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 Topic: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.

 (Read 9761 times)
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  • Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
     Reply #30 - July 27, 2010, 08:33 PM

    Free will does not esist. Humans posses an attribute of their consiousness called "Will". The association of the words "Free" and "Will" is an attempt to glorify the Human faculty of will. There is no such thing as free will, its an illusion or in a theists case a dillusion.

    In the second sentence  of your original post you associate "Will" and "Evil" and then go on to admonish a participant for attempting to converse inside the frame of reference you set for the debate.

    Have you a euphemisitc word to describe this position I can think of a few but there not euphemistic.

    Sir (high insult to an Irishman), I believe you to be a Prick, and I believe we are all entitled to our beliefs.

    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
     Reply #31 - August 03, 2010, 11:38 AM

    How is that unfair? Aren't you just acknowledging that the bad is greatly outweighed by the good? Or is that just your point, and do you consider that unfair?


    My point was that since the afterlife is eternal, the few decades we spend here in this life become completely meaningless.

    The thing I found unfair was that your Allah imposes poverty as an additional hardship to some (in the insignificant time span which is a human life), which he goes on to reward infinitely higher in the afterlife. (A slightly higher reward for an infinite amount of time is an infinite higher reward). This is unfair to all who are not spending their insignificant short lives in poverty.

    Bukhari 62:142 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
       The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
  • Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
     Reply #32 - August 04, 2010, 02:43 PM

    @abdul fattah & tony stark.

    philosophy is inconclusive. it piles up arguments pro and against a position without ever proving anything.

    my advice to you : start relying on science instead of philosophy. philosophy is pseudo knowledge.


    This is by far the biggest load of crap I've seen on this site(next to kope's legendary posts). The entire concept of God is a philosophical issue, not a scientific one. Science is the study of phenomena which encompasses an entirely meritocratic and arguably empiricist standard of knowledge(though that depends on whether you think the mathematical relations between observed phenomena falls under this empiricism). This standard of scientific knowledge and the discussion of it is the PHILOSOPHY of science.

    As for your statement that 'Philosophy is pseudo-knowledge'; Philosophy isn't about reaching a conclusion. It's about the study of concepts and statements, what we can derive from such statements and whether these derivations are consistent with each other or not. For example, the very definition of knowledge in philosophy has many manifestations! It's not about reaching a perfect conclusion and conveying absolute truths(that's where us mathematicians come to point and laugh at everybody), it's about studying the very fundamental concepts that are all around us!

    Science is awesome, but it has influence on us beyond what it says. The big bang happened for example, but this has nothing to do with morality, ethics, religion or God. And it should stay this way.
  • Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
     Reply #33 - August 09, 2010, 01:02 PM

    I have seen this argument so many times it's rather tiring. Really though, do you honestly believe that? An omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god couldn't figure out how to make a universe without suffering being somehow "necessary"? I'm sorry, but if this god of yours truly is omnipotent and omniscient (a logical impossibility, but I'll grant it here) and so therefor knows of the innocent's suffering and does nothing about it, that god is the epitome of evil and injustice and I refuse to worship such a malevolent being. I think we should all be glad that such a being most certainly does not exist, however.

    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
     Reply #34 - August 11, 2010, 02:49 PM

    If there is no god, then most things that take place happen due to probability,possibility,chance and error.
    Sometimes Good things would happen to bad people, sometimes bad things would happen to no one. etc etc.


    I somehow fail to see where 'god' is in all of this.
    Its like (wink) he conforms entirely to a godless nature...
  • Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
     Reply #35 - August 12, 2010, 11:01 AM

    it is not inconceivable that a god may harm its creation immensely for a test duration less then infinity, as in the end it's nothing
    compared to infinity.

    that said, infinite hellfire based on a speck of lifetime as an ambiguous test?

    only thing muslims can say at that point is, we are but only his.
    he can exercise his will over us as he will, it won't be evil.
    he is out of the boundaries of morality, while being morally superiorest.

  • Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
     Reply #36 - August 12, 2010, 04:25 PM

    There exist many variations and spins on this; but the original riddle goes like this:
    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?


    The weakness obviously lies in the deduction on the second premise. It completely leaves out the possibility that there might be a deeper underlying motive for an able God not want to ban evil without him being considered malevolent.

    If we understand and analyze the different types of evil, I can find an alternative explanation rather then resorting to God being malevolent.

