Greetings

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- TheRationalizer
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Re: Greetings
Reply #30 - July 13, 2010, 11:24 AM

Quote from: AbbasAli on July 13, 2010, 11:21 AM
Honestly i think all religions on earth is sent by God but where later corrupted.

Islam is the only religion that made sense to me

Why do you think that they were all sent by god in the first place?

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
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Re: Greetings
Reply #31 - July 13, 2010, 11:27 AM

Quote from: IsLame on July 13, 2010, 11:16 AM
Hypo - Is that you in your new avatar?

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Re: Greetings
Reply #32 - July 13, 2010, 11:28 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on July 13, 2010, 11:17 AM
Isn't it that lesbian Muslim woman from the video posted recently? I can't tell without her Burqa on.

HehE yes! it's IRSHAD MANJI! Wish all Muslims were as intelligent as her!

The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
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Re: Greetings
Reply #33 - July 13, 2010, 11:30 AM

Hmmmmmmmm! Zakir naik all the way!

The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
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Re: Greetings
Reply #34 - July 13, 2010, 11:38 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on July 13, 2010, 11:24 AM
Why do you think that they were all sent by god in the first place?

No offense, Rationalizer, but if the guy says that Islam makes sense to him then isn't that enough? Fair play to him if that's what he chooses to believe.

You've made up your mind that Islam doesn't make sense, and I doubt he's going to persuade you that it's true with his subjective reasons for thinking it does make sense.

I'm not saying you can't challenge people on their beliefs but maybe it would simply be better to leave them to what they choose to believe, and if it's BS and they don't wanna live by it anymore then they'll surely arrive at that conclusion themselves.
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Re: Greetings
Reply #35 - July 13, 2010, 11:47 AM

I think challenging Muslims' beliefs is good. Helps them to think for themselves.

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Re: Greetings
Reply #36 - July 13, 2010, 11:48 AM

Quote from: Zebedee on July 13, 2010, 11:38 AM
No offense, Rationalizer, but if the guy says that Islam makes sense to him then isn't that enough? Fair play to him if that's what he chooses to believe.

I don't think he came here for people not to talk to him about his belief

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
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Re: Greetings
Reply #37 - July 13, 2010, 11:53 AM

Quote from: Zebedee on July 13, 2010, 11:38 AM

No offense, Rationalizer, but if the guy says that Islam makes sense to him then isn't that enough? Fair play to him if that's what he chooses to believe.

You've made up your mind that Islam doesn't make sense, and I doubt he's going to persuade you that it's true with his subjective reasons for thinking it does make sense.

I'm not saying you can't challenge people on their beliefs but maybe it would simply be better to leave them to what they choose to believe, and if it's BS and they don't wanna live by it anymore then they'll surely arrive at that conclusion themselves.

But the problem is these are extremely disturbed minds, they are not really comfortable with their beliefs unless they denigrate someone else's. They want to convince themselves that they are the ultimate in this universe, because the 'word of GOD' tells them so!

The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
Thomas Paine

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Re: Greetings
Reply #38 - July 13, 2010, 11:55 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on July 13, 2010, 11:48 AM
I don't think he came here for people not to talk to him about his belief

+1

Abbas,
By the way, I have no problem with moderate Muslims who are not advocating any kind of Sharia law which will infringe upon my freedoms. People should be free to believe whatever they wish so long as they keep it to themselves.

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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Re: Greetings
Reply #39 - July 13, 2010, 11:59 AM

Mate! He won't understand that!

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Re: Greetings
Reply #40 - July 13, 2010, 12:02 PM

Quote from: AbbasAli on July 13, 2010, 11:21 AM
Honestly i think all religions on earth is sent by God but where later corrupted.

Islam is the only religion that made sense to me

Good to have you on the forum Abbas.

Are the rest of your family, parents, cousins, uncles, aunts, etc. still Hindu? Does it make sense that an omnipotent god would send them all to Hell to burn for eternity simply because they were born in another religion and did not accept Islam?

Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
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Re: Greetings
Reply #41 - July 13, 2010, 12:03 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on July 13, 2010, 11:48 AM
I don't think he came here for people not to talk to him about his belief

Quote from: J4m3z on July 13, 2010, 11:47 AM
I think challenging Muslims' beliefs is good. Helps them to think for themselves.

Fair enough.

Personally, though, and I think the ex-Muslims here can understand this, I think people are perfectly capable of finding out for themselves if religion is really something they want to believe in or not. They don't need someone to teach them how to think or question.

I don't really care about arguing people out of their beliefs unless they start talking BS about how atheism means that eating babies is a-ok or that the Qur'an contains scientific miracles. But I couldn't care less about proselytising for atheism or agnosticism.
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Re: Greetings
Reply #42 - July 13, 2010, 12:05 PM

Quote from: hypocrucifier on July 13, 2010, 11:53 AM
But the problem is these are extremely disturbed minds, they are not really comfortable with their beliefs unless they denigrate someone else's. They want to convince themselves that they are the ultimate in this universe, because the 'word of GOD' tells them so!

I have no problem with convincing those kinds of people of the error of their beliefs.
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Re: Greetings
Reply #43 - July 13, 2010, 12:07 PM

But shouldn't that be a two way traffic?

The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
Thomas Paine

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
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Re: Greetings
Reply #44 - July 13, 2010, 12:07 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on July 13, 2010, 12:03 PM
Fair enough.

Personally, though, and I think the ex-Muslims here can understand this, I think people are perfectly capable of finding out for themselves if religion is really something they want to believe in or not. They don't need someone to teach them how to think or question.

I don't really care about arguing people out of their beliefs unless they start talking BS about how atheism means that eating babies is a-ok or that the Qur'an contains scientific miracles. But I couldn't care less about proselytising for atheism or agnosticism.

I was argued out of my belief. More accurately I was argued into a position where I wanted to see more of the argument and then was reasoned out of my belief. I am happy to do the same for others, but the difference between what I do and what religion does is that I don't push it. I'm an atheist on an ex-Muslim forum

If they choose to believe after the facts of reality have been presented to them then that is their choice, but it's better that they know the facts so that their decision can at least be an informed one.

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
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Re: Greetings
Reply #45 - July 13, 2010, 12:09 PM

polemics for atheism are important as they help the ones who are unsure and doubtful make up their mind and feel more confident instead of cowing into social pressure.

so dawkins and hitchens are doing a commendable job. but at an individual level, an atheist trying to talk out a strong believer would be wasting his own time in 99% of cases.

not very optimal.
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Re: Greetings
Reply #46 - July 13, 2010, 12:10 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on July 13, 2010, 12:03 PM
Fair enough.

Personally, though, and I think the ex-Muslims here can understand this, I think people are perfectly capable of finding out for themselves if religion is really something they want to believe in or not. They don't need someone to teach them how to think or question.

I don't really care about arguing people out of their beliefs unless they start talking BS about how atheism means that eating babies is a-ok or that the Qur'an contains scientific miracles. But I couldn't care less about proselytising for atheism or agnosticism.

I agree with Rationlizer & James.

I dont think Islam is harmless, and I have seen Muslims reevaluate their stance time & time again after debate. For some it caused their Islamic foundations to vibrate, and from their they went onto apostate. For others who were already weak in their faith, the whole thing came crashing down.

Its a debating forum in any case, thats what happens here.

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Re: Greetings
Reply #47 - July 13, 2010, 12:10 PM

Assuming that they are capable of imbibing the lesson in the first place! otherwise you might as well bang your head against the wall!

The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
Thomas Paine

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
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Re: Greetings
Reply #48 - July 13, 2010, 12:17 PM

Quote from: hypocrucifier on July 13, 2010, 12:07 PM
But shouldn't that be a two way traffic?

Not entirely sure what you mean by that. Please explain.

Quote from: TheRationalizer on July 13, 2010, 12:07 PM
I was argued out of my belief. More accurately I was argued into a position where I wanted to see more of the argument and then was reasoned out of my belief. I am happy to do the same for others, but the difference between what I do and what religion does is that I don't push it. I'm an atheist on an ex-Muslim forum

If they choose to believe after the facts of reality have been presented to them then that is their choice, but it's better that they know the facts so that their decision can at least be an informed one.

