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Theme Changer

 Topic: convinced rational muslim

 (Read 18613 times)
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  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #30 - July 22, 2010, 09:28 PM

    So tell us how do you reach the conclusion that Islam is the 'true' religion using reason and logic?


    Great question  Afro

    I'd like to add a few more..

    Do you believe in the scientific method?
    Do you accept the Sahih Hadiths
    Whats your view on verse 4:34?
    Do you believe in Evolutionary Theory?  
    Also do you accept you could be wrong?
    Do you accept the only fair, true & honest rational position is as an agnostic?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #31 - July 22, 2010, 09:29 PM

    Cos I have a small penis.



    Awww poor you lol
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #32 - July 22, 2010, 09:33 PM

    Thanks for the link HO!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #33 - July 22, 2010, 09:33 PM

    @ Meredith is the parrot  smilie a welcome for a troll?


    Did I miss something? Why is he a troll?
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #34 - July 22, 2010, 09:34 PM

    You don't need to justify the very fact a 'rational muslim' isn't really a contradiction by using Bertrand Russel quotes! We believe you!

    Welcome to the forum(I'm not sure if I should be welcoming since I just joined but w/e), I'll have fun reading your posts!
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #35 - July 22, 2010, 09:35 PM

    Did I miss something? Why is he a troll?


    He said hello.
    Clearly that is grounds for him being a troll.

    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #36 - July 22, 2010, 09:39 PM

    Pure intuition! Cry Cry  Embarrassed My irrational moment I guess!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #37 - July 22, 2010, 09:40 PM

    Its not nice to accuse people of being trolls.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #38 - July 22, 2010, 09:42 PM

    Hey, I have an idea, let's turn this into another confusing thread similar to MRasheed's intro thread. grin12

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #39 - July 22, 2010, 09:42 PM

    Unless proven otherwise! OK! I get the message. My apologies!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #40 - July 22, 2010, 09:47 PM

    Hey, I have an idea, let's turn this into another confusing thread similar to MRasheed's intro thread. grin12

    Noooooo,   please no.   Let's just ask him to go and read that thread and answer every single point put to MRasheed.  Smiley

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #41 - July 22, 2010, 09:53 PM

    Hi,
    To the people asking what attracted me to Islam,
    It was a mixture of many factors.
    - personal experiences
    - logical consistency of Islam
    - compatibility with science
    - psychological depth of the Qur'an
    For people who're really interested in the full nine yards; I posted my website in my signature. there I explain my views on a whole variety of topics, as well as my personal experiences which lead me to Islam.

    HighOctane,
    I don't think there's such a thing as "better or worse" rational thinking. Thinking is either rational or it isn't. It's true that two rationalists might have different views, but that's because they rely on a different premise. In the end of the day I know my faith is a faith. And that I am convinced in it because I believe in it, not because I have proof of it. Nevertheless I think my faith is perfectly rational in the sense that I don't see any inconsistencies in it. How do you judge if that makes my rational thinking better or worse then someone else's? I think the notion is rather meaningless.

    Ateapotist,
    In reply to your questions:
    Quote
    Do you believe in the scientific method?

    I "believe" it's a very usefull method for gaining knowledge. Although at the same time I don't think peopel should limit to this method alone, as it is very limiting in the scope of things one can examine.
    Quote
    Do you accept the Sahih Hadiths

    I'm afraid I can't give a yes or no answer to that one. I don't know wheter all the hadeeths are genuinly an accurate recording of the Prophet. I think the sahih status is pretty usefull in the sense you know it has some degree of reliability, but at the other hand I don't think that this means it definitly is accurate.
    Quote
    Whats your view on verse 4:34?

    It's a long verse, and the tefsirs have many things to say on it. As for the topics discussed in the verse, whole books have been written about that. So any specific part you wanted to ask me about?
    Quote
    Do you believe in Evolutionary Theory?  

    I believe in some parts of evolution theory. The word as it is used today seems to refer to a group of subtheories, some of which are scientific some of which are not. In general lines. I believe different species were created, and I believe those species evolved into an even larger variety of species trough natural laws.
    Quote
    Also do you accept you could be wrong?

    Yes, I was a hard atheist in the past. And I tried hard convincing people that atheism was the correct view. When I changed my mind I realised that even though something might seem perfectly logical and sound, that doesn't necessarily mean it's right.
    Quote
    Do you accept the only fair, true & honest rational position is as an agnostic?

    No, I don't. I think you're implying that in order to be true honest and rational, one cannot take any premise or build any viewpoint based on plausibility. I'd argue that this state of mind is physically impossible. People always have some level of bias build into their world-view. While in theory you might be right, from a pragmatic point of view, I strongly disagree.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #42 - July 22, 2010, 09:59 PM

    I believe different species were created, and I believe those species evolved into an even larger variety of species trough natural laws.

