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Theme Changer

 Topic: introduction (mark II)

 (Read 9003 times)
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  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #30 - September 05, 2010, 09:09 PM

    Well there's a difference between believing metaphysical miracles occurred, and with explanations of common events which contradict science. Just because Allah subhana wa ta'ala always causes thinks to react in one way, doesn't mean he can change this. This isn't really that hard for me to believe. What I'm having trouble with is a hadeeth which allegedly explains common events in a way that contradicts science.

    In Tefsir ibn Kathir, in the tefsir of surah Imran, the 90th verse give or take, you'll find the following hadeeth:

    Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "A group of Jews came to Allah's Prophet and said, `Talk to us about some things we will ask you and which only a Prophet would know.' He said, `Ask me about whatever you wish. However, give your pledge to Allah, similar to the pledge that Ya`qub took from his children, that if I tell you something and you recognize its truth, you will follow me in Islam.' They said, `Agreed.' The Prophet said, `Ask me about whatever you wish.' They said, `Tell us about four matters: 1. What kinds of food did Isra'il prohibit for himself 2. What about the sexual discharge of the woman and the man, and what role does each play in producing male or female offspring 3. Tell us about the condition of the unlettered Prophet during sleep, 4. And who is his Wali (supporter) among the angels' The Prophet took their covenant that they will follow him if he answers these questions, and they agreed. He said, `I ask you by He Who sent down the Tawrah to Musa, do you not know that Isra'il once became very ill When his illness was prolonged, he vowed to Allah that if He cures His illness, he would prohibit the best types of drink and food for himself. Was not the best food to him camel meat and the best drink camel milk' They said, `Yes, by Allah.' The Messenger said, `O Allah, be Witness against them.' The Prophet then said, `I ask you by Allah, other than Whom there is no deity (worthy of worship), Who sent down the Tawrah to Musa, do you not know that man's discharge is thick and white and woman's is yellow and thin If any of these fluids becomes dominant, the offspring will take its sex and resemblance by Allah's leave. Hence, if the man's is more than the woman's, the child will be male, by Allah's leave. If the woman's discharge is more than the man's, then the child will be female, by Allah's leave.' They said, `Yes.' He said, `O Allah, be Witness against them.' He then said, `I ask you by He Who sent down the Tawrah to Musa, do you not know that the eyes of this unlettered Prophet sleep, but his heart does not sleep' They said, `Yes, by Allah!' He said, `O Allah, be Witness.' They said, `Tell us now about your Wali among the angels, for this is when we either follow or shun you.' He said, `My Wali (who brings down the revelation from Allah) is Jibril, and Allah never sent a Prophet, but Jibril is his Wali.' They said, `We then shun you. Had you a Wali other than Jibril, we would have followed you.' On that, Allah, the Exalted revealed,
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #31 - September 05, 2010, 09:22 PM

    Well there's a difference between believing metaphysical miracles occurred, and with explanations of common events which contradict science.

    Modernist Muslims think everything is a metaphor.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #32 - September 05, 2010, 09:25 PM

    No, no, not metaphore, but metaphysical (principles of reality transcending those of any particular science)
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #33 - September 05, 2010, 09:34 PM

    I misread.

    So what principles of reality apply to miracles?

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #34 - September 05, 2010, 09:36 PM


    Aaarrrggghhh  Roll Eyes

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  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #35 - September 05, 2010, 09:41 PM

    Oh for crying out loud buttersnips I didn't came here to have this kind of narrow minded debates of wheter or not it's technically possible or plausible for God to make something occur outside the laws of physics.
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #36 - September 05, 2010, 11:21 PM

    I just wanted to let you know that I really empathize with you and what you are going through. I encourage you to see the good in the fact that your wife left after such a short time. My marriage lasted almost 20 years and there are 4 kids in the middle of the break up. And seeing that you are going through a questioning period, it's probably a lot better that you don't have the social pressure of a Muslim spouse swaying you.

    It is hard to be on the fence. I sat there for years in fact on some level. So better than going through such mental torture, I suggest you get into research mode and really see what it is out there. Here's an article for you to read on Islam and science.

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/quran/samples-of-quranic-contradictions-inconsistencies-and-errors/

    I hope you find the information as useful as I did. The hadith can be tossed aside when in doubt, but the Quran is another story. It is claimed to be protected and perfect, so if there is even one mistake in it, and there are many, then there is something for you to hold your hat on.

