Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


What music are you listen...
Yesterday at 08:35 PM

New PM incoming
by zeca
Yesterday at 06:37 PM

Qur'anic studies today
Yesterday at 02:08 PM

'Islamic State' a.k.a. IS...
Yesterday at 01:50 PM

Attack on Jewish store in...
December 12, 2019, 11:57 PM

Blasphemy Case of Junaid...
December 12, 2019, 11:50 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
December 12, 2019, 10:52 PM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
December 12, 2019, 09:23 PM

Protests in Iraq
by zeca
December 11, 2019, 07:40 PM

Are Hijabs really a choic...
December 11, 2019, 02:35 PM

Kashmir endgame
December 11, 2019, 02:13 PM

Iran uprising - is the en...
by zeca
December 11, 2019, 02:06 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: convinced rational muslim

 (Read 20094 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 5 6 78 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #180 - July 26, 2010, 07:53 PM

    Abul said:   Jinn and tonic,
    I'm impressed, If I read correctly you went from thinking I'm a troll to respecting me.That you can change your opinion like that is really admirable.


    I thought you were a troll, as you are entertaining some suspcious
    people on your forum, and  a subject that one cannot be anything
    but concerned about (re:  kaffirs)

    I said I would be respectful (in regards to my dialog with you, as you have been
    polite and respectful to us (post wise). Not every muslim that comes in here is
    as ummm... calm and pleasant LOL.

    I respect you as a human being until you prove otherwise.  I cannot respect your current
    religion of choice, from  a "rational" perspective.  Kind of like, "dont hate the player,
    hate the game"  LOL

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #181 - July 26, 2010, 07:59 PM

    hi Prince spinoza
    Interesting read, although I must say it doesn't really make my world views crumble. As I suggested to you before, I do believe many of our choices are not as free as we think they are. Instead I believe that we occasionally have genuinely free choices, and that most of the time we're just running with what we chose at those crossroads.
    I realize off-course this is an extremely difficult view to falsify, as it would be incredibly challenging to derive experimental data from genuine "crossroad" decisions.

    Jinn and tonic
    Fair enough, and yeah I'd imagine the average Muslim coming here would act different. I'll be the first in line to admit there's some deep serious issues wrong with the behavior of the majority of Muslims, and not just on-line.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #182 - July 26, 2010, 09:14 PM

    Let me ask you a few questions first.

    The concept of free will makes no sense. Combining the concepts of 'free' and 'will' is pure nonsense, it's like having a square circle. Consider a scenario where two people have the exact same genes, the exact same upbringing, the exact same experiences, to the finest detail, and at a certain point in time they both have to make the same choice. Can they choose differently? If so, how and why, what would cause that?

    Now consider two moments where you lift your arm. The first time because you placed it on a hot stove, the second because I asked you to. Are you responsible for either/both?
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #183 - July 26, 2010, 09:19 PM

    Well, I believe our free will comes from our soul.
    So the two identical people in your hypothetical, do they have identical souls?
    Also both the decision of lifting my arm and the automated response doesn't come from the soul, perhaps with the exception if I rely on my soul to decide whether or not to trust you/ respond to you question of lifting my arm. But that would be extremely rare, most of the time the soul wouldn't be involved in either of the two. So yeah, my vision of the soul is that it is passive most of the time, and only intervenes in certain key-moments.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #184 - July 26, 2010, 09:30 PM

    Try to move your arm in a coma or when brain-dead or paralyzed. Let's see what happens to your freewill and soul then Smiley
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #185 - July 26, 2010, 09:34 PM

    Could you give me a reply?

    You had enough time to make new threads.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #186 - July 26, 2010, 09:44 PM

    Well, I believe our free will comes from our soul.
    So the two identical people in your hypothetical, do they have identical souls?
    Also both the decision of lifting my arm and the automated response doesn't come from the soul, perhaps with the exception if I rely on my soul to decide whether or not to trust you/ respond to you question of lifting my arm. But that would be extremely rare, most of the time the soul wouldn't be involved in either of the two. So yeah, my vision of the soul is that it is passive most of the time, and only intervenes in certain key-moments.

