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 Topic: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka

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  • Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     OP - July 13, 2010, 01:05 PM
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/politics/10612670.stm

    Conservative MP Philip Hollobone has tabled a private members bill to ban "certain face coverings" in public and he explains his objection to the burka.

    A ban on burka-like Islamic veils in all public places is expected to be passed by France's lower house of parliament and the new offence would carry a 150 euro fine and in some cases citizenship classes. It follows a similar vote for a ban in Belgium's parliament.
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  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #1 - July 13, 2010, 01:13 PM
    His arguments are as follows

    1: If you can see a woman's face she won't be a terrorist.
    2: If I can't see a woman's face then *I* find it difficult to talk to them.

    Seriously Hollobone, who gives a shit if your bigotry prevents you from feeling comfortable talking to someone with a cloth on their face?  Personally I struggle with people who wear sandals with white sports socks.

    As I always say the solution is to ensure that women who do not wish to wear them know that there is support (women's refuges etc) if they choose not to wear them but are being bullied into it.  The ones who want to wear them can, even if the reason for doing so is based on a delusional belief that some supreme being will be pleased with them.

    In the cases where the woman is being bullied into wearing them then a ban will probably just result in her oppressor forbidding her to even leave the house, then she will be in a much worse social position than before.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #2 - July 13, 2010, 01:24 PM
    Philip Hollobone, Salma Yaqoob and Boy George debate about it on the Daily Politics:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/politics/10616142.stm
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #3 - July 13, 2010, 01:42 PM
    but burkas aren't a must in Islam. only at least Hijab
    [13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
    [13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
    [13:37] <Fimbles> see
    [13:37] <Fimbles> you think i'd enjoy anything above 7 inches up my arse?
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #4 - July 13, 2010, 01:59 PM
    He needs to put forward a good argument for banning the burka.  There are valid reasons for wanting the burka to be banned but he isn't articulating them very well.

    Nigel Farage did a better job over here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGJgL93hqeM
    .
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #5 - July 14, 2010, 12:18 AM
    interesting. that was quick. Wonder if his bill will see the light of day.
    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

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  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #6 - July 14, 2010, 12:20 AM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on July 13, 2010, 01:13 PM
    Seriously Hollobone, who gives a shit if your bigotry prevents you from feeling comfortable talking to someone with a cloth on their face?  Personally I struggle with people who wear sandals with white sports socks.


    I struggle with people who wear sandals period.
    Currently ignoring:

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  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #7 - July 14, 2010, 12:26 AM
    Nigel Farage was doing well until he started talking about 3inch covering and eyes and the like. the face is the face! if you want to wear huge sunglasses with your scarf go ahead!
    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #8 - July 15, 2010, 06:12 AM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    Seriously Hollobone, who gives a shit if your BIGOTRY prevents you from feeling comfortable talking to someone with a cloth on their face? The ones who want to wear them can, even if the reason for doing so is based on a delusional belief that some supreme being will be pleased with them.


    The reasons for hijab (whether that is interpreted as a full facial covering or not) is given in Koran 33.59:

    Quote
    O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them . That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. .


    Clearly this verse is saying that the purpose of such attire is to make Muslim women identifiable AS Muslim women so that they will not be "annoyed"/molested/given trouble (depending on the translator). So women's Islamic dress (in whatever form) is to send a clear message out to the Kafirs "I am a MUSLIM woman, I don't want to have anything to do with you. leave me WELL alone!" You don't find CHOOSING to wear it a little "bigoted" then TheRationalizer?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #9 - July 15, 2010, 06:26 AM
    Do you have a ballpark estimate of the percentage of Muslim women who are aware of that verse?
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #10 - July 15, 2010, 06:52 AM
    I'm happy to accept yours. What would you say it is?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #11 - July 15, 2010, 06:57 AM
    I don't know. 10%-20% ?
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #12 - July 15, 2010, 07:39 AM
    Quote from: DH on July 15, 2010, 06:12 AM
    You don't find CHOOSING to wear it a little "bigoted" then TheRationalizer?


    At which point have I been bigoted?  Quote please.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #13 - July 15, 2010, 09:42 AM
    I don't like the concept of banning but I can't say I'm sorry that it got banned either.  If it were for me I would give people the right to discriminate against burqiyyas and niqabiyyas.  People would be allowed to refuse to serve them, talk to them and even have the ability to order them off the premises if their face is covered.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #14 - July 15, 2010, 09:43 AM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on July 15, 2010, 07:39 AM
    At which point have I been bigoted?  Quote please.