    I understand the fear and the uncertainty, and I can also say 2 1/2 years later and despite the havoc that leaving Islam caused in my life, that I don't regret it for a second. There really was no other option once the reality of the imperfect Quran hit me in the face. My life is so much better now, and it is wonderful to know that there is no brutal Allah of the Quran out there.

    Please do not hesitate to contact me if you wish to talk more personally. It would be my priviledge to share and support you in your search.

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #37 - September 05, 2010, 11:43 PM

    Hi newsoul,
    Actually, if you look for refutations of those and simular arguments you'll see that most of these are just misinterpretations based on lousy translations, and other don't actually contradict science if you dig a bit deeper. But like I said, I didn't come here to start another debate thread.
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #38 - September 06, 2010, 09:27 PM

    Hi everyone
    Small update
    Today, I had to make a small roadtrip to my birth-town to get a copy of my birth-certificate. In the car I put on the radio and listened to music the whole time. I've trimmed my beard down to like 3 mm. I still fasted and prayed, still believe in the qur'an, but I can't shake the feeling that some people hijacked Islam with all their hadeeths and stuff...
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #39 - September 06, 2010, 09:32 PM

    Hi AF,

    Today I cried. Just like that. Islam sucks. Life sucks, too.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #40 - September 06, 2010, 10:05 PM

    Hi everyone
    Small update
    Today, I had to make a small roadtrip to my birth-town to get a copy of my birth-certificate. In the car I put on the radio and listened to music the whole time. I've trimmed my beard down to like 3 mm. I still fasted and prayed, still believe in the qur'an, but I can't shake the feeling that some people hijacked Islam with all their hadeeths and stuff...

    Have you read this thread http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10465.25

    In any case why must you believe in the hadith? 

    There are muslims like Khalifa'ites & AbuY he believe in the Quran-only version of Islam, why cant you do that rather than flirting with apostacy?

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  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #41 - September 06, 2010, 10:07 PM

    Hi AF,

    Today I cried. Just like that. Islam sucks. Life sucks, too.

    I'd give you one of the emoticon hugs, but I fear you wouldnt want it.



























    Sod it, here's one anyway   far away hug   parrot

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  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #42 - September 06, 2010, 10:23 PM

    Hi everyone
    Small update
    Today, I had to make a small roadtrip to my birth-town to get a copy of my birth-certificate. In the car I put on the radio and listened to music the whole time. I've trimmed my beard down to like 3 mm.

    You're well on your way. Afro

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #43 - September 06, 2010, 10:49 PM

    Why loss of hadeeth is making me loose faith in the rest as well. Well, without hadeeth there's not much left, the Qur'an only gives general guidelines. Perhaps that is enough, but still, the qur'an says to follow the example of the Prophet. But how can we know that other then trough hadeeth. Also, why would God put that in the Qur'an if he knew in advance that the hadeeth wouldn't be trustworthy?
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #44 - September 06, 2010, 10:54 PM

    ..

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  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #45 - September 06, 2010, 10:58 PM

    Why loss of hadeeth is making me loose faith in the rest as well. Well, without hadeeth there's not much left, the Qur'an only gives general guidelines. Perhaps that is enough, but still, the qur'an says to follow the example of the Prophet. But how can we know that other then trough hadeeth. Also, why would God put that in the Qur'an if he knew in advance that the hadeeth wouldn't be trustworthy?

    True.  I've heard scholars say many times that Hadith is necessary in Islam.  For example, Qur'an mentions Prayer/Salah but not how it should be performed exactly.  All that is specified in the Hadith.
    Anyway, if Quran-only Muslims like abuyunus2 want to reject all Hadith, who am I to tell them what they should believe? Smiley

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #46 - September 06, 2010, 11:00 PM

    Why loss of hadeeth is making me loose faith in the rest as well. Well, without hadeeth there's not much left, the Qur'an only gives general guidelines. Perhaps that is enough, but still, the qur'an says to follow the example of the Prophet. But how can we know that other then trough hadeeth. Also, why would God put that in the Qur'an if he knew in advance that the hadeeth wouldn't be trustworthy?

    Well its also in the sahih hadith that muslims shouldnt trust accounts about the prophet. 

    lol @ sahih hadith had the audacity to say that when thats exactly what it does.

