fearful of Muslims.


    Hmmm....an interesting theory Dr Freud. Perhaps you'd like to psychotherapize me out of my irrational PHOBIA of Muslims. Go ahead - I'm on your couch.

    I was never sodomized as a choirboy by Catholic priests BTW .
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #88 - September 16, 2010, 11:26 AM
    Quote from: Q-Man
    Says the man who has already established that he cares more about the welfare of lower animals than humans.


    Aside from your own egocentric opinion that being a bipedal hominid with a rudimentary mastery of language confers upon you some unique "specialness" why do you deserve to be "cared about" by people who do not know you any more than say....YOUR CAT?  If I had to make a choice between handing your cat over to a vivisectionist for an experiment that MIGHT save your life or ensure your death by not doing so, which option should I choose and why?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Halal-only Menus
     Reply #89 - September 16, 2010, 11:27 AM
    Quote from: Q-Man on September 16, 2010, 09:42 AM
    Says the man who has already established that he cares more about the welfare of lower animals than humans.


    Great counter-attack, Mr. Strawman
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
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