the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #60 - July 27, 2010, 04:02 PM

Thanks tialoc, you've put it in far more precise terms than I did.

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #61 - July 27, 2010, 04:08 PM

If the all-knowing being also gets to affect the environment then that being also knows the consequences of its own decisions - ultimately knowing how we will be influenced means that god decided our ultimate destiny when deciding the initial parameters + how he interacted with us.

His actions ultimately shaped our actions with foreknowledge, effectively removing our ability to choose our own destinies.

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #62 - July 27, 2010, 04:24 PM

I have a maybe challenging hypothesis for TheRationalizer.

Let's imagine God created a Multiverse, so for every possible "choice" a Universe exists in which the actor takes such choice.
In each Universe the actor is rewarded or punished by God for the end result of his life according to whatever religion we are talking about.

If that were true, would you still consider God as the "instigator of evil"?

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #63 - July 27, 2010, 04:28 PM

I don't believe in evil, so try another.

Here's one for you. God provides you with 2 doors, one leads to safety and another to certain death. Your choice of door determines your own future. However if god knows which door you will choose then it is god's choice of configuration that determines your future and not your own decision.

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #64 - July 27, 2010, 04:34 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on July 27, 2010, 04:28 PM
I don't believe in evil, so try another.

Here's one for you. God provides you with 2 doors, one leads to safety and another to certain death. Your choice of door determines your own future. However if god knows which door you will choose then it is god's choice of configuration that determines your future and not your own decision.

Ok, in the hypothesis above, you take both doors.
But in different Universes.

So in one you get to safety, and in the other you get death.

So God did not determine anything, the "experiment" simply took all possible paths.

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #65 - July 27, 2010, 04:35 PM

And I used "instigator of Evil" because that was your choice of words.

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #66 - July 27, 2010, 04:38 PM

Quote from: z10 on July 27, 2010, 03:02 PM
Emotions such as responsbility, shame and regret are meaningless unless we have freedom of choice and those feelings are as real as anything can be.

I do not think a lack of free-will means a lack of responsibility, you are still responsible for your actions insofar as it is YOU that commits them - your hands, your brain, your body.

I also don't see how free choice follows from a state of ignorance. You just seem to be doing no more than re-defining 'free will' to fit the concept, could you elaborate?
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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #67 - July 27, 2010, 04:42 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on July 27, 2010, 04:38 PM
I do not think a lack of free-will means a lack of responsibility, you are still responsible for your actions insofar as it is YOU that commits them - your hands, your brain, your body.

I also don't see how free choice follows from a state of ignorance. You just seem to be doing no more than re-defining 'free will' to fit the concept, could you elaborate?

True.

Even if we were deterministic machines that also knew in advance all the choices we will ever take... how would that makes us less responsible for them?

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #68 - July 27, 2010, 05:00 PM

I think a helpful way will be to think of it in the following way:-

A causes B to happen. A can either be antecedent particle fluctuations or the will of a deity, it doesn't matter. B is the outcome of a choice that I think I made without having knowledge of A. My point is that, because I do not and cannot know about A, the occurence of B in my experience seems like it is a free choice made by myself.
The truth of A causing B can only be ascertained after the fact as an abstraction of thought - in the moment, my experience of events will always seem as if I myself caused them.

I think the idea of responsibility ties in with the above model. If I know for a fact that A caused B and that A is sufficient for causing B, then my own part in the occurence of B is irrelevant, it is an epiphenomenon. I can only take respobsibility for B if I take myself to be the final cause of B, and do not know about A. However, I think this talk of responsibility is perhaps a tangent and taking away from the main point I was trying to make so I apologise for bringing it in.

In the end, it seems to me, as long as I do not know exactly what A is I can think myself free and at the same time accept predestination without contradiction.

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #69 - July 27, 2010, 06:15 PM

There is no such thing as absolute free will. There is free choice, and free is affected by external factors. Like how our brain is wired, our current situation and so on.

Let's say I wanted to murder person A.

Somebody tells me I am free to murder person A but if I do then I will be murdered as well.

Now I do have a free choice but do I really have free will? Because I do want to murder person A but I won't because I want to preserve my life (which is also determined, my brain is wired to survive). Free will would mean nobody interfering and no consequences at all. I am truly free do as I will.

I think we do have a choice and we can be responsible for our choices. And we can choose not to be.

The problem is when you put in God and Heaven/Hell into the equation of a being that is All-Merciful.

He is not all Merciful, how could he be? He is as Merciful as he chooses to be.

It's all really weird because we are only as free as the choices given to us. And we are only as free as our knowledge of possible outcomes. It's stupid. It works for people of the 7th Century who heard Muhammad, then I guess it can work. They were there.

But taken globally it just doesn't make any sense.
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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #70 - July 27, 2010, 11:55 PM

I've said this before in another thread, I'm not adverse to repeating myself,

"Free Will" is bullshit, there isn't a single lifeform on this planet with "Free Will". The attribute you are failing to glorify is called "Will"

Every person on this planet has an attribute called "Will" and everyone has their "Will" curtailed, some to a greater degree than others.

We all have "Will" but none of us are free to practise our "Will" at times. When our Will conflicts with the will of others there will be a winner and a loser.

The theists have never proven a single argument, not one, I hardly think that this is their "Will" and it certainly ain't their allegedly free will.

Why have you wasted everyones time writing and writing about an attribute that humans do not posses?