    As the hadith came 200yrs after the prophet, then what were muslims to use in the meantime?

    I think it all lends weight to Quran-onlies & many ex-muslims theories, that the prophet was giving a message to people at the time & they were meant to follow his example directly.  I dont think Muhammed ever thought it would get as big as it did, & his ambition were to unite Arabia under what he believed to be the perfect society & what he thought God wanted.


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  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #47 - September 06, 2010, 11:01 PM

    -
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #48 - September 06, 2010, 11:03 PM

    Why loss of hadeeth is making me loose faith in the rest as well. Well, without hadeeth there's not much left, the Qur'an only gives general guidelines. Perhaps that is enough, but still, the qur'an says to follow the example of the Prophet. But how can we know that other then trough hadeeth. Also, why would God put that in the Qur'an if he knew in advance that the hadeeth wouldn't be trustworthy?


    See that is the crux of the issue, would god in his infinite wisdom produce a book saying follow the example of the prophet without say a section describing the life of Mohammad? Without this I am told using the Qu'ran only leads to a very plain framework to work from, as some of the traditions are described in the Hadith, such as prayer rituals etc. So that either leads you to think either the Qu'ran is not divine in origin or that god isn't what he is cracked up to be, OR that he wishes you to think about your belief and make rational decisions, from your own deductions on things of good and bad and that the Qu'ran should be a book which leads you to question life, not a book to follow to the letter.
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #49 - September 06, 2010, 11:57 PM

    Let's not turn this into a debate thread. Smiley  Abdul-Fattah needs some time and space (and indeed, comfort) at the moment. hugs

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #50 - September 07, 2010, 04:24 AM

    Hi newsoul,
    Actually, if you look for refutations of those and simular arguments you'll see that most of these are just misinterpretations based on lousy translations, and other don't actually contradict science if you dig a bit deeper. But like I said, I didn't come here to start another debate thread.


    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #51 - September 07, 2010, 04:35 AM

    As with all arguments, there are going to be attempts to counter them. If you have a source for those in question, I'd like to read it. There are people so hellbent (pardon the pun!) on finding ways out of their cognitive dissonance that they will stretch to great lengths to make it all right. And maybe that's where you are right now and it's understandable. Maybe you need some time to digest and contemplate.

    One recent example I've seen is that one of the meanings of "daraba" is to make love to, so when the Quran is translated as "hit them" (your wives) it really means make love to them. Not lying! Cheesy So take care to explore both sides of the argument thoroughly on these "bad translations". It's nice to have that as a fall back when we are scared and don't want to lose faith, but some ayahs are just too clear to be mistranslations.


    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."~Steven Weinberg
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #52 - March 24, 2011, 03:48 AM

    So I guess he is still a muslim?
  • Re: introduction (mark II)
     Reply #53 - March 24, 2011, 09:43 AM

    Abdul-Fattah, I am sure it is a very emotional reason... but would you really think that a good god would destroy relationships, love between people, joy, just for the sake of following some set of rules like eating with right hand, entering toilet with left foot, etc.? This would be more important to him then a happy heart for the humans? Do you think that you really cannot enjoy life? Look at animals, why can they? But we can't? For what end, to what good?

    I was in exactly the opposite situation: my ex-husband left me after being married for 1,5 years because I apostated. This in the end was one of the reasons for deciding that one hundred percent islam is false, my main reason being non-emotional: science and evolution! But... for me a god who is perfect would never stand for destruction or separating people from each other, he would stand for building and nurturing, bringing people closer.

    Besides all this, I recognize a lot of what you are saying: trying all the time to reconcile all the ahadith and doubts they raise with the world and the beliefs you have. In the end with me it all fell apart because I realised that the world should be whole, why so much doubts over things, a god would create things logical, and not put us into endless mindstruggle over what is the correct interpretation of a hadith to make it somewhat reconcilable with your human morals. I realised that all this struggle is in vain: you know in your heart what is right.

    But... unfortunately I also know how hard the decision can be... why? Because you are 'programmed' to believe, you want to hold on to your beliefs so badly (unconciously). Now my struggle seems very ridiculous, I can see clearly how much bullshit it is and that it ISN'T reconcilable with morals, but it took me a long time!
    Good luck in the process.
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