    You're at it again.
     Demonstrate this 'soul' you are throwing about like a plasterer chucks pink finish at a wall. Seems to be an awfully solid phenomenon to you, but you have to realise that many of us here don't imagine we have such a thing in the same way that you do.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #187 - July 26, 2010, 09:53 PM

    This guy has demonstrated how someone can be rationally irrational.


    Lol I know what you mean. Basically, use rational language or pose as rational yet merely as a disguise. I don't think he intentionally does it. I think he genuinely finds rationality attractive. He just needs to mature a little, then he will get the hang of it.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #188 - July 26, 2010, 09:55 PM

    Lol I know what you mean. Basically, use rational language or pose as rational yet merely as a disguise. I don't think he intentionally does it.


    I think a lot of us here used to do that when we are muslims.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #189 - July 26, 2010, 09:57 PM

    Hey, Abdul Fattah, I'd just like to ask you why you think Islam is logically consistent when you've been presented with a fundamental logical contradiction within the Qur'an itself.

    That is, that Allah is the Most Merciful of the merciful, and yet he does things which completely contravene mercy, such as eternally torturing someone for simple disbelief. Which, by the way, the vast majority of ordinary people would never do, let alone the most merciful of them.

    Before you say it's 'just an appeal to emotion' or the like, I'd like to show you that it is, in fact, a very basic logical contradiction, as it violates the law of identity.

    God cannot be both x (the Most Merciful) and not x at the same time, and in the same way.

    Since there are mere humans beings who are so merciful that they would not torture someone eternally for disobeying them, such people are therefore more merciful than the god of the Qur'an.

    The god of the Qur'an therefore is not and cannot be the Most Merciful of the merciful, and so the Qur'an's statement to that effect is logically contradictory with reality, and so therefore, is incorrect.

    Therefore the Qur'an, and Islam as a result, is not logically consistent.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #190 - July 26, 2010, 10:06 PM

    I think a lot of us here used to do that when we are muslims.


    True that. Perhaps an omen for Abdul Fattah

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #191 - July 26, 2010, 10:16 PM

    Hi olweasel,
    Sorry to keep you waiting ^_^
    Quote
    Catholicism is mysticism, but Islam is not?
    If anything, Islam revolves around very much the same mythos, spare the trinity and the pope.

    I beg to differ. Islamic creeds are self-consistent, Christianity (in my humble opinion) is filled with contradictions, which in turn require a whole bunch of mystical solutions to cover that up.

    Quote
    Islam and Catholicism both feature an omnipotent personal god, and more significantly

    ,
    I don't see how that would classify them as "mystical"

    Quote
    are among the only belief systems that incorporate belief in the threat of eternal damnation.

    Not the way I see it. I think every person will be judged by his/her actions and every action judged by its intention.

    Quote
    But the major difference is, that Islam in addition, preaches the silencing of critics to this very day.

    I don't think this is something Islam preaches, but something that grew as more and more countries started abusing Islam as a tool for dominance over the people.

    Quote
    You won't get any death threats for mocking Catholicism.

    Yes, stupid reactions I agree. Still doesn't convince me that Islam is wrong or anything, as clearly texture shows this is not what Islam preaches.
     
    Quote
    From there you'd have to show how Islam is logical. How do you consider your beliefs to be circular reasoning and then say they are logically consistent?

    I consider it logical because it is self-consistent (ie devoid of contradictions); and because it doesn't contradict science. So I accept that it is a belief, but I still consider it logical.

    Quote
    All your responses were defending your own personal faith in it, or begged the question, but didn't prove that Islam as an ideology is logical.

    Smiley
    I never said that Islam can be proven as an undeniable certainty.

