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 Topic: convinced rational muslim

 (Read 19080 times)
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  • convinced rational muslim
     OP - July 22, 2010, 08:23 PM

    Hi,
    I'm new to the site. I'm not sure what kind of environment to expect. I think some of you might have had very negative experiences with Islam and Muslims, but I hope we can still talk, and perhaps debate openly. A small introduction;

    I'm a 28y old guy, born and raised in the west. I work as an industrial electrician. And about 6 years ago I converted to Islam. Not because of a girl, not on a whim, but because I was, and still am convinced that it is true. Now, this might be somewhat controversial, but I consider myself a rational muslim. To some people that might seem like a contradiction in terms, but remember Russel Bertrand who said:

    "It would be perfectly possible to be a complete and absolute Rationalist in the true sense of the term and yet accept this or that dogma. The question is how to arrive at your opinions and not what your opinions are. The thing in which we believe is the supremacy of reason. If reason should lead you to orthodox conclusions, well and good; you are still a Rationalist."

    What am I doing here? Well I don't expect to convert any of you, that's certainly not my intention. But perhaps I might be able to show that things aren't as black and white as they might seem sometimes. As for what I expect to get out of it personally, if my faith can remain strong and logical, while critically analyzing it on this forum, I think it would yet again reaffirm the correctness of my faith.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #1 - July 22, 2010, 08:26 PM

    Welcome to the forums! parrot

    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #2 - July 22, 2010, 08:30 PM

    Welcome. Smiley

    I also used to consider myself a rational Muslim. Smiley

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #3 - July 22, 2010, 08:32 PM

    Welcome, Abdul-Fattah   Wonderful introduction, and i hope your visit/stay here is
    insightful for everyone Smiley   I am American, and was a "western" convert, as well.
    I would love to discuss with you how you came to the realization Islam was the
    right choice for you, and perhaps (politely) express and explain why I left Islam.

    AWESOME people on this forum, VERY well informed and some HIGHLY knowledgable
    scholars, as well Smiley

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #4 - July 22, 2010, 08:35 PM

    Welcome Abdul-Fattah!

    By the time I had been Muslim for 6 years, I described myself exactly as you have in your op. A year later I realized I was wrong Smiley

    I hear the rains, I see the fire, I feel the flame. It doesn't change the faces I want to blame for the shame I'm feeling.
    But the winds of change will blow again. And we're the lucky ones who travel on towards the sun.

    Can you hear it calling you?
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #5 - July 22, 2010, 08:41 PM

    Welcome Abdul-Fattah! Smiley
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #6 - July 22, 2010, 08:48 PM

    Welcome !  But  let the members read the full essay!




      
    Bertrand Russell
    Am I An Atheist Or An Agnostic?
    A Plea For Tolerance In The Face Of New Dogmas

    I speak as one who was intended by my father to be brought up as a Rationalist. He was quite as much of a Rationalist as I am, but he died when I was three years old, and the Court of Chancery decided that I was to have the benefits of a Christian education.

    I think perhaps the Court of Chancery might have regretted that since. It does not seem to have done as much good as they hoped. Perhaps you may say that it would be rather a pity if Christian education were to cease, because you would then get no more Rationalists.

    They arise chiefly out of reaction to a system of education which considers it quite right that a father should decree that his son should be brought up as a Muggletonian, we will say, or brought up on any other kind of nonsense, but he must on no account be brought up to think rationally. When I was young that was considered to be illegal.

    Sin And The Bishops

    Since I became a Rationalist I have found that there is still considerable scope in the world for the practical importance of a rationalist outlook, not only in matters of geology, but in all sorts of practical matters, such as divorce and birth control, and a question which has come up quite recently, artificial insemination, where bishops tell us that something is gravely sinful, but it is only gravely sinful because there is some text in the Bible about it. It is not gravely sinful because it does anybody harm, and that is not the argument. As long as you can say, and as long as you can persuade Parliament to go on saying, that a thing must not be done solely because there is some text in the Bible about it, so long obviously there is great need of Rationalism in practice. As you may know, I got into great trouble in the United States solely because, on some practical issues, I considered that the ethical advice given in the Bible was not conclusive, and that on some points one should act differently from what the Bible says. On this ground it was decreed by a Law Court that I was not a fit person to teach in any university in the United States, so that I have some practical ground for preferring Rationalism to other outlooks.

    Don't Be Too Certain!

    The question of how to define Rationalism is not altogether an easy one. I do not think that you could define it by rejection of this or that Christian dogma. It would be perfectly possible to be a complete and absolute Rationalist in the true sense of the term and yet accept this or that dogma. The question is how to arrive at your opinions and not what your opinions are. The thing in which we believe is the supremacy of reason. If reason should lead you to orthodox conclusions, well and good; you are still a Rationalist. To my mind the essential thing is that one should base one's arguments upon the kind of grounds that are accepted in science, and one should not regard anything that one accepts as quite certain, but only as probable in a greater or a less degree. Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality.

