It's been a month since I read your post, so If I remember correctly you are trying to imply that=
1- Islam isn't being implemented correctly.
OK then I will go along Saudi Arabia is a menace and has nothing to do with Islam, Lets imagine Islam was implemented tomorrow exactly as you would like it to, would there be still cutting off hands , lashing adulterers and stoning them?!
I will agree that it would limit theft to a degree, by that I am not pointing to cutting of hands and feet , no I am pointing to "Zaka" if implemented correctly meaning that whether or not such a punishment is implemented, there will always be someone who will steal for whatever other reason than poverty.
I'm not sure I understood you here. Are you saying that if zakah is implemented then stealing would decrease? Or something else?
Now, lets take Adultery the Islamic laws prohibiting it, FAILS miserably logic wise.
OK first, Adultery committed by a married person do you think the state should interfere between a person and his wife? i.e do you think If the husband reports his wife having an affair, along with those 4 witnesses required, she should be put to death (not any death a slow painful death)? <---- if so why?
Or would the world be much better if the husband would either leave her or forgive her?
So, firstly I will just mention what I said before again.
If you remember, I talked about why we believe there is a Creator, and the Qur'an is revelation that can only be from the Creator as well.
Now follow through my logic here. If I am to believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Qur'an is from this Almighty Creator, then it would make sense that the logic of the Creator is infinite.
This means that if the Creator says "implement this!" then the most logical thing is to do so. That's because the logic of the Creator behind any command is infinite, whereas mine is not.
I can attempt to try to understand the Creator's logic, but that means I must try to sit in His shoes. I can't sit in the Creator's shoes because that means I have to create a universe myself and create all of us and then I could understand (which is impossible).
Does this make sense? Even if the Creator had no logic behind something, for me it is incentive enough as a rational man to obey the Creator anyways because the Creator controls what happens to me. I don't want to be tortured. I want to be happy. So i will please this Creator in any way possible because I don't control anything He does.
Make sense?
And on a third note, there is still logic here.
When we talk about the role of a state/government in the life of a person, this is based on many things.
For example, in Islam hudud is implemented in public life ONLY. That means if someone does commit adultry, the accuser has to make this claim in public and that means there must be the witnesses required or they are willing to swear the largest of oaths. This also includes any scientific data that can be used (DNA testing for instance).
Adultry is one of the biggest problems in the west as we both well know. We have organizations like ashley madison (
http://www.ashleymadison.com/) who PROMOTE committing adultery and here it is legal to do so. So yes, the state definitely needs to take a role in this. Otherwise, we might as well throw away marriage and children and family. It is a form of extremism to care only about sex and nothing else. And the woman suffers the most, because she completely loses all the attraction she feels based on emotions and feeling loved =/.
Secondly Adulterers that aren't married, do you think sex is a crime? <---- if so why?
I know what you will say, you will respond by saying Islam says to marry young and so there would be no adultery, so your solution to this situation is to get people to marry as soon as possible holding massive responsibility as young as 16 having children at 17 or something and that girls with an enhanced clitoral sensation should get it reduced?
You know what, I have a better much simpler solution= condoms + OCDs!! <---- if not why?
The typical answer I would probably get from you is that I am arrogant putting myself in Allah's shoe's.
No I don't think you are putting yourself in Allah's shoes at all.
But as I said before, if you believe the Creator said something, what possible reason would you have to reject it? That would be insanity wouldn't it to choose not to do something the All-Powerful Being said? If you don't believe He said it, that's one thing. But if you DO believe it, then the sane rational man would accept and implement it. Make sense?
Now for the rest of what you said here, sex is NOT a crime. In fact, Islam recognizes the needs of human beings and shows the best way to practice it. In Islam, sex earns REWARD. But there is a right way to do things, and a wrong way. In Islam, reward is given if you give the other person the marriage contract which binds and gives security to two people.
And there is a punishment if you either A) violate the contract or B) have sex before marrying because it does not protect either person. You cannot form a family if there is no security, and that is why households in the west become so messed up. Single mothers, single fathers, don't know who's baby is whose, people become extreme in just sex and lose love/family values/societal contribution, etc.
Also, it is the fault of the nonislamic systems that 16 year olds today are so childish. In the older days when islam was properly practiced, children matured very fast. You would have scholars at the ages of 13 and 14. Now a scholar is viewed as some old bearded man.
People are not allowed to mature. As the years have passed, marriage gets pushed further and further up because people are no longer mature enough. This is the fault of how society works around the world now. Islam does not patch up problems on the surface, it fixes the roots.
OK let me ask you this, do you really think that getting profit from a bank saving account is Riba?
Isn't the bank utilizing your money and other's money in projects that would give the bank a multi-million profit return? why is it so wrong to have your share, after all it is your money that allowed that.
Because banks are the biggest economic evil today.
Do you know what interest does? Interest is virtual math. It has NO basis in reality.
