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Re: Hello
Reply #90 - October 19, 2010, 03:16 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on October 19, 2010, 02:57 PM
Sorry, I always seem to confuse people regarding this. I accept evolution as fact - what I'm saying is that current thinking is that evolution theory is the sole mechanism that can explain all that we are - this may be true, but currently, the scientific data to support such a claim does not yet exist. For example, as I mentioned issues such as the evolution of conciousness have yet to be addressed in a satisfactory manner. I also question whether the group survival model can account for the range of human emotions that we posess. In addition detailed step by step molecular accounts of how complex cellular pathways evolved is currently lacking. Evolutionary biologists will probably (one hopes at least) have better descriptions one day, but until then we should be open to the fact that there may be other mechanisms, which of course may well be and probably are scientific, that are involved that modify or complement our current theory in order that these things are more easily explained scientifically.

I think a lot of people misunderstand what the theory of evolution actually is, what it claims to prove or explain, or what the scientific field it belongs to is actually working on. Its important to clarify what we actually mean when we say 'evolution', in particular if we mean simply general 'change over time' applicable to many different fields, or if we specifically mean the current scientific model of understanding about biological diversty, a.k.a, the theory of evolution.

Here's a quick run-down of some clarifications:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3k0dDFxkhM

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Re: Hello
Reply #91 - October 19, 2010, 03:33 PM

Quote
I think a lot of people misunderstand what the theory of evolution actually is, what it claims to prove or explain, or what the scientific field it belongs to is actually working on. Its important to clarify what we actually mean when we say 'evolution', in particular if we mean simply general 'change over time' applicable to many different fields, or if we specifically mean the current scientific model of understanding about biological diversty, a.k.a, the theory of evolution.

Yes, I would agree with you on this - and this is why I accept evolution as fact. But still a lot of people do believe that evolution can account for all life on earth (since life first appeared on earth) and everything that we are - and this is what I feel is open for discussion.

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Re: Hello
Reply #92 - October 19, 2010, 03:38 PM

It does account for the diversity of all biological life, and never claimed to account for anything else. Those who claim the theory of evolution can account for anything besides biological diversity since life began are either misrepresenting it or ignorant of what it actually is.

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Re: Hello
Reply #93 - October 19, 2010, 03:51 PM

Quote
It does account for the diversity of all biological life, and never claimed to account for anything else. Those who claim the theory of evolution can account for anything besides biological diversity since life began are either misrepresenting it or ignorant of what it actually is.

Ok cool. I can live with that and

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Re: Hello
Reply #94 - October 19, 2010, 03:53 PM

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Hello
Reply #95 - October 19, 2010, 04:00 PM

dem junglists be cool

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Re: Hello
Reply #96 - October 19, 2010, 05:20 PM

Quote from: Ishina on October 19, 2010, 03:38 PM
It does account for the diversity of all biological life, and never claimed to account for anything else. Those who claim the theory of evolution can account for anything besides biological diversity since life began are either misrepresenting it or ignorant of what it actually is.

It just occured to me, that the evolution process is for the form but the building blocks are nearly the same meaning the DNA and RNA. So could I say evolution applies only to the form but the substance is more or less universal and constant?
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Re: Hello
Reply #97 - October 20, 2010, 01:10 PM

Well, its too early to say DNA is 'universal' in the broadest sense, until we find or study extraterrestrial life.

Francis Crick, who discovered the structure of DNA, describes it as a 'frozen accident', as in, it could have been a different set of constants that came together besides the ones we are used to. DNA might very well be the only way to 'programme' life, for all we know. But what if other life has developed an entirely different base alphabet or code, or an entirely different mode of transport to the double helix we think of? Its a possiblity.

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Re: Hello
Reply #98 - October 20, 2010, 01:17 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on October 19, 2010, 03:33 PM
Yes, I would agree with you on this - and this is why I accept evolution as fact. But still a lot of people do believe that evolution can account for all life on earth (since life first appeared on earth) and everything that we are - and this is what I feel is open for discussion.

What do you feel it can't account for?
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Re: Hello
Reply #99 - October 20, 2010, 03:18 PM

Evolution can account for all the biological diversity on Earth since life began - and this is what the theory of evolution is supposed to explain. Some people would however try to argue that the theory of evolution itself has explained or has the potential to explain how complex traits originated both at the molecular level (for example a basic example of a complex cellular pathway such as mitosis) or at the physiological level (for example conciousness) - and this is what I feel is open for debate.

The fact is we are very very far from having detailed molecular descriptions of how complex cellular pathways and physiological traits within all biological organisms originated. Now of course I'm not saying that Godidit or anything - I am just stating this fact and think there is a massive amount of scientific progress to be made with regards to these issues.

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Re: Hello
Reply #100 - October 20, 2010, 03:27 PM

Quote from: car313 on October 18, 2010, 06:05 PM
TruthSeeker seems to be anything but.

He/she/It claims to be a Muslim AND claims to be seeking truth. Has He/She/It not already found it in Islam and the Holy Koran?

There's something in every atheist, itching to believe, and something in every believer, itching to doubt. --Mignon McLaughlin

...
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Re: Hello
Reply #101 - October 20, 2010, 03:51 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on October 20, 2010, 03:18 PM
Evolution can account for all the biological diversity on Earth since life began - and this is what the theory of evolution is supposed to explain. Some people would however try to argue that the theory of evolution itself has explained or has the potential to explain how complex traits originated both at the molecular level (for example a basic example of a complex cellular pathway such as mitosis) or at the physiological level (for example conciousness) - and this is what I feel is open for debate.

The fact is we are very very far from having detailed molecular descriptions of how complex cellular pathways and physiological traits within all biological organisms originated. Now of course I'm not saying that Godidit or anything - I am just stating this fact and think there is a massive amount of scientific progress to be made with regards to these issues.

Arent you contradicting yourself here?

You say you agree with evolution & you believe it rightly accounts for the diversity of life.

Do you believe the differences at a molecular & physiological level are not part of the diversity of life?

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Re: Hello
Reply #102 - October 20, 2010, 04:11 PM

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Arent you contradicting yourself here?

No. You need to more carefully read what I write and then think about it a little more carefully

Quote
You say you agree with evolution & you believe it rightly accounts for the diversity of life.

Do you believe the differences at a molecular & physiological level are not part of the diversity of life?

I agree that the thoery of evolution can fully acount for how all life on earth diversified. However the theory does not account for how the complex molecular/cellular pathways and physiological systems primarily originated

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Re: Hello
Reply #103 - October 20, 2010, 04:32 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on October 20, 2010, 04:11 PM
I agree that the thoery of evolution can fully acount for how all life on earth diversified. However the theory does not account for how the complex molecular/cellular pathways and physiological systems primarily originated

Part and parcel of the theory of evolution is random mutation. So it does explain how it occurs, even if it doesnt detail the exact order & sequence.

So let me put it another way. You claim to accept the Theory of evolution.

Do you accept that complex molecular/cellular pathways and physiological systems came about through evolutionary random mutation of simple/basic systems, and similary those mutated from even more rudimentary systems?

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Re: Hello
Reply #104 - October 20, 2010, 04:37 PM

What abuyunus is trying to say is...........Goddidit

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Re: Hello
Reply #105 - October 20, 2010, 04:42 PM

Im not sure if thats what he's trying to say, not sure even he does lol- I wonder if he is wondering whether its some evolutionary-creationist hotch-potch, perhaps crevolutionism?

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Re: Hello
Reply #106 - October 20, 2010, 04:56 PM

Quote
Part and parcel of the theory of evolution is random mutation. So it does explain how it occurs, even if it doesnt detail the exact order & sequence.

we're talking about much more than order and sequence - but anyway, beleive what you want dude

Quote
Do you accept that complex molecular/cellular pathways and physiological systems came about through evolutionary random mutation of simple/basic systems, and similary those mutated from even more rudimentary systems?

It's possible of course, but the scientific data to support such a claim does not exist - and we are currently no where near to having these descriptions: so why do you insist on trying to force me to accept it??

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Re: Hello
Reply #107 - October 20, 2010, 04:56 PM

Quote from: GodIsNotGreat on October 20, 2010, 04:37 PM
What abuyunus is trying to say is...........Goddidit

lol

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Re: Hello
Reply #108 - October 20, 2010, 05:02 PM

Quote from: IsLame on October 20, 2010, 04:42 PM
Im not sure if thats what he's trying to say, not sure even he does lol- I wonder if he is wondering whether its some evolutionary-creationist hotch-potch, perhaps crevolutionism?

actually i do - but it's dificut to explain to someone who has a poor grasp of the actual science

btw, no evolutionary biologists would disagree with what i am saying. in fact you're the only one on here who appears to

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Re: Hello
Reply #109 - October 20, 2010, 05:04 PM

How do you think conciousness came about?
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Re: Hello
Reply #110 - October 20, 2010, 05:08 PM

damned if i know

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Re: Hello
Reply #111 - October 20, 2010, 05:09 PM

Quote
btw, no evolutionary biologists would disagree with what i am saying. in fact you're the only one on here who appears to

Are you a believer in divinely guided evolution?

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Re: Hello
Reply #112 - October 20, 2010, 05:13 PM

no - i'm agnostic. i.e. there could well be (and probably is) a scientific explanation to everything we've been discussing

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Re: Hello
Reply #113 - October 20, 2010, 05:14 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on October 20, 2010, 05:08 PM
damned if i know

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Re: Hello
Reply #114 - October 20, 2010, 05:16 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on October 20, 2010, 05:13 PM
no

Progress. Nice.
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Re: Hello
Reply #115 - October 20, 2010, 05:17 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on October 20, 2010, 05:13 PM
no - i'm agnostic. i.e. there could well be (and probably is) a scientific explanation to everything we've been discussing

OK. So what does the creationist side of your beliefs involve?

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Re: Hello
Reply #116 - October 20, 2010, 05:19 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on October 20, 2010, 04:56 PM
we're talking about much more than order and sequence - but anyway, beleive what you want dude

It's possible of course, but the scientific data to support such a claim does not exist - and we are currently no where near to having these descriptions: so why do you insist on trying to force me to accept it??

I am not forcing you to accept anything, I just want you to stop making one claim like accepting evolution, and then saying we do not have scientific data to support such claims

Mutation explains all the biodiversity you see, that includes all levels of life. There are no ifs & buts. You either accept that as an evolutionist or you dont.

Your keeping your toes wiggling in the Holy waters of abbe-zamzam & at the same time in the clear waters of science, and its a headache to read.

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Re: Hello
Reply #117 - October 20, 2010, 05:23 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on October 20, 2010, 03:18 PM
Some people would however try to argue that the theory of evolution itself has explained or has the potential to explain how complex traits originated both at the molecular level or at the physiological level

Don't listen to those people. They don't know what they are talking about. They are as guilty as any creationist of misrepresenting the truth about the theory of evolution. How life originated to begin with and how life diversified since then are two entirely different realms of science.

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Re: Hello
Reply #118 - October 20, 2010, 05:26 PM

Quote from: Cheetah on October 20, 2010, 05:17 PM
OK. So what does the creationist side of your beliefs involve?

i do not have creationist beliefs as such (at least not anymore)

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Re: Hello
Reply #119 - October 20, 2010, 05:27 PM

Quote from: IsLame on October 20, 2010, 05:19 PM
I am not forcing you to accept anything, I just want you to stop making one claim like accepting evolution, and then saying we do not have scientific data to support such claims

Mutation explains all the biodiversity you see, that includes all levels of life. There are no ifs & buts. You either accept that as an evolutionist or you dont.

Your keeping your toes wiggling in the Holy waters of abbe-zamzam & at the same time in the clear waters of science, and its a headache to read.

ok

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