    Proof of God

    Here there comes a practical question which has often troubled me. Whenever I go into a foreign country or a prison or any similar place they always ask me what is my religion.

    I never know whether I should say "Agnostic" or whether I should say "Atheist". It is a very difficult question and I daresay that some of you have been troubled by it. As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one prove that there is not a God.

    On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods.

    None of us would seriously consider the possibility that all the gods of homer really exist, and yet if you were to set to work to give a logical demonstration that Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, and the rest of them did not exist you would find it an awful job. You could not get such proof.

    Therefore, in regard to the Olympic gods, speaking to a purely philosophical audience, I would say that I am an Agnostic. But speaking popularly, I think that all of us would say in regard to those gods that we were Atheists. In regard to the Christian God, I should, I think, take exactly the same line.

    Skepticism

    There is exactly the same degree of possibility and likelihood of the existence of the Christian God as there is of the existence of the Homeric God. I cannot prove that either the Christian God or the Homeric gods do not exist, but I do not think that their existence is an alternative that is sufficiently probable to be worth serious consideration. Therefore, I suppose that that on these documents that they submit to me on these occasions I ought to say "Atheist", although it has been a very difficult problem, and sometimes I have said one and sometimes the other without any clear principle by which to go. When one admits that nothing is certain one must, I think, also admit that some things are much more nearly certain than others. It is much more nearly certain that we are assembled here tonight than it is that this or that political party is in the right. Certainly there are degrees of certainty, and one should be very careful to emphasize that fact, because otherwise one is landed in an utter skepticism, and complete skepticism would, of course, be totally barren and completely useless.

    Persecution

    On must remember that some things are very much more probable than others and may be so probable that it is not worth while to remember in practice that they are not wholly certain, except when it comes to questions of persecution. If it comes to burning somebody at the stake for not believing it, then it is worth while to remember that after all he may be right, and it is not worth while to persecute him.

    In general, if a man says, for instance, that the earth is flat, I am quite willing that he should propagate his opinion as hard as he likes. He may, of course, be right but I do not think he is. In practice you will, I think, do better to assume that the earth is round, although, of course, you may be mistaken. Therefore, I do not think we should go in for complete skepticism, but for a doctrine of degrees of probability.

    I think that, on the whole, that is the kind of doctrine that the world needs. The world has become very full of new dogmas. he old dogmas have perhaps decayed, but new dogmas have arisen and, on the whole, I think that a dogma is harmful in proportion to its novelty. New dogmas are much worse that old ones. Thinking hard rofl
                                                                                                                                    1947

    That should tell us what he meant!


    @ Meredith is the parrot  smilie a welcome for a troll?



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #7 - July 22, 2010, 08:51 PM

    But perhaps I might be able to show that things aren't as black and white as they might seem sometimes.



    I don't like camel piss drinking rapist liars. The Prophet was a camel piss drinking rapist liar. Therefore I don't want to follow the Prophet Muhammad. Period.

    Also, there is no God.

    Quite simple, you see.It's pretty black and white for me.

    Lets chat.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #8 - July 22, 2010, 08:59 PM

    Why the hell do you have to sound so rude for?
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #9 - July 22, 2010, 09:00 PM

    well isnt that the pot calling the kettle black!   Cheesy Cheesy

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #10 - July 22, 2010, 09:01 PM

    Coz he smells a troll and is very allergic to them! Poor chap got to get his BP checked!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #11 - July 22, 2010, 09:02 PM

    Why the hell do you have to sound so rude for?


    Cos I have a small penis.



    @Abdul-Fatah

    Sorry, I was just keepin it real. Welcome to the forums.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #12 - July 22, 2010, 09:03 PM

    well isnt that the pot calling the kettle black!   Cheesy Cheesy


    Who was I rude to? If i was (doubt I was) it wasn't on purpose.
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #13 - July 22, 2010, 09:03 PM

    Cons absolutely adore the greys of life. Black and white is too dazzling for them.



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #14 - July 22, 2010, 09:05 PM

    Meredith is the parrot  smilie a welcome for a troll?


    A troll because you said so and all in one post?
    Who died and made you MOD?  Roll Eyes

    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #15 - July 22, 2010, 09:07 PM

    Hi, thanks for the many welcomes

    Hypocrucifier,
    I'm somewhat riddled as why you would insist on posting the full article. Not that I mind, I'm just curious about your motivation. I think perhaps you thought I was trying to make Bertrand look like a theist? If that's the case, that wasn't my intention. I simply wanted to argue that one shouldn't consider theists as irrational by default. I think that's what Russel Bertrand meant by that quote, and I don't see how the context of the article he wrote it in makes that quote any different.

