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 Topic: The Miraculous Nature of the Qur'an - For Screwball

 (Read 5360 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The Miraculous Nature of the Qur'an - For Screwball
     OP - August 27, 2010, 10:05 AM

    Hi Screwball,

    To start this discussion, perhaps you'd like to have a look at this video and let me know if there is anything you disagree with or make any points you wish. I will get back when I have a moment.

    Peace Smiley

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAVrmZVgH78
  • Re: The Miraculous Nature of the Qur'an - For Screwball
     Reply #1 - August 27, 2010, 10:46 AM

    Greetings Hassan, I wish nothing but the best for you and your family. (my name is Muawiyah btw)

    That is an interesting video...as for the apparent mistakes in the Quran I will be visiting a friend today (inshaallah) who is somewhat of an expert on these issues...he is a very humble person (I should learn from him lol) would you mind discussing the specific issues dealt with in the video with him?

    If not atleast let me consult with him and then get back to you  Tongue

    But in the meantime I would like to ask you a couple questions about the challenge of reproducing the quran.

    1. Do you feel that there exists today a surah created by man that compares to the quran? if so could you please post it?

    2. what do you feel would be an accurate and objective reproduction...i.e if somebody copies the exact grammatical syntax of a quranic surah but replaces the words I would not consider this to be a "reproduction"?

    Because it seems that people just attempt to "reverse engineer" the quran and do an extremely poor job of it. And I dont think I'm being biased in this regard.


    PS: you speak very well in your videos mashallah...every time I see them your voice and accent remind me of this song

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leI7sfmipuI
  • Re: The Miraculous Nature of the Qur'an - For Screwball
     Reply #2 - August 27, 2010, 11:25 AM

    1. Do you feel that there exists today a surah created by man that compares to the quran? if so could you please post it?

    2. what do you feel would be an accurate and objective reproduction...i.e if somebody copies the exact grammatical syntax of a quranic surah but replaces the words I would not consider this to be a "reproduction"?


    Hi Muawiyah Smiley

    In reply to both questions, I don't think there is anything like the Qur'an. It is without doubt a very unique book and I don't think it can be imitated - in the sense that no-one can bring another Qur'an that would match it in every way.

    However, that doesn't mean it is perfect - nor does it mean it is from God.

    I don't know if you have had a look at the book I am translating by an Egyptian ex-Muslim, which deals with this very topic, but here is a quote that I entirely agree with:

    "And that challenge, that Allah announced in the Qurʾān for Man & Jinn to bring the like of this Qurʾān,

    “Say: ‘If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qurʾān, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.’” (17:88)

    is absolutely true, but it doesn’t apply only to the Qurʾān, it also applies to every great work. For just as Man & Jinn are not able to produce the like of the Qurʾān, likewise they cannot produce the like of that which Plato brought, nor al-Jahiz, nor al-Tawhidi, nor Dante, nor Goethe, nor Shakespear...

    Great works always contain the fingerprints of their authors. It is a part of their identity. So if it is impossible to imitate these fingerprints, then it is also impossible to imitate these works. Each one is a unique weave that has no match in the works of man and thus establishes its character. Despite this each one is not free from flaws and errors and defects that the critic can be aware of.

    Likewise the Qurʾān. In the work of al-Jahiz and al-Tawhidi is that which far surpasses what is in some of the verses of the Qurʾān, as we shall see, but who dares criticise the Qurʾān?"


    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/docs/My_Ordeal_With_The_Quran/My_Ordeal_With_The_Quran-en-latest.pdf

    In my opinion the Qur'an contains some excellent and very moving passages. Other parts are are average and a few other parts below average and even clumsy and incoherent. There are other works in different languages and genres that imho surpass the Qur'an in many aspects.

    The claim that the Qur'an is of unsurpassable beauty and miraculous nature cannot be objectively proven. As I said in my video, it is like saying:

    "My wife is the most beautiful woman in the world - bring me another like her if you are truthful!"

    Faith in the miraculous nature of the Qur'an is just that - faith.

