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Theme Changer

 Topic: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"

 (Read 72312 times)
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  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #90 - July 30, 2010, 03:36 AM

    constitutional rights..  BULLSHIT!! it IS a flagrant slap in the face, and I tell ya what,
    There's gonna be "The American Revolution -- The Sequel"  IF that mosque gets built.




    You know I love you J&T, but you need to pipe down with the tea-bagger bullshit. It doesn't suit you.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #91 - July 30, 2010, 04:26 AM

    Quote from: Iblis
    Cordoba was for a long time one of the most advanced and tolerant places on earth.. and definitely the nicest place in Europe.


    Could you please specify the period of this alleged "golden age" of Islamic "tolerance" in Cordoba Iblis? Between what and what date roughly?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #92 - July 30, 2010, 04:29 AM

    Not for you I won't, faggot.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #93 - July 30, 2010, 05:04 AM

    Ok. Let me guess. Was this golden age of tolerance in Islamic Spain from the eighth up to and including the tenth century CE?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #94 - July 30, 2010, 05:35 AM

    OK let's rephrase the question Iblis. Do you think opinions like the following had any currency among Muslims during the golden age of tolerance in Islamic Spain:



    ?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #95 - July 30, 2010, 05:43 AM

    i love you too, iblis.  but im not a tea partier >(
    I didnt say they didnt have constitution right,
    I said they are abusing it.   Plus, according to that
    one video, once a mosque goes up, it can never be
    closed, *that post/video that kope  responded to*
    If Americans ever do close that mosque down, the
    entire muslim world will go ape  shit.

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #96 - July 30, 2010, 01:55 PM

    OK let's rephrase the question Iblis. Do you think opinions like the following had any currency among Muslims during the golden age of tolerance in Islamic Spain:

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    ?


    It was tolerant for its time. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that if we're talking the 8th through 10th centuries, then blasphemy, heresy and apostasy was punishable by death, just as it was by the Catholic Church until the middle of the 19th century. But that doesn't mean that religious minorities were not tolerated, especially in comparison with the status of religious minorities in Christendom at the time.

    fuck you
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #97 - July 30, 2010, 02:18 PM

    It was tolerant for its time. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that if we're talking the 8th through 10th centuries, then blasphemy, heresy and apostasy was punishable by death, just as it was by the Catholic Church until the middle of the 19th century. But that doesn't mean that religious minorities were not tolerated, especially in comparison with the status of religious minorities in Christendom at the time.


    There is no doubt that the Emirate of Andalusia was far more tolerant than Catholic Europe, indeed even the Byzantine peoples preferred the Ottoman Sultan's turban to the crown of the Frankish kings.  But it has no relevance, it just shows that some of those behind the masjid are still stuck in the fallacy of what I call 'golden age nostalgia'.. that mentality is going to cause problems and unrest.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #98 - July 30, 2010, 02:20 PM

    It's relevant if they chose the name to highlight Cordoba's religious tolerance, rather than Muslim conquest of the West-- which is the issue being discussed here.

    fuck you
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #99 - July 30, 2010, 02:22 PM

    It's relevant if they chose the name to highlight Cordoba's religious tolerance, rather than Muslim conquest of the West-- which is the issue being discussed here.


    That's the thing, tolerance..  Tolerance is not integration or equality, tolerance is putting up with the the minorities and their inferior ways.  The Muslim rulers tolerated the Jews and the Christians but they still considered them as second class citizens in the end.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #100 - July 30, 2010, 02:26 PM

    it just shows that some of those behind the masjid are still stuck in the fallacy of what I call 'golden age nostalgia'.. that mentality is going to cause problems and unrest.


    How is the golden age nostalgia exactly going to cause problems and unrest? People flying planes into building cause problems and unrest. But reminiscing over shit that happened a long time ago is not a crime. Muslims are not the only ones who have golden age nostalgia either. Besides, I'd rather Muslims be nostalgic about a version of Islam that symbolizes learning, culture and tolerance (to muslims anyways) like Cordoba, than be nostalgic over the the Islam of the Prophet Muhammad.

    And anyways you're right, what the real historical facts are is not really relevant at all. Muslim Cordoba could have been like Nazi Germany for all I care, what matters is that for Muslims the word symbolizes a benign and more worldly version of Islam. Which is why more progressive and sufi-type muslim orgs regularly employ imagery related to Cordova / Andalusia. You'll never see a terrorist organization calling itself the "Cordoba Islamic Jihad Front" for that exact reason.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #101 - July 30, 2010, 02:28 PM

    That's the thing, tolerance..  Tolerance is not integration or equality, tolerance is putting up with the the minorities and their inferior ways.  The Muslim rulers tolerated the Jews and the Christians but they still considered them as second class citizens in the end.