    Quote
    The stronger your faith is, the more difficult it will be to see logical inconsistencies.

    I doubt that is true.

    Quote
    You sounded absolutely certain to me. But if that's what you say you intended, then I'll take your word.

    thx ^_^

    Quote
    But doesn't believing in Islam also mean believing all else is wrong?

    For most muslims, yes, For me no. See, I used to be a really really convinced atheist. Then when I converted to Islam, I realized that no matter how logical a thing might seem, it can still be wrong. So that meant that Islam could be wrong to, so I made it an issue to always remain critical, and every time a new piece of information is thrown at me, to re-evaluate along the road. It's not an easy decision, and most Muslim scholars will say I'm wrong and I should just have faith. But for me this is the only way I can have faith, and I think faith like this is much more meaningful either way.

    Quote
    What does the first creed of Islam say? You can't get any more clear than that.

    you mean the Shahada? Yeah I do believe that, I don't see how anything I said contradicted that. Perhaps we are talking with a different semantic value of the word "believe"?

    Hi BlackDog
    Obviously our soul would be limited and cannot make a comatose body move, I don't see how that's really an issue against the belief in a soul ^_^

    Hi sojournelumus
    Again I am perfectly aware that others might have different opinions, and I've expressed many times before that I realize my views are biased in the sense that they only work if you accept certain premise. Then again I believe that you cannot have any views at all without having biased premise. So in that sense I don't think I'm any different from anyone else, except perhaps that I'm fully aware of the biasedness of my views. I still think my views are the most logical explanation for the universe and everything in it though.

    Oh as for why I believe in the soul, and consider that logical:
        If one studies the ontology of time, starting from the scientific theory relativity, one arrives at the view of four-dimensionalism. Meaning that time is a dimension just as the three dimensions of space. That those four form a space-time-continuum. And more importantly, that objects are four-dimensional as well. Such a four dimensional object is the sum of all the three-dimensional parts of that object we percieve troughout time. So just as one can have spatial parts (your feet, your hands, your head), so to we have temporal parts (your body when you were 3 years old, your foot at age 5, your liver from 12 to 16 years, ...). Such four-dimensional objects would be completely static and motionless. Any change as we perceive it is the result of an illusion. an illusion created by the succesion of slighly different temporal parts. Kind of like how a motion-picture creates the illusion of motion by projecting static images in succesion. This implies  the existence of a soul, an immaterial entity enduring trough time rather then persisting over time like our four-dimensional body. Something that travels trough the different temporal, three-dimensional segments of your body.

    Hi zebedee
    I don't see any contradiction in God being the "most" merciful, and yet at the same time there being a limit to this mercy. It's not because he's the most mercifull that his mercy must be limitless. 
    As for the Human beings who would not torture anyone, consider that by not punishing evil, and thus by not bringing justice in the afterlife, God might actually be less merciful (towards those who are entitled to justice). So why give mercy to those who don't deserve it, and deprive those who do deserve it (and yes I think giving justice to some people is also an act of mercy).
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #192 - July 26, 2010, 10:26 PM

    I consider it logical because it is self-consistent (ie devoid of contradictions); and because it doesn't contradict science. So I accept that it is a belief, but I still consider it logical.
    Smiley


    Belief in FSM is self-consistent and consistent with science. And?

    Would appreciate a reply to my post about why God allowed Nazism.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #193 - July 26, 2010, 10:29 PM

    How does an illusion imply the existence of anything?
    Read my strap lines.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #194 - July 26, 2010, 10:38 PM

    Hi J4m3z
    I made a separate thread about the problem of evil, for a long answer to your question, go there. For a short answer: free will.
    As for the FSM. I think we both realize it's an argument ad absurdum, and it was very usefull against those Christian creationists who wanted to push creationism into science books. I on the other hand understand the difference between belief and knowledge, so I don't see how bringing up the FSM is useful against me. Unless of course, you think that the FSM is equally plausible as Islam? To which I'd have to say that I strongly disagree, but that I prefer to agree to disagree rather then actually wasting time debating the plausibility of an idea that was started as an argument ad absurdum.