    It is something that is subjective and not objective and therefore cannot be presented as proof that the Qur'an is from a source other than a human one.
  • Re: The Miraculous Nature of the Qur'an - For Screwball
     Reply #3 - August 27, 2010, 11:33 AM

    btw thanks for the vid - I loved Donovan back in the day  Afro

    Though his accent in that vid sounds Welsh (He was actually a Scotsman who lived in England.)
  • Re: The Miraculous Nature of the Qur'an - For Screwball
     Reply #4 - August 27, 2010, 12:45 PM

    Hi Muawiyah Smiley

    In reply to both questions, I don't think there is anything like the Qur'an. It is without doubt a very unique book and I don't think it can be imitated - in the sense that no-one can bring another Qur'an that would match it in every way.


    I appreciate you atleast mentioning this. I apologize to the forum for my arrogant behaviour in the other thread but I just but I just got frustrated when people who never read it in arabic were saying it was crap ect...

    I just needed to be thrown the smallest of bones  Tongue

    Quote
    However, that doesn't mean it is perfect - nor does it mean it is from God.


    I can see how a non Muslim might be doubtful of it's divine or miraculous nature but we atleast have to respect it.

    Quote
    I don't know if you have had a look at the book I am translating by an Egyptian ex-Muslim, which deals with this very topic, but here is a quote that I entirely agree with:

    "And that challenge, that Allah announced in the Qurʾān for Man & Jinn to bring the like of this Qurʾān,

    “Say: ‘If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qurʾān, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.’” (17:88)

    is absolutely true, but it doesn’t apply only to the Qurʾān, it also applies to every great work. For just as Man & Jinn are not able to produce the like of the Qurʾān, likewise they cannot produce the like of that which Plato brought, nor al-Jahiz, nor al-Tawhidi, nor Dante, nor Goethe, nor Shakespear...

    Great works always contain the fingerprints of their authors. It is a part of their identity. So if it is impossible to imitate these fingerprints, then it is also impossible to imitate these works. Each one is a unique weave that has no match in the works of man and thus establishes its character. Despite this each one is not free from flaws and errors and defects that the critic can be aware of.

    Likewise the Qurʾān. In the work of al-Jahiz and al-Tawhidi is that which far surpasses what is in some of the verses of the Qurʾān, as we shall see, but who dares criticise the Qurʾān?"


    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/docs/My_Ordeal_With_The_Quran/My_Ordeal_With_The_Quran-en-latest.pdf

    In my opinion the Qur'an contains some excellent and very moving passages. Other parts are are average and a few other parts below average and even clumsy and incoherent. There are other works in different languages and genres that imho surpass the Qur'an in many aspects.


    This is interesting and I will definitely give it a look. Wallah misree guys are really tricky. But I honestly thin it would not be difficult to reproduce shakespear. While great literature do you honestly believe it compares to the quran?

    Quote
    The claim that the Qur'an is of unsurpassable beauty and miraculous nature cannot be objectively proven. As I said in my video, it is like saying:

    "My wife is the most beautiful woman in the world - bring me another like her if you are truthful!"

    Faith in the miraculous nature of the Qur'an is just that - faith.

    It is something that is subjective and not objective and therefore cannot be presented as proof that the Qur'an is from a source other than a human one.


    Ok, lets put the word beauty aside and use the word complexity...which is less subjective. Can someone reproduce a book with the linguistic and grammatical complexity of the Quran. (without simply reverse-engineering it...hell even let them reverse engineer it)

    I fully believe that the tools for doing it are there but humans are not capable of making something like it. hence the divine origin (imo anyways)

    I remember being told a story (i forget the name of the person I will look for it inshallah) about a student of hassan al basree...this student was the first muatazilte.

    He had a speech impediment in which he could not pronounce the letter "raa" properly. Some of his collegues sought to embarrass him by making him perform a speech in front of a group thinking they will humiliate him by exposing his impediment.  

    But due to the vast vocabulary and the complex grammar of the Arabic language, incredibly he was able to deliver the speech without using the letter "raa".