    Yeah, but you're still missing the point.

    fuck you
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #102 - July 30, 2010, 02:31 PM

    That's the thing, tolerance..  Tolerance is not integration or equality, tolerance is putting up with the the minorities and their inferior ways.  The Muslim rulers tolerated the Jews and the Christians but they still considered them as second class citizens in the end.


    Yes of course, it was a medieval kingdom. But the issue here is what a word like Cordoba symbolizes for Muslims. And it doesn't symbolize conquest or oppression. That's all that really is important.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #103 - July 30, 2010, 02:34 PM

    How is the golden age nostalgia exactly going to cause problems and unrest?


    Because you might find a couple of people who decide to try and recreate it to a certain extent and even falsify history if they can by exaggerating its achievements.  They'll avoid recognizing the real roots of the problem and tell their communities that they're not being religious enough or something.  They'll try to impose a new identity and give a false history to their own.

    Muslims are not the only ones who have golden age nostalgia either. Besides, I'd rather Muslims be nostalgic about a version of Islam that symbolizes learning, culture and tolerance (to muslims anyways) like Cordoba, than be nostalgic over the the Islam of the Prophet Muhammad.


    No they're not, which is why it will lead them down the same road it has lead other people.

    Which is why more progressive and sufi-type muslim orgs regularly employ imagery related to Cordova / Andalusia. You'll never see a terrorist organization calling itself the "Cordoba Islamic Jihad Front" for that exact reason.


    Why the emphasis on Corduba?  Baghdad and many Persian cities were quite advanced and flourishing back their heydays.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #104 - July 30, 2010, 02:35 PM

    I'm so drunk, I'm dancing in my undies.  grin12




    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx5Pz5fH1FA


    *puts a white powdered wig on homes, while he is dancing around in his undies*

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #105 - July 30, 2010, 02:38 PM

    Yes of course, it was a medieval kingdom. But the issue here is what a word like Cordoba symbolizes for Muslims. And it doesn't symbolize conquest or oppression. That's all that really is important.


    What is it supposed to symbolise then?   You have an emirate established in the West, that flourished and was doing better than its neighbours in many respects, couldn't it be taken by some as indicating that Islam could be superior again?  Such a mentality would not help with integration, do you get what I mean?

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #106 - July 30, 2010, 02:40 PM

    Because you might find a couple of people who decide to try and recreate it to a certain extent and even falsify history if they can by exaggerating its achievements.  They'll avoid recognizing the real roots of the problem and tell their communities that they're not being religious enough or something.  They'll try to impose a new identity and give a false history to their own.


    Of course I agree with all that. It might be stupid and unhealthy, but it's still hardly a recipe for unrest. The mosque itself is a recipe for unrest. I just don't think nostalgia over over-exaggerated past glories is really the problem.


    Quote
    Why the emphasis on Corduba?  Baghdad and many Persian cities were quite advanced and flourishing back their heydays.


    Because Cordoba and muslim Spain in general was the first and most appealing version of Islam to ever exist in the west. For western Muslims it says "hey look we were a productive part of the west once and we want to be again too". As a person who used to be part of Muslim activist cirlces I know for a fact that imagery related to Spain and Cordoba is not meant in a threatening way - in fact the opposite. Muslim liberal types *love* to use words like "Granada" "Cordoba" "Andalusia" etc because its synonymous with liberality.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #107 - July 30, 2010, 02:45 PM

    ras111, you're missing the point.  Afro
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #108 - July 30, 2010, 02:46 PM

    Well ok fair enough...

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #109 - July 30, 2010, 02:58 PM

    you do realize, that even though NYC approved it, if they can prove that its a
    historical landmark, the mosque  CANNOT be built. 

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #110 - July 30, 2010, 03:06 PM

    you do realize, that even though NYC approved it, if they can prove that its a
    historical landmark, the mosque  CANNOT be built.  


    Yes this is true, in fact I had a bet with an acquaintance over this and he still wont pay up lol

    Where is that E-Mail I sent him ... ah ... here:

    Quote
    Hi ,

    For more articles:

    The organization wishing to build the mosque must also obtain approval from the Landmarks Preservation committee,
    http://www.infocusnews.net/content/view/44355/135/

    a ruling by the Landmarks Preservation Commission might halt plans for a mosque near ground zero
    http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/05/ground_zero_mosque_plan_critic.html

    Landmark status could stop mosque near ground zero
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gieR_gNwrCUCH2jR03xjTCoEp4qgD9FTEDH01

    The group needs the approval of the Landmarks Preservation Commission, which could decide as early as July if the building merits historic protection.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/nyregion/26muslim.html?src=mv

    Controversial Mosque Plan Could be Thwarted By Landmarks Commission
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/mosque-plan-clears-hurdle-protests/story?id=10747570

    Those who oppose the Cordoba Initiative’s proposal will next look to the Landmarks Preservation Commission or the zoning process to delay or stop the project.
    http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=37234

    Plenty more articles on Google News.