    Hi sojournerlumus
    I don't think illusions imply anything. I deduced plausibility of my faith from other things.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #195 - July 26, 2010, 10:45 PM

    Firstly, find out what argumentum ad absurdem means.

    Secondly, free will? Been there, considered that. Only a short answer necessary: Allah being all-powerful could have easily created the physics of the world in such a way that stopped somebody if they were about to commit something evil. For example, he could have wired our brains so that whenever we have a motivation to do something evil, a neurone fires from our brains and activates a hormone that makes those motivations disappear.

    Too easy.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #196 - July 26, 2010, 10:52 PM

    Hi J4m3z
    I made a separate thread about the problem of evil, for a long answer to your question, go there. For a short answer: free will.
    As for the FSM. I think we both realize it's an argument ad absurdum, and it was very usefull against those Christian creationists who wanted to push creationism into science books. I on the other hand understand the difference between belief and knowledge, so I don't see how bringing up the FSM is useful against me. Unless of course, you think that the FSM is equally plausible as Islam? To which I'd have to say that I strongly disagree, but that I prefer to agree to disagree rather then actually wasting time debating the plausibility of an idea that was started as an argument ad absurdum.

    Hi sojournerlumus
    I don't think illusions imply anything. I deduced plausibility of my faith from other things.

    Such as?

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #197 - July 26, 2010, 10:58 PM

    Sojournerlumus,
    Read my website (or scroll up and read my replies to the handfull of people who asked before you) ^_^


    J4mez
    of course it was to easy, as I said, this is just the short version, if you want difficult goo to the thread in science and reason subforum about it. :p
    Also I'm perfectly aware what an argument ad absurdum means, I even followed Latin in school. Why is it that when you disagree with an opinion I hold, you assume it must be because I don't understand it. Are you that overconfident?
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #198 - July 26, 2010, 10:58 PM

    @Abdul Fattah

    Quote
    I don't see any contradiction in God being the "most" merciful, and yet at the same time there being a limit to this mercy. It's not because he's the most mercifull that his mercy must be limitless.


    Irrelevant.

    Quote
    As for the Human beings who would not torture anyone, consider that by not punishing evil, and thus by not bringing justice in the afterlife, God might actually be less merciful (towards those who are entitled to justice). So why give mercy to those who don't deserve it, and deprive those who do deserve it (and yes I think giving justice to some people is also an act of mercy).


    I don't think it's hard to see that infinite, and indeed horrific, punishment is not just. It'd be like someone stealing a loaf of bread and being punished by being boiled alive. But indeed, because the celestial punishment is ever-lasting, nothing that could be done to a person in life could be compared to it. Retribution for a crime must be proportionate to the crime itself, no?

    And of course, all that these people are 'guilty' of is not believing something that they may well find to be completely unbelievable. But even if it did necessitate retribution, to punish someone eternally for a finite crime is not even just let alone merciful.

    To be merciful means to show clemency, and not to be strictly just. Allah's 'justice' is irrelevant. Although perhaps there is a similar contradiction between the attributes of al-'Adl and al-Rahman.

    But my argument stands. To be just is fine, but the fact remains that there are those who are more merciful than the god of the Qur'an in that they would never torture someone eternally and thereby do something that completely contravenes both justice and mercy. Therefore, Allah cannot be the most merciful of the merciful.

  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #199 - July 26, 2010, 11:02 PM

    Well you just said the same as before, and I would reply the same as before, I don't think that such a level of forgiveness would be just, and thus I don't think it would be merciful. So unless you have something else to argue in favor of your moral high grounds, I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #200 - July 26, 2010, 11:09 PM

    What has justice got to do with mercy? It seems you're adding something into the equation that isn't really relevant.