    Oh dear... grin12

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #43 - July 22, 2010, 10:10 PM

    Thanks for your reply.  I just wanted to get a handle on what you believe being a Muslim means to you.  In response:

    So any specific part you wanted to ask me about?

    Whether you accept that it means you can hit your wife in extreme circumstances.

    Quote
    I believe in some parts of evolution theory.

     
    What about the DNA & fossil evidence proving man came from ape?

    Quote
    I think you're implying that in order to be true honest and rational, one cannot take any premise or build any viewpoint based on plausibility.  People always have some level of bias build into their world-view. While in theory you might be right, from a pragmatic point of view, I strongly disagree....I'd argue that this state of mind is physically impossible.

    Why, as I believe I manage it pretty well?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #44 - July 22, 2010, 10:16 PM

    - logical consistency of Islam


    Would you say eternal torture is logical? Or consistent with the Most Merciful of those who show Mercy?
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #45 - July 22, 2010, 10:16 PM

    This guy is Co-Administrator in a site called "Islamic-life"


    http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/quran-hadith-prophet-muhammad/apostasy-islam-635

    ^ epic
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #46 - July 22, 2010, 10:17 PM

    was your conversion to Islam in away due
    to ANY emotional experiences? (i.e. koran, nasheeds, athan, duaas, islamic poetry)

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #47 - July 22, 2010, 10:17 PM

    This guy is Co-Administrator in a site called "Islamic-life"


    http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/quran-hadith-prophet-muhammad/apostasy-islam-635

    ^ epic



    how'd u figure that out?

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #48 - July 22, 2010, 10:18 PM

    Hello and welcome to the forum!

    born and raised in the west.

    If you don't mind me asking, are your parents immigrants and are they religous in any way?

    Bukhari 62:142 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
       The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #49 - July 22, 2010, 10:19 PM

    This guy is Co-Administrator in a site called "Islamic-life"


    http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/quran-hadith-prophet-muhammad/apostasy-islam-635

    ^ epic


    Do you agree with this Abdul Fattah? (from the link above):

    Why in Islam Death is Punishment for Apostasy?

    (1) This is the ruling of Allaah and His Messenger, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Whoever changes his religion, kill him." (reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3017).

    (2) The one who has known the religion which Allaah revealed, entered it and practised it, then rejected it, despised it and left it, is a person who does not deserve to live on the earth of Allaah and eat from the provision of Allaah.

    (3) By leaving Islaam, the apostate opens the way for everyone who wants to leave the faith, thus spreading apostasy and encouraging it.

    (4) The apostate is not to be killed without warning. Even though his crime is so great, he is given a last chance, a respite of three days in which to repent. If he repents, he will be left alone; if he does not repent, then he will be killed.

    (5) If the punishment for murder and espionage (also known as high treason) is death, then what should be the punishment for the one who disbelieves in the Lord of mankind and despises and rejects His religion? Is espionage or shedding blood worse than leaving the religion of the Lord of mankind and rejecting it?

    (6) None of those who bleat about personal freedom and freedom of belief would put up with a neighbour’s child hitting their child or justify this as "personal freedom," so how can they justify leaving the true religion and rejecting the sharee’ah which Allaah revealed to teach mankind about His unity and bring justice and fairness to all?

    Source: Why Death is Punishment for Apostasy?
    Why should a person who disbelieves after becoming Muslim be executed?
    The punishment for apostasy from the religion of Islam is execution. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever”

    [al-Baqarah 2:217]

    And it was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh. What this hadeeth means is that whoever leaves Islam and changes to another religion and persists in that and does not repent, is to be executed. It was also proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a person who bears witness that there is no god but Allaah and that I am the Messenger of Allaah except in three cases: a life for a life, a previously-married person who commits adultery, and one who leaves Islam and forsakes the jamaa’ah.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari and Muslim.

    This harsh punishment is for a number of reasons:

    1 – This punishment is a deterrent to anyone who wants to enter Islam just to follow the crowd or for hypocritical purposes. This will motivate him to examine the matter thoroughly and not to proceed unless he understands the consequences of that in this world and in the Hereafter. The one who announces his Islam has agreed to adhere to all the rulings of Islam of his own free will and consent, one of which rulings is that he is to be executed if he apostatizes from the faith.