       1. Evil as result of free will.
          Many evil things comes from mankind's free will. The problem is freedom of Choice. If you believe -like I do- that life is a test; then God would defeat his own purpose by preventing evil! Stopping evil would prevent free will.
       2. Necessary (relative) Evil.
          Of course, not all evil of the world can be traced back to human choices. There is a second type, which I'd like to call relative evils. Because their "evilness" is relative to one's perspective. Death for example, gets a whole new perspective if seen as a transition rather then an end. These are things that serve a purpose. It can be a practical purpose, like the mentioned death in order to transit from one world to the next. But other things as hardship can also have practical benefits. For example, it can teach people. Ever noticed how generally speaking, people who had little or no hardships in their life have a higher tendency to be arrogant? Rightful punishment could be another practical evil. As controversial as some of these might be, the point remains that we can imagine alternative motives, without resorting to judging our creator as malevolent for allowing these "evils".
       3. Hardship as a test.
          And then finally a third type of evil, in general all sorts of hardships and suffering that do not serve a direct purpose in this life. However even these can gain a new perspective if seen in the context of life being a test. There's a huge difference between a poor man who doesn't steal and a rich man who doesn't steal. From that perspective one could consider being poor as a blessing rather then a curse, as it can increase one's reward in the hereafter.

    So is God malevolent or not? Well I certainly don't think I can prove my view is right. But I do hope I've just shown that the problem of evil is inconclusive as there is room for alternatives.


    1. Evil as result of free will.

    Yes many evil acts are the result of human action and can be explained by our freewill. However freewill is a very tricky subject - particularly when you bring an all-powerful, all-knowing God into the equation. The problem is that our choices are determined by factors that such a God must have defined unless he somehow built in to our creation the ability to act in a way he did not calculate when he made us.

    2. Necessary (relative) Evil.

    This is only an assertion. There is no evidence to prove that evil is a means to an end. I certainly hope that the terrible suffering, disease, disaster and death serve a good purpose and will be balanced out in the grand scheme of things - but the fact is that neither you nor I know that that it does and wishing something would be true because we want it to be so - does not make it true.

    3. Hardship as a test.

    Again, this is only an assertion and makes little sense when you examine it. Why does an all-knowing God need to test us? So he can say I told you so? So he can justify torturing them for eternity? And what is he testing? Whether we are willing to have faith in something that is unsupported by any real evidence? (If so Christians, Hindus, Jedi Knights, and devotees of the Mbombo who 'vomited out the world', have also passed the test.)

    Is God malevolent? I find it hard to think that if a god does exist he is a malevolent monster. So either he doesn't exist or he really does have a very good reason for all this. However what I am quite sure of is that no God can call himself Just, Merciful or Forgiving if he also tortures his creatures for coming to the conclusion that there is no God or that religions are false.

    The fact that the Qur'an spends so much time condemning those who don't believe to the most gruesome and cruel torture, makes it blindingly obvious it is the work of man and not a god - if one exists - regardless of what the answers to the above philosophical questions are.
  • Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
     Reply #37 - August 12, 2010, 05:29 PM

    "3. Hardship as a test.

    Again, this is only an assertion and makes little sense when you examine it. Why does an all-knowing God need to test us? So he can say I told you so? So he can justify torturing them for eternity? And what is he testing? Whether we are willing to have faith in something that is unsupported by any real evidence? (If so Christians, Hindus, Jedi Knights, and devotees of the Mbombo who 'vomited out the world', have also passed the test.)

    Is God malevolent? I find it hard to think that if a god does exist he is a malevolent monster. So either he doesn't exist or he really does have a very good reason for all this. However what I am quite sure of is that no God can call himself Just, Merciful or Forgiving if he also tortures his creatures for coming to the conclusion that there is no God or that religions are false.

    The fact that the Qur'an spends so much time condemning those who don't believe to the most gruesome and cruel torture, makes it blindingly obvious it is the work of man and not a god - if one exists - regardless of what the answers to the above philosophical questions are."



    It was always a flawed argument coming from people who claim 'god knows everything'.
    It is the equal to hurting a rat because it didn't go down the correct maze path or testing an acid on it, even though the outcome of both concepts was fully known beforehand.
    That is essentially evil in itself.

    On a larger scale, it also nulls the point of the Quran in the first place.
  • Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
     Reply #38 - August 12, 2010, 05:38 PM

    there is a possible explanation with a god, and a test in the equation, and it is a variation of the simulation argument
    http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html

    we are all here because our god -which is the entity that rules over the boundaries of our reality, and not necessarily the only thing out of that reality- is testing what simulated people do when faced with these religions.

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