    He was not referring to you actually.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #15 - July 15, 2010, 09:48 AM
    Quote from: DH on July 15, 2010, 06:12 AM
    You don't find CHOOSING to wear it a little "bigoted" then TheRationalizer?


    Ah, I understand the question now.

    No, I don't.  I am sure some women who choose to wear it feel superiority in doing so but the Burqa isn't a sign of bigotry.  Just like there are many people at university who go around thinking they are superior to everyone else intellectually, but that doesn't make University a sign of bigotry.

    The Burqa in many cases is nothing more than an individual's delusion that some supernatural creator of the universe loves them even more than before for making the sacrifice of being uncomfortable.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #16 - July 15, 2010, 09:48 AM
    Quote from: ras111 on July 15, 2010, 09:42 AM
    I don't like the concept of banning but I can't say I'm sorry that it got banned either.  If it were for me I would give people the right to discriminate against burqiyyas and niqabiyyas.  People would be allowed to refuse to serve them, talk to them and even have the ability to order them off the premises if their face is covered.


    Why?  What problem do you have with them having their faces covered?  I presume you have talked to a woman in a Burqa?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #17 - July 15, 2010, 09:50 AM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on July 15, 2010, 07:39 AM
    At which point have I been bigoted?  Quote please.



    You refered to Philip Hollobone's antagonism towards the veil as "bigotry". I was asking you if you didn't think the Koran-based message that willingly wearing a veil was sending to the Kafirs isn't itself a tad bigoted? Do you?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #18 - July 15, 2010, 09:54 AM
    Quote from: DH on July 15, 2010, 09:50 AM
    You referedtp Philip Hollobone's antagonism towards the veil as "bigotry". I was asking you if you didn't think the Koran-based message that willingly wearing a veil was sending to the Kafirs isn't itself a tad bigoted? Do you?


    If the Koran says that women who do not wear the Burqa are inferior and should not be tolerated then in that regard it is bigoted.  I don't recall such verses calling out for the intolerance of non Burqa wearers though - can you quote them?

    In addition, if the Quran did say such a thing it wouldn't make a Burqa wearer a bigot - some I expect (possibly many) would be willing to volunteer to wear a burqa and also be perfectly willing to respect the wishes of others not to wear them.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #19 - July 15, 2010, 09:58 AM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    What problem do you have with them having their faces covered?


    The problem I have with championing Muslim women's "right" to wear Burqa (or any similar garb) in non-Muslim countries is my strong doubts that they would champion a NON-Muslim women's right NOT to cover themselves up in an Islamic state.

    Quote
    I presume you have talked to a woman in a Burqa?


    I have. Aware that the Koran-stated purpose of female Islamic dress (see above) I asked her if she could tell me the time.


    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #20 - July 15, 2010, 10:02 AM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer
    If the Koran says that women who do not wear the Burqa are inferior and should not be tolerated then in that regard it is bigoted.


    Here is the verse again:

    33.59: O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them . That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. .

    By whom do you think female Islamic dress (which includes Burqa) is intended to ensure Muslim women are recognised and "not annoyed"?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #21 - July 15, 2010, 10:08 AM
    Quote from: Shahid Raza on July 13, 2010, 01:59 PM
    He needs to put forward a good argument for banning the burka.  There are valid reasons for wanting the burka to be banned but he isn't articulating them very well.

    Nigel Farage did a better job over here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGJgL93hqeM

    He did an even better job over here...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bypLwI5AQvY



     Cheesy
    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
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  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #22 - July 15, 2010, 10:10 AM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on July 15, 2010, 09:48 AM
    Why?  What problem do you have with them having their faces covered?  I presume you have talked to a woman in a Burqa?


    I don't talk to people whose faces I can't see.. whatever the excuse..  No, I refuse to talk to someone in a burqa much the same way I would refuse to have a conversation with someone wearing a balaclava or a bike helmet.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #23 - July 15, 2010, 10:13 AM
    Quote from: DH on July 15, 2010, 09:58 AM
    The problem I have with championing Muslim women's "right" to wear Burqa (or any similar garb) in non-Muslim countries is my strong doubts that they would champion a NON-Muslim women's right NOT to cover themselves up in an Islamic state.


    Really, what has that got to do with anything?  In the UAE they wouldn't let your mom wear what she likes, so why should people in your country allow people to wear what they like?

    Don't you see?  If you dislike oppression through "clothes police" then that is exactly why you should let anyone wear whatever they like.

     
    Quote from: DH on July 15, 2010, 09:58 AM
    I have. Aware that the Koran-stated purpose of female Islamic dress (see above) I asked her if she could tell me the time.


    Sorry, by "talked to" I meant "held a conversation with" rather than "addressed a simple question to".  There are humans under those sheets, they respond when you talk to them, if you talk to them often enough it's very easy to tell them apart too.


    Quote from: DH on July 15, 2010, 10:02 AM
    Here is the verse again:
    33.59: O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them . That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. .


    Where is that saying that people who do not wear Burqas should not be tolerated?


    Quote from: ras111 on July 15, 2010, 10:10 AM
    I don't talk to people whose faces I can't see.. whatever the excuse..  No, I refuse to talk to someone in a burqa much the same way I would refuse to have a conversation with someone wearing a balaclava or a bike helmet.


    So, because YOU have a problem talking to people in certain clothes do you think that the world must confirm to your own irrational insecurity?  If a motorcycle police officer pulls you over in your car do you refuse to talk to them unless they take their helmet off?  I ask because many don't remove them.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #24 - July 15, 2010, 10:20 AM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on July 15, 2010, 10:13 AM
    So, because YOU have a problem talking to people in certain clothes do you think that the world must confirm to your own irrational insecurity?  If a motorcycle police officer pulls you over in your car do you refuse to talk to them unless they take their helmet off?  I ask because many don't remove them.


    Cut the drama out...  Nowhere have I said that I expect other people to do the same, I simply talked about what I would do.  

     If you feel comfortable talking to someone wearing a balaclava or carnival mask when in a bank or a restaurant then that is your choice, you stick to it and I will stick to mine.

      Those are my personal rules, if you don't like them don't to the same and don't talk to me, it is that simple.  All I was saying was that others who feel the same way should be allowed to do so, if the others have the right to cover up their faces.   If a motorcycle police officer does that, I would ask him to do it yes..  He cannot address me with a helmet on here either.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #25 - July 15, 2010, 10:25 AM
    Quote from: ras111 on July 15, 2010, 10:20 AM
    Cut the drama out...  Nowhere have I said that I expect other people to do the same, I simply talked about what I would do.  


    Considering the context of the discussion I inferred that you were in support of banning due to your own discomfort.  So is your position that you personally feel uncomfortable talking to them but would not support a ban?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #26 - July 15, 2010, 10:29 AM
    I've had times when it's been sunny that I've had my sunglasses on. and I've gone to the pub with a couple of friends and without realising it, had a long conversation with my sunglasses on. every time this has happened, they've asked me to take my sunglasses off cause they "can't see me" If the uk weather comes back try it yourselves.
    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #27 - July 15, 2010, 11:07 AM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on July 13, 2010, 01:13 PM
    Seriously Hollobone, who gives a shit if your bigotry prevents you from feeling comfortable talking to someone with a cloth on their face? 


    I don't know if Hollobone is a bigot, and I have no doubt that there are bigots attracted to this issue. But it would be really unfair to assume that all people who are unnerved by the burqa are bigots. Many people find it troublesome in a way that distinguishes it from other religious symbols.

    I'm against "banning" it in the way that he suggests. At the end of the day, even if we find it repellent, that is a problematic path to go down. But it is effectively banned in certain situations in civil society already - like banks and other places that can reserve the right to refuse entry to people with their faces covered. I'd like to see that aspect clarified. And work out a way to reach out to the women that are coerced and forced into wearing it, especially younger girls and teenagers.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #28 - July 15, 2010, 11:18 AM
    Quote from: billy on July 15, 2010, 11:07 AM
    I don't know if Hollobone is a bigot, and I have no doubt that there are bigots attracted to this issue. But it would be really unfair to assume that all people who are unnerved by the burqa are bigots.


    I'm not assuming that at all.  The topic of conversation is "banning the Burqa", not whether or not you like it.  If someone dislikes the Burqa (as I do) but doesn't think it should be banned then I think it is reasonable to expect them to make sure everyone is aware of their objection to the ban if they post a message saying how they dislike it.

    I think anyone who wants it banned is a bigot, unless they can prove to me there is a secular need for such a ban.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Conservative MP Philip Hollobone's bid to ban the burka
     Reply #29 - July 15, 2010, 11:22 AM
    Quote
    I think anyone who wants it banned is a bigot, unless they can prove to me there is a secular need for such a ban


    It is effectively banned in certain spaces in society.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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