    Unless you want to say that being just is showing mercy to the victims. But who are the victims? And why would what the 'criminal' did to them necessitate infinite punishment?

    Allah himself isn't the victim. He says that those who disbelieve only wrong themselves, as in 7:160, 9:70, 30:9, etc. So why is it just to punish someone eternally for simply not doing what is (allegedly) in their best interests?

  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #201 - July 26, 2010, 11:29 PM

    Which is more plausible? An invisible being who no one has seen or heard commands people to slaughter men, and children, take their women as slaves and have sex with them.  Abuse their wives and use violence to harm those who disagree with them peacefully all so that the men can enjoy lots of sex in heaven and the women can have their minds erased of all human emotions to become husband pleasing playmates or a all powerful being made of pasta who asks that his followers dress as pirates and has beer in heaven?  Of the two I would say the former is more absurd, not the latter.  

    Even if you think the above does not describe Islam how is it plausible that a God would allow such things to be carried on in his name?  

    Btw don't think that I am simply bashing on Islam just because.  If you word the acts of people who claim to be acting under God's command by their simple acts and not their pseudo reasoning behind it, it makes it sound less than logical which is what I did in the above post. 


    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #202 - July 26, 2010, 11:39 PM

    What has justice got to do with mercy? It seems you're adding something into the equation that isn't really relevant.

    Unless you want to say that being just is showing mercy to the victims. But who are the victims? And why would what the 'criminal' did to them necessitate infinite punishment?

    Allah himself isn't the victim...So why is it just to punish someone eternally for simply not doing what is (allegedly) in their best interests?



    Exactly - Well put!

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #203 - July 26, 2010, 11:58 PM

    Also I'm perfectly aware what an argument ad absurdum means, I even followed Latin in school. Why is it that when you disagree with an opinion I hold, you assume it must be because I don't understand it. Are you that overconfident?


    No it's perfectly simple. You used it in the wrong context.

    Argumentum ad absurdem is where you show how if you assume that my belief is true, other things would be implied by that belief which obviously absurd. Therefore, the original belief can't be true. But you didn't actually tell me what the absurd implications of belief in FSM are.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #204 - July 27, 2010, 12:01 AM

    Must control urge to use harsh witty comment.......

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #205 - July 27, 2010, 12:03 AM

    nah, go for it  grin12

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #206 - July 27, 2010, 12:11 AM

    He seems to have avoided me.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #207 - July 27, 2010, 12:14 AM

    nah I'll let him walk into it. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #208 - July 27, 2010, 10:58 AM

    Well, I believe our free will comes from our soul.
    So the two identical people in your hypothetical, do they have identical souls?


    I don't know if you've realised it, but you've just re-iterated what I said - the concept of 'free will' makes no sense.
     
    I was under the impression that all souls are different? It doesn't matter in any case, you tell me if they have identical souls and then answer the question please.

    Quote
    Also both the decision of lifting my arm and the automated response doesn't come from the soul, perhaps with the exception if I rely on my soul to decide whether or not to trust you/ respond to you question of lifting my arm. But that would be extremely rare, most of the time the soul wouldn't be involved in either of the two. So yeah, my vision of the soul is that it is passive most of the time, and only intervenes in certain key-moments.


    So effectively most decisions we make we are not responsible for. Right?
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #209 - July 27, 2010, 08:10 PM

    Islamic creeds are self-consistent, Christianity (in my humble opinion) is filled with contradictions, which in turn require a whole bunch of mystical solutions to cover that up.

     
    If Islam is self-consistent, then the Qur'an itself would have answered everyone's spiritual dilemmas.

    Why would you need to form a theodicy?

    You aren't any better than the Christians.

    In fact, what you do isn't much different. You try to conjure up a reconciliation.