Interest increases a certain amount of a static value at the same rate every single period. Let's say I'm a farmer. I get a loan of 1000 dollars. Next year my crops do well so I pay my interest. The year after they don't do so well so I can't, but I still have to.
What happens when a person can't pay interest? Then it just keeps increasing and increasing and increasing. The whole world could burn down, and interest would still keep increasing on loans.
All interest does is give the rich people a sure-fire way to always make money, no matter what happens in the real world. Why do you think we even had the economic crisis? Sub-prime mortgages, which is interest in housing given to people who can't really afford it.
Also, currency here is based on nothing. It used to be based on gold (like how Islam demands) but today it's based on how much the US federal reserve chooses to print in bills. So they can just print money whenever they want.
Who was it that got bailed out first? The banks. And who was it that caused the problem? The banks. Seems like the whole economic system is built to make sure the rich keep their wealth.
Something else, about the caliphate were they true to Islam?
If so why then Invade countries like Mesopotamia, Egypt, the rest of the northern African coast and Spain?
Were these people in war with the caliphate? Or was the caliphate wrong? <---- if so why?
And if your response contained something like: well, they wanted to save them from hell fire and spread the religion of peace, then by all means would you please define peace? and while your at it encompass another method for spreading the religion that doesn't require war during, hmm messengers like god did, perhaps?
Ok so firstly, a khilafah is a contract between the ruler and the people. The people agree to obey the ruler, on the condition that the ruler (khalifah) only implement islamic laws. If he breaches this, than he has breached the contract.
So when it comes to war, which is another topic, war is definitely recognized in islam.
I'm going to give you an example. The US and Europe believe that democracy/freedom/capitalism is the best system to implement. So they either colonize different areas and do so, or they declare war if colonization does not work. The same was true for the USSR and any other land of the past. This is a reality.
Every land needs a system in place to run it. Some systems are corrupt and oppressive. Some are just.
In Islam, we definitely spread Islam to other lands. The first step is always communication with people of power, or with locals. War is a last resort when an oppressive government pushes to repel islam in some way. Islam recognizes the implementation of just governments over people. Islam does not allow muslims to sit by idly while people suffer or face oppression. We are held accountable for everyone, muslim or nonmuslim, and we are supposed to care how they are suffering or what they are going through.
Peace does not mean no-fighting. In that case, most everyone is not peaceful because I'm sure most people would die to defend their family, themselves, perhaps their country, etc. Islam seeks to bring real peace to people, but you'll see the US using the word peace as an empty slogan to invade any country to gain money. The caliphates of the past never did something like this, in fact they preserved the culture of areas (look at greece, turkey, egypt, etc). And look in turn at what the west did to the native Americans.
And yes, I agree show me how this is from God, In any possible rational way and I wouldn't hesitate for a second to revert.
Finally, I would love you to pretend or imagine your a caliph and tell me exactly what's your version of Islam that you would like to implement, cause it seems to me that billions of versions are out there.
As we discuss, I will show you what I can.
The Qur'an is a linguistic miracle. There are many dimensions but I'll share one.
We know that generally in language there are two forms of writing: poetry and prose. Arabic is no different as you probably know.
When we recite the Qur'an or listen to it, we know that it is definitely not prose since there is a rhythmical pattern.
In the arabic language anything that is poetry fits into one of 16 metrical patters called al bihur. This means that anything that was written before or after the qur'an that was poetry, it fits into one of these 16 metrical patterns. If you were to learn fusha and write poetry you would end up fitting one of those patterns.
The Qur'an is the only arabic poetry in existence that does not fit into one of those metrical patterns. This is a rational anomaly. It is impossible, yet it exists. And no human being is able to write poetry to fit into this new metrical pattern.
Consider it yourself =). There are many other dimensions but I just wanted to share that one as a start.
I did not accept islam until I was completely convinced rationally that it was true. I just want to share and discuss it with you and listen to what you think and feel as well. Sounds fair I hope?
Hey.
So.... do you have any positive evidence of Allah's existence?
Sure. So let's think this through.
We are in agreement that the universe exists.
We are also in agreement that anything we see around us had a cause to it. There is nothing we will point to and say it did not come from somewhere before it. So we always accept cause and effect as a part of this universe.
The universe exists and so we know there are going to be 3 things to be said about that.
1) The Universe has always existed (and hence always will exist)
2) The universe suddenly came to be from nothing
3) the universe came from something else before it
The first claim is not supported by modern science because the claim is that the universe is expanding. Something that is infinite however cannot expand.
Also, if the universe always existed, then time would be infinite which would mean that the time before you and I were born is infinite. If that's true, we would never be born.
The second claim is also not supported, since the only thing that comes from nothing, is nothing.
So it simply stands to reason that rationally the universe came from something before it. What this Creator is and is not, is an entirely different discussion =).
Do this make sense to you?
Topic: Hello