If you want to argue with people then fine. Speaking personally though, I really don't care about arguing with people if they keep it to themselves. If they start talking crap though, then I'll argue with them.

Quote from: s12345 on July 13, 2010, 12:09 PM
polemics for atheism are important as they help the ones who are unsure and doubtful make up their mind and feel more confident instead of cowing into social pressure.

so dawkins and hitchens are doing a commendable job. but at an individual level, an atheist trying to talk out a strong believer would be wasting his own time in 99% of cases.

not very optimal.

I'm all for writing books that criticise religion. I just don't think it's entirely polite or necessary to argue with religious people about their beliefs all the time. Best just leave them to it, unless they advance some ridiculous claim.
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Re: Greetings
Reply #49 - July 13, 2010, 12:17 PM

Quote from: a.ghazali on July 13, 2010, 12:02 PM
Good to have you on the forum Abbas.

Are the rest of your family, parents, cousins, uncles, aunts, etc. still Hindu? Does it make sense that an omnipotent god would send them all to Hell to burn for eternity simply because they were born in another religion and did not accept Islam?

Off course it makes sense., but to make them sensible one has to be come Muslim with his/her herat and soul a.ghazali . Allah says in that chapter AL-ANFAL (SPOILS OF WAR, BOOTY)

Quote
008.013: This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Messenger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Messenger-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

008.014: This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.

008.015: O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.

008.016: And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day-- unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company-- then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.

008.017: So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

008.018: This, and that Allah is the weakener of the struggle of the unbelievers.

May be Abbas Ali didn't read Quran. he should read that again and strive to convert all his FOOLISH pagan/hindu relative in to Islam. If any one questions Allah and his book "It is war against Islam/Allah and messenger"

SLEW THEM ALL.. and keep this in mind that you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them,

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
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Re: Greetings
Reply #50 - July 13, 2010, 12:21 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on July 13, 2010, 12:17 PM
If you want to argue with people then fine. Speaking personally though, I really don't care about arguing with people if they keep it to themselves. If they start talking crap though, then I'll argue with them.

I don't go out of my way to argue, unless I see Mormons riding their bikes

Quote from: Zebedee on July 13, 2010, 12:17 PM
I'm all for writing books that criticise religion. I just don't think it's entirely polite or necessary to argue with religious people about their beliefs all the time. Best just leave them to it,

Sure, most of the time it's a waste of time. If someone like Abbas is open minded enough to try to understand why people don't believe in Islam then at least he can gain that understanding even if ultimately he doesn't end up agreeing with it.

Quote from: Zebedee on July 13, 2010, 12:17 PM
unless they advance some ridiculous claim.

Such as "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"?

Reassuringly a search in Google for "Genesis" reveals that the band is far more popular than the book

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Re: Greetings
Reply #51 - July 13, 2010, 12:22 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on July 13, 2010, 12:17 PM

I'm all for writing books that criticise religion. I just don't think it's entirely polite or necessary to argue with religious people about their beliefs all the time. Best just leave them to it, unless they advance some ridiculous claim.

Islam/Muslim/Mullah/Imam/ Islamic Caliphs/Islamic Kings including Muhammad/Quran/Sunnah/Hadith "did all those advance any ridiculous claims Zebedee??"

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Greetings
Reply #52 - July 13, 2010, 12:26 PM

Quote from: IsLame on July 13, 2010, 12:10 PM
I agree with Rationlizer & James.

I dont think Islam is harmless, and I have seen Muslims reevaluate their stance time & time again after debate. For some it caused their Islamic foundations to vibrate, and from their they went onto apostate. For others who were already weak in their faith, the whole thing came crashing down.

Its a debating forum in any case, thats what happens here.

LOL! I knew a load of people would disagree with me.

I never said Islam was entirely harmless, I never said you can't argue people out of their beliefs, I simply said that it's not necessary to argue with religious people all the time.