    So do you concede??

  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #111 - July 30, 2010, 03:06 PM

    I just wish the Muslims involved with this would smarten up and build the fucking thing elsewhere.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #112 - July 30, 2010, 03:29 PM

    I just wish the Muslims involved with this would smarten up and build the fucking thing elsewhere.


    You see, it was not the name that got me.. But that specific name AND the location made it significant in my view.  If they want an Islam that is tolerant and applicable in a Western world, then why build its monument in a sensitive area?

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #113 - July 30, 2010, 03:46 PM

    Because they don't get it. I think people are getting too worked up over this, but it's pretty obvious the builders are fucking clueless as to why people are getting worked up at all-- they think they know, but they really don't get it. Like in other areas of life, religious bullshit has clouded their judgment.

    fuck you
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #114 - July 30, 2010, 03:49 PM

    You see, it was not the name that got me.. But that specific name AND the location made it significant in my view.  If they want an Islam that is tolerant and applicable in a Western world, then why build its monument in a sensitive area?


    Because they are arrogant, ignorant douchefucks.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #115 - July 30, 2010, 03:52 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    It was tolerant for its time. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that if we're talking the 8th through 10th centuries, then blasphemy, heresy and apostasy was punishable by death,


    That's right. The emirate/caliphate of Cordoba was throughout its history a sharia state like Saudia Arabia where "blasphemy (against Islam), heresy (against Islam) and apostasy (from Islam) were punishable by death." If that is Islam at its most "tolerant" then I wouldn't like to see it at its least.

    Quote
    But that doesn't mean that religious minorities were not tolerated,


    The caliphate of Cordoba was a sharia state where, like other similar historical sharia states, conquered communities of Jews, Christians and others classified as "Peoples of the Book" were "tolerated" according to the Koranic commandment:

    Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued

    Why, the Islamic overlords of India even "tolerated" the idol-worshipping hindus, although - where the nominally Muslim ruler wasn't a religious cynic like mughal emperor Akbar - this was due more to the impracticalities of carrying out the Koranic commandment to slaughter them all if they refused to accept Islam. Osama bin Laden would I am sure extend a similar "tolerance" to Jews and Christians were his dream of a global sharia state ever fulfilled. Very kind of the Muslims to "tolerate" the indingenous inhabitants of the lands they brutally conquered.

    Quote
    especially in comparison with the status of religious minorities in Christendom at the time


    Like contemporary Christian countries, historical Islamic states were "tolerant" of their Jews and other religious minorities except when they weren't. There were Jews being tolerated somewhere in Christian Europe throughout the period of the Cordoba emirate/caliphate. Furthermore, Muslims in the Iberian peninsula themselves lived as "tolerated" subjects under Christian rulers in reconquered territory - until they were finally offered the option of conversion to Christianity or emigration and ultimately expelled en masse. Similarly, Christian rulers in the middle east ruled over Muslim subjects during the Crusading period.

    If the proposed ground zero mosque is being named "Cordoba" in celebration of a historical sharia state in Spain then that is cause for concern, as is your defense of the wretched place as a beacon  of "tolerance".

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #116 - July 30, 2010, 03:56 PM

    that is cause for concern, as is your defense of the wretched place as a beacon  of "tolerance".


    What? Why don't you suck my fuckin cock, Dick Head?

    fuck you
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #117 - July 30, 2010, 04:00 PM

    what a twat

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #118 - July 30, 2010, 05:01 PM

    You see, it was not the name that got me.. But that specific name AND the location made it significant in my view.  If they want an Islam that is tolerant and applicable in a Western world, then why build its monument in a sensitive area?


    Iblis... short and sweet, thats all I want to know   hugs

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Ground Zero Mosque being Called "Cordoba House"
     Reply #119 - July 30, 2010, 07:02 PM

    you do realize, that even though NYC approved it, if they can prove that its a
    historical landmark, the mosque  CANNOT be built. 


    they are trying for that but it won't get them anywhere. 2 blocks away from the WTC is no where anywhere near close to being  a "landmark"

    I am a New Yorker trust me on this. A blocks in NYC is not 2 feet. Its very spaced apart.
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