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #71 - July 28, 2010, 05:48 AM

Quote from: Tlaloc on July 27, 2010, 04:34 PM
Ok, in the hypothesis above, you take both doors.
But in different Universes.

So then god is only responsible for the murder on the scale of 50% of infinity.......somehow that seems a tad worse.

how about this idea.......don't put the fucking doors there at all!

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #72 - July 28, 2010, 08:14 AM

http://www.ted.com/talks/sheena_iyengar_on_the_art_of_choosing.html

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #73 - July 28, 2010, 10:48 AM

Great link!

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #74 - July 28, 2010, 11:12 AM

Abdul Fattah i know you are nice guy, trying to prove your points here and i don't mean to offend you in any kind of way but SERIOUSLY you are more confused than a devout muslim.

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #75 - July 28, 2010, 01:01 PM

Here is one for you:
If Allah is Omnischient and he is most-merciful then:
Why would Allah create a kaafir( fully aware) that the kaafir is going to end up in hell ( even because of the freewill excersiced by the kaafir) to be tortured for eternity. You cannot say or do that and still call yourself most-merciful. Remember this, God knew that kaafir x would go to hell before the kafir was even born. In fact, God knew that when he ordered the Pen to write fifty thousand years before creation.

Even if you argue that humans have free will and made their own choices, it's still not going to cut it. If god was really most merciful, then why bother creating a kaafir who's going to end up in hell anyway, even by the choices the kaafir made.

So if god really exists, then he is a sadistic and malevolent being and unworthy of being worshiped.

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Jews wildered, Magians far on error's way.
We mortals are composed of two great schools:
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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #76 - July 28, 2010, 01:21 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on July 28, 2010, 05:48 AM
So then god is only responsible for the murder on the scale of 50% of infinity.......somehow that seems a tad worse.

how about this idea.......don't put the fucking doors there at all!

Why 50% of infinity? O_o
Where does infinity come into play?

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #77 - July 28, 2010, 02:43 PM

Quote from: arabie on July 28, 2010, 01:01 PM
Here is one for you:
If Allah is Omnischient and he is most-merciful then:
Why would Allah create a kaafir( fully aware) that the kaafir is going to end up in hell ( even because of the freewill excersiced by the kaafir) to be tortured for eternity. You cannot say or do that and still call yourself most-merciful. Remember this, God knew that kaafir x would go to hell before the kafir was even born. In fact, God knew that when he ordered the Pen to write fifty thousand years before creation.

I have similar thoughts.

God being both omniscient and omnipotent would make free will seem like an illusion.

Everything we do in the context of our [god-given] free will, should work towards fulfilling his divine plan.

He knew what we were going to choose to do.

It's not that he lets it happen that makes him ill-willing, but that he planned it from the very beginning.

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #78 - July 28, 2010, 07:05 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on July 28, 2010, 08:14 AM
http://www.ted.com/talks/sheena_iyengar_on_the_art_of_choosing.html

Thanks for sharing this - an excellent talk.

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #79 - July 29, 2010, 07:10 AM

Quote from: olweasel on July 28, 2010, 02:43 PM
I have similar thoughts.

God being both omniscient and omnipotent would make free will seem like an illusion.

Everything we do in the context of our [god-given] free will, should work towards fulfilling his divine plan.

He knew what we were going to choose to do.

It's not that he lets it happen that makes him ill-willing, but that he planned it from the very beginning.

I haven’t really mentioned the problem of free will, because in the end it doesn’t matter. You only have to focus on two issues; Omniscience and most-merciful, you only need those two.
The prophet himself said the next thing about gods mercy:

Umar ibn Al-Khattab said: Some captives were brought to the Messenger of Allah and there was a woman among them whose breasts were full of milk. Suddenly, this woman saw an infant in the midst of the captives. She took hold of it, brought it into her bosom, and started nursing it. The Prophet then told the Companions, "Do you think that this woman would throw her child in the fire?" We said, "No, By Allah she would not, if she is able not to." He then said, "Allah the Exalted is more merciful with His slave than this woman with her child." (Al-Bukhari).

God knew when he ordered the Pen to write everything 50.000 years before creation, that a kaafir (X) would go to hell for eternity, even by the kafirs own “free will”. That’s not merciful of him if he creates a kaafir that is going to end up in hell for eternity. God knew that (omniscience) and still creates the kaafir, that’s not most-merciful.

That’s a huge contradiction that no one has ever solved. In the end they all resort to free will. But free will is not the issue, but the contradiction of omniscience and most-merciful.

"Hanifs (Muslims) are stumbling, Christians all astray
Jews wildered, Magians far on error's way.
We mortals are composed of two great schools:
Enlightened knaves or else religious fools....."

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Re: the apparent paradox between free will and predestination.
Reply #80 - July 29, 2010, 10:36 AM

"Free Will" does not exist even for athiests.

Humans have the faculty of "Will" no one has "free will" to imply that a person is free to achieve their will, is to imply that a persons will is achieveable regarless of the known and unknown choices available to them. It is quite obvious that this is not the case.

Why is it that a theist can say my "Holy Book" predicts this and that and then turn around and attempt to imply that the Human faculty of will is unrestricted in a world that is allegedly predicted.

balls

also, if you say that god makes choices, the god you are talking about is not omnipotent, because if he was he wouldn't make choices at all.

both "free will" and "omnipotence" are mutually exclusive and ridicoulous.

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