    2 – The one who announces his Islam has joined the jamaa’ah (main body) of the Muslims, and whoever joins the main body of the Muslims is required to be completely loyal and to support it and protect it against anything that may lead to fitnah or destroy it or cause division. Apostasy from Islam means forsaking the jamaa’ah and its divine order, and has a harmful effect on it. Execution is the greatest deterrent that will prevent people from committing such a crime.

    3 – Those Muslims who are weak in faith and others who are against Islam may think that the apostate has only left Islam because of what he has found out about its real nature, because if it were the truth then he would never have turned away from it. So they learn from him all the doubts, lies and fabrications which are aimed at extinguishing the light of Islam and putting people off from it. In this case executing the apostate is obligatory, in order to protect the true religion from the defamation of the liars and to protect the faith of its adherents and remove obstacles from the path of those who are entering the faith.

    4 – We also say that the death penalty exists in the modern laws of man to protect the system from disorder in some situation and to protect society against certain crimes which may cause its disintegration, such as drugs etc. If execution can serve as a deterrent to protect man-made systems, then it is more appropriate that the true religion of Allaah, which Falsehood cannot come to it from before it or behind it [cf. Fussilat 41:42], and which is all goodness, happiness and tranquility in this world and in the Hereafter should punish those who commit acts of aggression against it and seek to extinguish its light and defame its image, and who fabricate lies against it to justify their apostasy and deviation.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #50 - July 22, 2010, 10:20 PM

    OMG!!!  TROLL ALERT!!!

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #51 - July 22, 2010, 10:22 PM

    Do you agree with this Abdul Fattah? (from the link above):


    Ofcourse not!

    im an ex-muslim myself lol
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #52 - July 22, 2010, 10:24 PM

    Ofcourse not!

    im an ex-muslim myself lol


    I was addressing Abdul Fattah Wink
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #53 - July 22, 2010, 10:35 PM

    Hi,

    As for hitting the wife. Well I'm not an expert on fiqh. What this verse seems to be referring to, is hitting the hand with a siwak (a thin, light, soft stick used as toothbrush). and that it is a last resort, better not used.

    As for fossil and DNA evidence, I don't believe these "evidences" are very conclusive, but rather are highly debatable.

    As for the physical possibility of that certain state of mind. I think I might have mis-worded my viewpoints. I didn't mean to say that agnosticism is physically impossible, but rather that a bias-free mind is physically impossible. So even the agnostic has bias in his world-view. Perhaps not on the issue of the existence of God, but he will certainly have it on some issues.
    Perhaps you might argue: "yes, but the difference is the agnostic has this bias without realizing it, whereas you (refering to me) accept it knowingly."
    Very true, but again, that's because I am a pragmatist and don't believe in playing it safe and siting by the sidelines. And this pragmatic approach to the issue; that to I consider to be rational and honest. I decided to believe because logic dictates me it's the most plausible among the different alternatives. So in the end I still don't see how my views are less honest, rational or true then those of an agnostic.

    Hassan,
    Yes I consider eternal torture consistent with the most mercifull. Most means highest among all others. It doesn't mean unlimited as to all will always be forgiven. One of the names of Allah is also the most just. And I don't believe that it would be just to allow some people into heaven.

    Boo,
    Yes I'm from IL-forum,
    Regarding the thread you posted, if you scroll down and read my post there, you'll see that I actually hold different views on apostasy as opposed to the majority of people on that forum.

    Jinn and tonic,
    Yes there were emotions involved. What struck me most was reading (a translation) of the Qur'an

    TheLastKnight
    No, both my parents are native here. My mother is a non-practicing Catholic and my father was an atheist.

    PS: Am I a troll because I'm also admin of the IL-forum? I hope you'll give me a chance and judge based on my posts here.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #54 - July 22, 2010, 10:36 PM


    how'd u figure that out?

    google  Wink
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #55 - July 22, 2010, 10:37 PM

    i love your avatar so much, i can't get over it. please change it. I'm at work and my bone is breaking in my pants.  wacko wacko

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #56 - July 22, 2010, 10:41 PM

    I DID scroll down, and didnt see any opposition to the
    "fatwah" radicals.  The fact that you even entertain
    those who hold these beliefs are what concern me.

    WHAT is your REAL purpose here?

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #57 - July 22, 2010, 10:42 PM

    nooooooooo boo! DONT CHANGE IT!!  its phenominal, and
    Im straight! LOL

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #58 - July 22, 2010, 10:43 PM

    i love your avatar so much, i can't get over it. please change it. I'm at work and my bone is breaking in my pants.  wacko wacko

    I love the way she slaps it at the beginning  Phwoar

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #59 - July 22, 2010, 10:46 PM

    nooooooooo boo! DONT CHANGE IT!!  its phenominal, and
    Im straight! LOL



    No its degrading women Tongue
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