    Iblis,
    I'm certainly not here to step on any toes or to pick a fight. I geuss you were just testing the waters. I guess we're bound to run into one another on this forum sooner or later ^_^
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #16 - July 22, 2010, 09:07 PM

    J&T your kafir status is at severe risk,our man is preparing for the kill!
    A troll because you said so and all in one post?
    Who died and made you MOD?  Roll Eyes


    Now u r being rude! Cheesy Cheesy I love being an ordinary member with the warts and all!



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #17 - July 22, 2010, 09:09 PM

    Hi, thanks for the many welcomes

    Hypocrucifier,
    I'm somewhat riddled as why you would insist on posting the full article. Not that I mind, I'm just curious about your motivation. I think perhaps you thought I was trying to make Bertrand look like a theist? If that's the case, that wasn't my intention. I simply wanted to argue that one shouldn't consider theists as irrational by default. I think that's what Russel Bertrand meant by that quote, and I don't see how the context of the article he wrote it in makes that quote any different.

    Iblis,
    I'm certainly not here to step on any toes or to pick a fight. I geuss you were just testing the waters. I guess we're bound to run into one another on this forum sooner or later ^_^


    With so many accusations being made of quoting out of context in debates[?] like these I thought it would help your cause if the full article was shown in the interests of transparency



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #18 - July 22, 2010, 09:14 PM

    Welcome to the forum, Abdul-Fattah. hugs  I hope you are truly open-minded.

    So tell us how do you reach the conclusion that Islam is the 'true' religion using reason and logic?


    @hypocrucifier:  Well done for posting the full essay of Bertrand Russell.  Puts his quote into context doesn't it.  Cheesy

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #19 - July 22, 2010, 09:15 PM

    Hi, thanks for the many welcomes

    Hypocrucifier,
    I'm somewhat riddled as why you would insist on posting the full article. Not that I mind, I'm just curious about your motivation. I think perhaps you thought I was trying to make Bertrand look like a theist? If that's the case, that wasn't my intention. I simply wanted to argue that one shouldn't consider theists as irrational by default. I think that's what Russel Bertrand meant by that quote, and I don't see how the context of the article he wrote it in makes that quote any different.

    Iblis,
    I'm certainly not here to step on any toes or to pick a fight. I geuss you were just testing the waters. I guess we're bound to run into one another on this forum sooner or later ^_^


    Quote
    Don't Be Too Certain!

      This is what the great man said! So when you took the Shahada you were lying if you claim to be a rationalist in the sense he meant.



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #20 - July 22, 2010, 09:17 PM

    Hi, thanks for the many welcomes

    Iblis,
    I'm certainly not here to step on any toes or to pick a fight. I geuss you were just testing the waters. I guess we're bound to run into one another on this forum sooner or later ^_^


    oo00ooh!  have no doubt you WILL   Cheesy

    btw, I love you, Iblis!! LOLOL

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #21 - July 22, 2010, 09:18 PM

    Who was I rude to? If i was (doubt I was) it wasn't on purpose.

    I think it was in reference to the jokey way you put killing ordinary Americans (J&T is an American)

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #22 - July 22, 2010, 09:18 PM

    Welcome Abdul-Fattah - what attracted you to Islam?
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #23 - July 22, 2010, 09:19 PM

    Welcome to the forum, Abdul-Fattah. hugs  I hope you are truly open-minded.

    So tell us how do you reach the conclusion that Islam is the 'true' religion using reason and logic?


    @hypocrucifier:  Well done for posting the full essay of Bertrand Russell.  Put's his quote into context doesn't it.  Cheesy


    We are secular humanists remember, esoteric entities like GOD don't fire our imagination.



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #24 - July 22, 2010, 09:21 PM

    Hi,
    I'm new to the site. I'm not sure what kind of environment to expect. I think some of you might have had very negative experiences with Islam and Muslims, but I hope we can still talk, and perhaps debate openly. A small introduction;


    This should be interesting, I'm glad you are here popcorn

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #25 - July 22, 2010, 09:26 PM


    @ Meredith is the parrot  smilie a welcome for a troll?


    There is no need for that - he has done nothing to make anyone think he is a troll.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #26 - July 22, 2010, 09:26 PM

    As for what I expect to get out of it personally, if my faith can remain strong and logical, while critically analyzing it on this forum, I think it would yet again reaffirm the correctness of my faith.


    Welcome!

    It's a good question: how do you know if your rational thinking is better or worse than another person's rational thinking? Anyone can justify anything, however ludicrous the reason. Some links:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUB4j0n2UDU
    http://users.tpg.com.au/users/tps-seti/baloney.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CognitiveDissonanceDiagram.jpg
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #27 - July 22, 2010, 09:27 PM

    Oh and welcome to the forum!

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #28 - July 22, 2010, 09:27 PM

     dance dance cheers



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: convinced rational muslim
     Reply #29 - July 22, 2010, 09:27 PM

    Iblis,
    I'm certainly not here to step on any toes or to pick a fight. I geuss you were just testing the waters. I guess we're bound to run into one another on this forum sooner or later ^_^


    See you in the ring. Homie.  cool2

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

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