    PS: im looking forward to seeing my friend and discussing the points you made in the video
  • Re: The Miraculous Nature of the Qur'an - For Screwball
     Reply #5 - August 27, 2010, 02:01 PM

    This is interesting and I will definitely give it a look. Wallah misree guys are really tricky. But I honestly thin it would not be difficult to reproduce shakespear. While great literature do you honestly believe it compares to the quran?


    I certainly do - though of course no human piece of literature is of consistently high standard - and that includes the Qur'an.

    Here is one of my favourite quotes from Macbeth it is powerful in style and meaning

    "Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
    That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
    And then is heard no more. It is a tale
    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
    Signifying nothing."


    Here is a quote from the Qur'an that is pedestrian in style and banal in meaning:

     يَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الْأَهِلَّةِ قُلْ هِيَ مَوَاقِيتُ لِلنَّاسِ وَالْحَجِّ

    “They ask you concerning the phases of the moon, say:
    They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the
    affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage.” (2:189)


    Also, take another look at the verse I quoted in my video and tell me honestly if you think it is a well constructed or badly constructed sentence?

    مَنْ كَفَرَ بِاللَّهِ مِنْ بَعْدِ إِيمَانِهِ إِلَّا مَنْ أُكْرِهَ وَقَلْبُهُ مُطْمَئِنٌّ بِالْإِيمَانِ وَلَكِنْ مَنْ شَرَحَ بِالْكُفْرِ صَدْرًا فَعَلَيْهِمْ غَضَبٌ مِنَ اللَّهِ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ

    "Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief - save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom." (16:106)

    I can quote innumerable passages from the great literature of mankind throughout the ages, that are just as - if not more beautiful - than the best parts of the Qur'an and I could quote parts of the Qur'an that are poorer than even the most ordinary of human literary achievement.

    Now one can of course say that I should compare the best parts of the Qur'an with the best parts of other literature. That would be fair thing to say in regards to any other book - but not the Qur'an - because of the very extraordinary claim it makes for itself.

    It claims to be of Divine origin - from beginning to end. The author is supposed to be Omnipotent and Omniscient. As a result it must be consistently flawless and of the highest standard throughout. Its style, meaning, language and clarity must be consistently maintained by The One who only has to say: "Be, and it is."

    Ok, lets put the word beauty aside and use the word complexity...which is less subjective. Can someone reproduce a book with the linguistic and grammatical complexity of the Quran. (without simply reverse-engineering it...hell even let them reverse engineer it)


    I'm not entirely certain what you mean, but I will say the same thing I said above - no, I don't think one can reproduce a book with the same linguistic and grammatical complexity of the Qur'an for the same reasons stated above.

    I remember being told a story (i forget the name of the person I will look for it inshallah) about a student of hassan al basree...this student was the first muatazilte.

    He had a speech impediment in which he could not pronounce the letter "raa" properly. Some of his collegues sought to embarrass him by making him perform a speech in front of a group thinking they will humiliate him by exposing his impediment.  

    But due to the vast vocabulary and the complex grammar of the Arabic language, incredibly he was able to deliver the speech without using the letter "raa".


    This is similar to the stories about Ali who was also legendary for his eloquence. Here is a Khutba he delivered entirely without using the letter Alif:

    http://www.sami9.net/vb/showthread.php?t=99488

    This of course does not prove the Qur'an is of non-human origin. In fact it just reminds us once again, that human beings can - and do - produce wonderful feats of oratory and literature.


  • Re: The Miraculous Nature of the Qur'an - For Screwball
     Reply #6 - August 27, 2010, 02:21 PM

    Sorry Hassan, we've been fooled by our age old troll again.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: The Miraculous Nature of the Qur'an - For Screwball
     Reply #7 - August 27, 2010, 03:07 PM

    Sorry Hassan, we've been fooled by our age old troll again.


    That's a shame. Oh well, at least it has reminded me how good the book by Abbas Abd al-Noor is - I really want to get back to translating it and finish it - but I'm so tied up right now.
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