So why cant we cal that unjust & barbaric too? These are man-made laws anyway, I raise the bar with an omnicient being.
Well the problem is with your definition of what is unjust and barbaric.
We can agree that if I rationally prove without a shadow of a doubt that this universe had a Creator, then it would follow that whatever this Creator commands must be obeyed. This is because the Creator created everything, and thus is the only one that can set a standard for anything whatsoever. However, if there is no belief in a Creator, then it can become a matter of personal judgment.
It would be irrational to believe in a Creator, then talk about how the Creator creates unjust laws. This is a contradiction of terms.
However, the United States claims no such thing, they are secular/capitalistic and call on the view of human beings.
The first discussion is always then one of whether there is a Creator to the universe or not, and then did the Creator interact or communicate with anything created or not. If both are not true, then the debate would be based on what human beings perceive as best.
So as ex-muslims, do you believe we should be killed?
Sahih Bukhari 4:260
The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.’
I think you missed my point about the example. Firstly its scientific fact that we come from parents/grandparents etc, its not scientific fact that Allah exists. Hence I want more evidence in this case scenario.
Secondly like I said earlier, I am an agnostic, so I would be happy to question if there is a creator/ I have no grandparents or not. My point is not if there is a creator or not, but how do you know that this creator sent this book, and this creator's name is Allah. Because the Quran & your ancestors told you so?
The ex-muslim part is grossly confused. It doesn't work like that at all, in fact one evidence does not constitute islam nor is it binding or implemented until the whole system is in place.
What I mean is that this is only one evidence, and there are a number of contexts. I think we should make a new thread on that in another place, because it's a side topic.
So you said that it is a scientific fact that we come from parents grandparents. Where is the fact? Simply saying so doesn't make it a fact, what is your proof? And how do you know there is no proof for a Creator? That is what we should discuss first then.
I do not believe in the Qur'an as some inherited tradition. My belief in islam is based upon rationality and simply reality. Belief in anything comes from some proof, and the proof must be binding otherwise it isn't proof.
You say you are agnostic. But first I want to ask, what is your position on the creation of the universe? Did it come from nothing? Was it always there? Or was it created?
I don't fully understand your question. As for the "debate" over evolution - there isn't one. Evolution is a scientific fact. It's has mountains of evidence supporting it: fossil record, vestigiality, distribution of species and biomolecular evidence. There isn't a credible biologist in the world who disputes the theory of evolution. You say that you've explored alternate viewpoints and that your research about faiths has been intellectual. I find it extremely suspect that you did not explore the veracity of the creation myth of Adam & Eve. Evolution is a powerful argument against literalist interpretations of the Qur'an. It's a shame that someone who went on an "intellectual journey" didn't bother to explore the reality of evolution by natural selection.
Well when I say I didn't study evolution, I meant I didn't study it in detail. The basic point of the theory still goes down to cause and effect. Because, even if we talk about something living evolving, then where did the first evolution come from? Out of nothing? Did they evolve infinitely backwards? Or did nonliving things suddenly become living?
Natural selection is a different topic altogether though, because evolution is taking about something a little bit more different. Natural selection can be applied in a different way, such that whatever has the ability and the skills triumphs over whatever does not. Now if you claim it is somehow random, I dispute that claim, since that contradicts the second law of thermodynamics in physics. But if you claim that there is a structure and design to it outside the bounds of the very thing, I can agree that natural selection has merit.
Topic: Hello