Other people think differently, which is fine, it's a matter of personal opinion. But I personally just prefer only to argue with people if they initiate it by posing a question or by saying something that's untrue.

I don't see the need to argue people out of being Muslims/Christians/Jews or whatever else, if they're simply keeping it to themselves. Like I said, I'm not interested in proselytising for atheism and agnosticism. I don't care if people choose to be religionists.
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Re: Greetings
Reply #53 - July 13, 2010, 12:26 PM

OP, welcome in, and please just browse around the forum for a while in the various threads on different parts of Islamic justice and whatnot, hopefully then all of us can have a large debate about certain points and therefore help you to understand why some have left and also help you to form your own opinions on an informed basis.
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Re: Greetings
Reply #54 - July 13, 2010, 12:28 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on July 13, 2010, 12:26 PM
I don't see the need to argue people out of being Muslims/Christians/Jews or whatever else, if they're simply keeping it to themselves. Like I said, I'm not interested in proselytising for atheism and agnosticism. I don't care if people choose to be religionists.

People are disagreeing for the following reasons

1: He came to a forum where people have religious debates
2: He asked what we thought of Islam

If that doesn't qualify for a "Why do you believe it's true" discussion then I don't know what does

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
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Re: Greetings
Reply #55 - July 13, 2010, 12:33 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on July 13, 2010, 12:26 PM
I don't see the need to argue people out of being Muslims/Christians/Jews or whatever else, if they're simply keeping it to themselves. Like I said, I'm not interested in proselytising for atheism and agnosticism. I don't care if people choose to be religionists.

Unlike Islam, you and your atheism and agnosticism seem not to realize the great game of Numbers and conversions and political Islam. And you seem not to realize fundamental tenets of Islam.

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Greetings
Reply #56 - July 13, 2010, 12:39 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 13, 2010, 12:22 PM
Islam/Muslim/Mullah/Imam/ Islamic Caliphs/Islamic Kings including Muhammad/Quran/Sunnah/Hadith "did all those advance any ridiculous claims Zebedee??"

They certainly do, Sayyidna Yeezevee, which is why I criticise the Qur'an and Sunnah.
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Re: Greetings
Reply #57 - July 13, 2010, 12:44 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on July 13, 2010, 12:39 PM
They certainly do, Sayyidna Yeezevee, which is why I criticise the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Then you are enemy of Islam. My friends should beat YOU UP until you become pulp. That is just warning and if you continue with same criticism then a first class ticket to heavenly plane will be issued to you and send you to Allah home where Allah will take care of you in his barbeque pit with hot sauce rubbed around you..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Greetings
Reply #58 - July 13, 2010, 12:47 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 13, 2010, 12:33 PM
Unlike Islam, you and your atheism and agnosticism seem not to realize the great game of Numbers and conversions and political Islam. And you seem not to realize fundamental tenets of Islam.

Yeezevee, I may not have lived in Pakistan but I have a fairly decent theoretical understanding of the political component of Islam. I've got no problem with arguing with political Islamist loud-mouth types at all. Particualy little pseudo-intellectual types like Hamza Tzortzis, masquerading as 'moderates.'

But where I live, in the West, most Muslims do not really believe in the traditional, orthodox understanding of Islam, in which Shari'ah must take precedence over all other law, apostates must be killed, critics must be silenced, and offensive warfare must be waged in order to expand the reach of the Caliphate. I have absolutely no problem speaking against such an ideology.

But Muslims who are without this Medieval mindset, I couldn't care less.
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Re: Greetings
Reply #59 - July 13, 2010, 12:49 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on July 13, 2010, 12:44 PM
Then you are enemy of Islam. My friends should beat YOU UP until you become pulp. That is just warning and if you continue with same criticism then a first class ticket to heavenly plane will be issued to you and send you to Allah home where Allah will take care of you in his barbeque pit with hot sauce rubbed around you..

Yes, well. Luckily for me I don't live in Pakistan and so, I'm relatively free of the risk of having my house broken into and getting the shit kicked out of me by a bunch of raging Jama'at al-Islamiyya types.
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