    And then finally a third type of evil, in general all sorts of hardships and suffering that do not serve a direct purpose in this life. However even these can gain a new perspective if seen in the context of life being a test. There's a huge difference between a poor man who doesn't steal and a rich man who doesn't steal. From that perspective one could consider being poor as a blessing rather then a curse, as it can increase one's reward in the hereafter.



    ,
    I don't see how that would classify them as "mystical"


    Both consist of dogmas about god and the supernatural intervening in man's affairs on his behalf.

    Look at the storytelling about miracles, angels, and demons.



    Not the way I see it. I think every person will be judged by his/her actions and every action judged by its intention.


    I recall you saying earlier that you believe that if someone disbelieved, but had "genuine intention" in doing so, then he won't suffer eternal damnation.

    Is that what you said?


    I don't think this is something Islam preaches, but something that grew as more and more countries started abusing Islam as a tool for dominance over the people.


    I can provide you with several hadith about killing blasphemers.


    I consider it logical because it is self-consistent (ie devoid of contradictions); and because it doesn't contradict science. So I accept that it is a belief, but I still consider it logical.


    The Qur'an does have contradictions.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=6393.0

    And if the Qur'an is self-consistent, then why was there a need for the theory of abrogation?


    Apologists dodge the issue by claiming you misinterpreted, were out of context, or that they disagree with the other Muslims, and that Islam still makes sense - or that they believe in it just because.

    Most of us have seen the light at the end of that tunnel.


    For most muslims, yes, For me no. See, I used to be a really really convinced atheist. Then when I converted to Islam, I realized that no matter how logical a thing might seem, it can still be wrong.

     
    There's no point in telling a bunch of nonbelievers the story, unless you can actually provide a rational argument or evidence to prove to them that Islam is right.

    I also noted the wording of what you said. How is atheism not really logical, or wrong?


    Or at least, why did you settle for that conclusion? What exactly was the chain of thoughts behind it?

    I hope you're not going to tell me that you were moved by the beauty, depth, and consistency of the Qur'an. Cheesy
     

    This goes to remind me of MRasheed's story about how he allegedly used to be a quasi-Christian until he consciously embraced Islam the age of 20. It didn't help his case.


    So that meant that Islam could be wrong to, so I made it an issue to always remain critical, and every time a new piece of information is thrown at me, to re-evaluate along the road. It's not an easy decision, and most Muslim scholars will say I'm wrong and I should just have faith. But for me this is the only way I can have faith, and I think faith like this is much more meaningful either way.

     
    Do you believe just in case, or by Pascal's Wager?


    Oh as for why I believe in the soul, and consider that logical:
        If one studies the ontology of time, starting from the scientific theory relativity, one arrives at the view of four-dimensionalism. Meaning that time is a dimension just as the three dimensions of space. That those four form a space-time-continuum. And more importantly, that objects are four-dimensional as well. Such a four dimensional object is the sum of all the three-dimensional parts of that object we percieve troughout time. So just as one can have spatial parts (your feet, your hands, your head), so to we have temporal parts (your body when you were 3 years old, your foot at age 5, your liver from 12 to 16 years, ...). Such four-dimensional objects would be completely static and motionless. Any change as we perceive it is the result of an illusion. an illusion created by the succesion of slighly different temporal parts. Kind of like how a motion-picture creates the illusion of motion by projecting static images in succesion. This implies  the existence of a soul, an immaterial entity enduring trough time rather then persisting over time like our four-dimensional body. Something that travels trough the different temporal, three-dimensional segments of your body.


    You assume that souls must be in the 4th dimension?


    Well you just said the same as before, and I would reply the same as before, I don't think that such a level of forgiveness would be just, and thus I don't think it would be merciful. So unless you have something else to argue in favor of your moral high grounds, I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree.


    You sound as if you're talking down to us from the high ground of:

    "Whatever god does must certainly be just and called for, because he's god."

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Previous page 1 ... 5 6 78 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »